'A Man Who Can Translate!' Jospeh Smith.

[jkwilliams]

13 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

Revelation 2

17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.’

That’s certainly a creative interpretation of Revelation. So, white is good; brown is occultic. 

[jkwilliams]

18 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

Let me be more transparent, occults (supernatural) is what someone would do with a rock found in a well and used it for means to translate Gold Plates.   Nothing JS did was supernatural or magic... what does the Bible say?

Leviticus 20

And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

You do realize that’s just your interpretation, right? Again, this says much more about you than it does about what the historical record shows. You are, for some reason, mightily troubled that Joseph Smith used folk-magic practices in his religious efforts. That leads you into this weird denial. 

I don’t get it. 

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

Excuse me! did you say he found it, where can you quote that for me?  

 

I thought you said it was a found stone. I might have concluded that based on it was a single stone and the interpreters were taken back. I will have to find the comment I am thinking of. 

[Calm]

Rjohnson7, can you clarify from where or who Joseph got the white stone just so I am not making incorrect assumptions, please. 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, rjohnson7 said:

 I explained already and the opposite of your point of bringing folks to Christ is happening with the progressive narrative that the Church lied about its history and many young folks are having faith crisis... you are please folks are going, I just want to keep the young people from leaving... so this particular topic may not be for you since translation method is of little importance to you. 

If someone has already concluded the Church lied or otherwise acted immorally on any particular point, and feels betrayed enough to leave, drilling down on the point of contention won't help. The interaction and discussion are no longer on an intellectual ("by study") or open ("by faith") plane, so something else must be introduced that represents Christ in some way -- any activity, gesture, conversation, etc. that introduces the Spirit into the one trying to render aid and helps dispel anger, fear, pride, etc. in both parties. The same approach can be used with those who are struggling as they align their study and faith to become more confident in their approach to the topic of concern. This approach may still be refused by the offended party, and those who are offended and yet seek help proactively are more receptive.

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

That’s certainly a creative interpretation of Revelation. So, white is good; brown is occultic. 

 

34 minutes ago, Calm said:

I thought you said it was a found stone. I might have concluded that based on it was a single stone and the interpreters were taken back. I will have to find the comment I am thinking of. 

Didn't the Church used to display the Sally Chase brown stone in a museum, or some such thing?

[CV75]

57 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

You do realize that’s just your interpretation, right? Again, this says much more about you than it does about what the historical record shows. You are, for some reason, mightily troubled that Joseph Smith used folk-magic practices in his religious efforts. That leads you into this weird denial. 

I don’t get it. 

If someone expresses the idea that "Joseph Smith used folk-magic practices in his religious efforts [PERIOD]," we have an opportunity for context including the evolution of his methods for exercising his innate spiritual gifts, the gift of the Holy Ghost and those attendant gifts, and keys of the kingdom as they were restored as the religion evolved over his tenure as a prophet (let's say, 1820 - 1844). It is a good subject to explore even without the [PERIOD]

[jkwilliams]

58 minutes ago, CV75 said:

If someone expresses the idea that "Joseph Smith used folk-magic practices in his religious efforts [PERIOD]," we have an opportunity for context including the evolution of his methods for exercising his innate spiritual gifts, the gift of the Holy Ghost and those attendant gifts, and keys of the kingdom as they were restored as the religion evolved over his tenure as a prophet (let's say, 1820 - 1844). It is a good subject to explore even without the [PERIOD]

Sure, but denial isn’t really exploring the subject. 

[Tacenda]

@rjohnson7 Wow, there is a wealth of information here on this faithful site that you can skim through, I found a ton of information by the opening poster!  

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by Tacenda

[jonah747]

22 hours ago, ksfisher said:

I'm not sure how this relates to the translation of the Book of Mormon.

I was extending the question - Has the Urim and Thummim or the seer stone ever been
used by the President of the LDS church to translate other records?

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, jonah747 said:

I was extending the question - Has the Urim and Thummim or the seer stone ever been
used by the President of the LDS church to translate other records?

As far as I know they have not.

How does this relate to the translation of the Book of Mormon?

[jonah747]

Just now, ksfisher said:

As far as I know they have not.

How does this relate to the translation of the Book of Mormon?

It does not.  Just wondering about any post Book of Mormon uses.

[Calm]

17 hours ago, ttribe said:

 

Didn't the Church used to display the Sally Chase brown stone in a museum, or some such thing?

There was a seerstone displayed at the Church History Library iirc, but I don’t know if it was that one or not. 

[cujo22]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

There was a seerstone displayed at the Church History Library iirc, but I don’t know if it was that one or not. 

It was a brown stone. I remember seeing it.

[jkwilliams]

35 minutes ago, cujo22 said:

It was a brown stone. I remember seeing it.

I vaguely recall having seen it on display at either the church history museum or the library. It’s been many years, though. 

[CV75]

18 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Sure, but denial isn’t really exploring the subject. 

...either.

[Benjamin McGuire]

2 hours ago, jonah747 said:

I was extending the question - Has the Urim and Thummim or the seer stone ever been used by the President of the LDS church to translate other records?

Yes. Although we have to have to clarify the terminology.

The tool provided with the Gold Plates is generally identified as the Nephite interpreters.

Seer stones are called seer stones.

In the spring of 1833, William Phelps makes the suggestion for the first time that seer stones and the Nephite Interpreters could be identified as a Urim and Thummim. He does this because he was reading through a book titled Jahn's Biblical Archaeology. His copy was a translation by Thomas Upham published in 1832. He refers to, and quotes from this book in his newspaper (The Evening and the Morning Star) several times. Phelps is particularly interested in the connection made between the Urim and Thummim in Ancient Israel and the Breastplate of the High Priest of Israel. Although he doesn't understand the way that a Urim and Thummim were used in ancient Israel (there was nothing similar in the way that the Nephite Interpreters were used and the way that the ancient Urim and Thummim were used), the comparison became popular with the early members of the LDS movement. In fact, what is now D&C 10, originally didn't have a reference to the Urim and Thummim when it was revealed in 1829. That term was added in an 1835 reworked version of the text. You can see the original here, and the current version here. This is important because whenever you read about the Urim and Thummim, it can refer to (A) the Nephite Interpreters or (B) the seer stone(s), or (C) both the Nephite Interpreters and the seers stones taken together.

As far as we can tell from the historical record, the Nephite Interpreters were taken from Joseph Smith along with the gold plates when the 116 page manuscript was lost. When the gold plates were returned, the Nephite Interpreters were not returned, and Joseph completed the translation of the Book of Mormon with a seer stone. Joseph Smith also used a seer stone for several revelations that became part of the D&C. In particular, he used a seer stone to produce D&C 7, which claims to be a translation of a record written by John the Apostle. There are a number of historical accounts which claim that Joseph Smith translated at least some of the Book of Abraham text using a seer stone.

While Joseph Smith used seer stones (and the Nephite interpreters), either by himself or with the assistance of others, no subsequent leader of the LDS Church did so.

The use of seer stones was not limited to Joseph Smith - but I'm not remembering any uses in a religious context. Another somewhat well known contemporary user of a seer stone (who was at one point an active member of the LDS Church) was the Washoe Seeress.

[jonah747]

22 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

As far as we can tell from the historical record, the Nephite Interpreters were taken from Joseph Smith along with the gold plates when the 116 page manuscript was lost. When the gold plates were returned, the Nephite Interpreters were not returned, and Joseph completed the translation of the Book of Mormon with a seer stone.

What are the Nephite Interpreters?

[jkwilliams]

35 minutes ago, jonah747 said:

What are the Nephite Interpreters?

The urim and thummim (the two stones set into a “bow” attached to a breastplate).

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

The urim and thummim (the two stones set into a “bow” attached to a breastplate).

Which is not the same as the Urim and Thummim (the breastplate is of a different design) in the Bible according to scholars and maybe the Church, not sure…just saying in case Jonah thinks we believe this.  I am not sure if Jonah is a member since he asked what the interpreters were.  He sounds informed, but scanning his posts, he could have learned everything easily from research if curious about us.

This has a picture of the breastplate that is described in the OT, which is nothing like the breastplate that held the Nephite interpreters.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/old-testament-study-guide-for-home-study-seminary-students-2015/introduction-to-1-samuel/unit-18-day-3-1-samuel-25-31?lang=eng#p17

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by Calm

[tagriffy]

36 minutes ago, jonah747 said:

What are the Nephite Interpreters?

From the Book of Mormon:

Quote

Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can a translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer. (Mosiah 8:13)

The interpreters were apparently stones (Alma 37:23-24) most prominently used to translate the Jaredite record for the Nephites. They were hidden by Moroni along with the plates (Ether 4:5) and were among the items found by Joseph Smith along with the plates (JS-H 59).

[Benjamin McGuire]

22 hours ago, jonah747 said:

What are the Nephite Interpreters?

The Nephite Interpreters were a pair of stones, set into a frame so that they looked like modern glasses or spectacles. Joseph Smith, in the earliest version of his history (written in 1832) wrote this:

Quote

the Lord had prepared spectacles for to read the Book

jkwilliams wrote:

21 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

The urim and thummim (the two stones set into a “bow” attached to a breastplate).

But, as I keep noting, this is a problematic claim, since the term Urim and Thummim isn't used in any historical record to refer to the Nephite Interpreters until the spring of 1833, when it was suggested by William Phelps that the Nephite Interpreters could be considered oracles, and so could be called a Urim and Thummim. The same was true for the seer stones. So when we see the term Urim and Thummim, we can only tell from context whether or the term refers to the Nephite Interpreters, to seer stones, or to both combined.

The bow wasn't attached to the breastplate. Although Joseph describes the Nephite Interpreters as spectacles, this is simply because of a similarity in form. They were too large to be used that way. Martin Harris described them this way:

Quote

The two stones set in a bow of silver were about two inches in diameter, perfectly round, and about five-eighths of an inch thick at the centre; but not so thick at the edges where they came into the bow. They were joined by a round bar of silver, about three-eighths of an inch in diameter, and about four inches long, which, with the two stones, would make eight inches.

In an 1891 Interview, William Smith (Joseph's brother) reported that:

Quote

Among other things we inquired minutely about the Urim and Thummim and the breastplate. We asked him what was meant by the expression "two rims of a bow," which held the former. He said a double silver bow was twisted into the shape of the figure eight, and the two stones were placed literally between the two rims of a bow. At one end was attached a rod which was connected with the outer edge of the right shoulder of the breast-plate. By pressing the head a little forward, the rod held the Urim and Thummim before the eyes much like a pair of spectacles. A pocket was prepared in the breastplate on the left side, immediately over the heart. When not in use the Urim and Thummim was placed in this pocket, the rod being of just the right length to allow it to be so deposited. This instrument could, however, be detached from the breastplate and his brother said Joseph often wore it detached when away from home, but always used it in connection with the breastplate when receiving official communications, and usually so when translating as it permitted him to have both hands free to hold the plates.

William Smith (the same as mentioned above) published this statement in 1883:

Quote

He translated them by means of the Urim and Thummim, (which he obtained with the plates), and the power of God. The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God.

And this illustrates the later problems created by language. Is William here referring to the seer stones, to the Nephite Interpreters, or to both?