'A Man Who Can Translate!' Jospeh Smith.

[Kenngo1969]

Call me crazy, but here's where I think that Joseph Smith's brief, unsuccessful career as a "money digger" has value when it comes to lending some credibility to the historical claims (many of those claims involve supernatural events, it is true, but, still, the claims are part of the historical record) of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Notwithstanding the Testimony of the Three Witnesses and of the Eight Witnesses, respectively, many people today are skeptical that the plates ever even existed, but Joseph Smith's former money digging associates were convinced enough of their reality that they wanted "a piece of that action" (my phrase, of course).

[CV75]

14 hours ago, rjohnson7 said:

Thx, you're right.  The company of money diggers.

Even better: "the company of the money diggers," suggesting Jospeh was not one.

[rjohnson7]

12 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I doubt (sorry) it's all church history, not saying you said that, but maybe they aren't happy with the church's stance on gay marriage and a few other things. 

They are pushing for two biggies right now, same sex marriage in the Church and Women holding the Priesthood.... 

[rjohnson7]

52 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Even better: "the company of the money diggers," suggesting Jospeh was not one.

Words have meaning and you obviously read carefully between the lines... I agree, great post. 

[rjohnson7]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Call me crazy, but here's where I think that Joseph Smith's brief, unsuccessful career as a "money digger" has value when it comes to lending some credibility to the historical claims (many of those claims involve supernatural events, it is true, but, still, the claims are part of the historical record) of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Notwithstanding the Testimony of the Three Witnesses and of the Eight Witnesses, respectively, many people today are skeptical that the plates ever even existed, but Joseph Smith's former money digging associates were convinced enough of their reality that they wanted "a piece of that action" (my phrase, of course).

He made a claim that after his being hired by Hale as a worker to find treasure, that the label money digger began to be a criticism of JS. 

[rjohnson7]

5 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Sorry, but pretending the seer stones never happened is the real “corrupting” of church history. At some point young church members will learn the history, and all you’ll have done is deceive them, which is worse. I don’t think anyone is “immune” to a faith crisis, but lying to the youth doesn’t help. 

I see, might you be considered a progressive?  Yes, JS had a brown stone, he also had a white stone, but you can not show he ever used it to translate... nobody ever saw the plates, the seer stone for JS was told not to show anyone.  JS translated with a blanket or covering between him and the scribe... 

[ksfisher]

8 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

JS had a brown stone, he also had a white stone, but you can not show he ever used it to translate... nobody ever saw the plates, the seer stone for JS was told not to show anyone.  JS translated with a blanket or covering between him and the scribe... 

I don't think any of this is of primary importance.  Why is it important what was used to translate?  The Book of Mormon wasn't written to be translated, it was written to bring people to Christ.  If we focus on the how, to the detriment of the why, we lose focus on Christ.  Joseph Smith could have translated with tea leaves and chicken entrails for all I care.  The point is that he did, through the gift and power of God, translate.

[jkwilliams]

58 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

I see, might you be considered a progressive?  Yes, JS had a brown stone, he also had a white stone, but you can not show he ever used it to translate... nobody ever saw the plates, the seer stone for JS was told not to show anyone.  JS translated with a blanket or covering between him and the scribe... 

No, I’m a filthy apostate. I’m just saying that it’s weird that you think the color of a stone is what determines whether it’s occult or not. 

[jonah747]

45 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I don't think any of this is of primary importance.  Why is it important what was used to translate?  The Book of Mormon wasn't written to be translated, it was written to bring people to Christ.  If we focus on the how, to the detriment of the why, we lose focus on Christ.  Joseph Smith could have translated with tea leaves and chicken entrails for all I care.  The point is that he did, through the gift and power of God, translate.

Most people inquiring of the translation process would want to know the "how" to the question
"How did Joseph Smith translate the Book of Mormon?"   This 2020 Liahona article has a good
description.

But has this method ever been used after the work on the Book of Mormon or Pearl of Great Price
to translate other ancient records?

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

No, I’m a filthy apostate. I’m just saying that it’s weird that you think the color of a stone is what determines whether it’s occult or not. 

And he seems to eschew a current prophet telling the members it's with the brown stone. Copy and pasted the below:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seer_stone_(Latter_Day_Saints)#:~:text=In dictating the Book of,Mormon using the single chocolate-

After finishing the Book of Mormon translation, Smith is said to have given his brown seer stone to Oliver Cowdery, but he occasionally used his white stone to gain revelations, including his translation of what later became known as the Book of Abraham.^[44] There is no evidence that Smith used the stone to dictate any of the Doctrine and Covenants revelations after November 1830.^[45] During his work on his Bible translation, Smith told Orson Pratt he had stopped using the stone because he had become acquainted with "the Spirit of Prophecy and Revelation" and no longer needed it.^[46] Nevertheless, in 1855, Brigham Young told the apostles that Smith had had five seer stones, and Young made it clear that Smith "did not regard his seer stones simply as relics of his youth" but had found others while church president.^[47]

According to apostle Joseph Fielding Smith, the LDS Church owns one of Smith's seer stones.^[48][49] Nevertheless, since the nineteenth century, no president of the church has openly used such a stone in his role as "prophet, seer, and revelator".^{[citation needed]}

In August 2015, the LDS Church released images of one of Smith's seer stones—a rounded, smoothed, brown and black stone—in a volume of the Joseph Smith Papers Project containing the printer's manuscript of the Book of Mormon.^[1][2] The stone shown in the released images has been identified by geologists as a form of jasper, found in a banded iron formation, thus called banded jasper.

[ksfisher]

3 minutes ago, jonah747 said:

But has this method ever been used after the work on the Book of Mormon or Pearl of Great Price
to translate other ancient records?

What method?

[jonah747]

3 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

What method?

The "Urim and Thummim" (two clear stones) or the seer stone.

[Tacenda]

33 minutes ago, jonah747 said:

The "Urim and Thummim" (two clear stones) or the seer stone.

Not according to the wiki I posted above.

[ksfisher]

47 minutes ago, jonah747 said:

The "Urim and Thummim" (two clear stones) or the seer stone.

I'm not sure how this relates to the translation of the Book of Mormon.

[rjohnson7]

3 hours ago, ksfisher said:

I don't think any of this is of primary importance.  Why is it important what was used to translate?  The Book of Mormon wasn't written to be translated, it was written to bring people to Christ.  If we focus on the how, to the detriment of the why, we lose focus on Christ.  Joseph Smith could have translated with tea leaves and chicken entrails for all I care.  The point is that he did, through the gift and power of God, translate.

 I explained already and the opposite of your point of bringing folks to Christ is happening with the progressive narrative that the Church lied about its history and many young folks are having faith crisis... you are please folks are going, I just want to keep the young people from leaving... so this particular topic may not be for you since translation method is of little importance to you. 

[rjohnson7]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

I'm not sure how this relates to the translation of the Book of Mormon.

 

Just now, rjohnson7 said:

 I explained already and the opposite of your point of bringing folks to Christ is happening with the progressive narrative that the Church lied about its history and many young folks are having faith crisis... you are please folks are going, I just want to keep the young people from leaving... so this particular topic may not be for you since translation method is of little importance to you. 

Pres. Nelson is quoted as saying the Urim and Thummim seer stones (plural) ... not one stone but more then one as in the Urim and Thummim spectacles that were used.   The seer stone in a hat was the one stone that looked like a brown chocolate rock. 

[rjohnson7]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

No, I’m a filthy apostate. I’m just saying that it’s weird that you think the color of a stone is what determines whether it’s occult or not. 

Chuckle.  What? never said anything about color and what it determines...  I think this topic is not for you. 

[rjohnson7]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

And he seems to eschew a current prophet telling the members it's with the brown stone. Copy and pasted the below:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seer_stone_(Latter_Day_Saints)#:~:text=In dictating the Book of,Mormon using the single chocolate-

After finishing the Book of Mormon translation, Smith is said to have given his brown seer stone to Oliver Cowdery, but he occasionally used his white stone to gain revelations, including his translation of what later became known as the Book of Abraham.^[44] There is no evidence that Smith used the stone to dictate any of the Doctrine and Covenants revelations after November 1830.^[45] During his work on his Bible translation, Smith told Orson Pratt he had stopped using the stone because he had become acquainted with "the Spirit of Prophecy and Revelation" and no longer needed it.^[46] Nevertheless, in 1855, Brigham Young told the apostles that Smith had had five seer stones, and Young made it clear that Smith "did not regard his seer stones simply as relics of his youth" but had found others while church president.^[47]

According to apostle Joseph Fielding Smith, the LDS Church owns one of Smith's seer stones.^[48][49] Nevertheless, since the nineteenth century, no president of the church has openly used such a stone in his role as "prophet, seer, and revelator".^{[citation needed]}

In August 2015, the LDS Church released images of one of Smith's seer stones—a rounded, smoothed, brown and black stone—in a volume of the Joseph Smith Papers Project containing the printer's manuscript of the Book of Mormon.^[1][2] The stone shown in the released images has been identified by geologists as a form of jasper, found in a banded iron formation, thus called banded jasper.

Palmyra resident Pomeroy Tucker, who worked on the publication of the Book of Mormon, remembered that Joseph Smith’s seer stone had a “whitish, glassy appearance, though opaque, resembling quartz” in his 1867 book. Other late sources claiming to have interviewed early Palmyrans reflected Tucker’s description of the stone, making it difficult to know if they were original observations or mimicking his more informed, publicly declared opinion. Nevertheless, they stated that Joseph Smith used a white stone.

 

Unlike his brown stone, Joseph Smith did not give his white stone away. In fact, the Nauvoo Apostles remember him showing them his seer stone, and they imply that he may have been using it in some way. Joseph showed Wilford Woodruff his white stone in 1841, years before Woodruff ever saw the brown stone (which was presumably in Oliver Cowdery’s possession until 1850). During that time, Joseph had been working on the Book of Abraham and preparing the Nauvoo Temple endowment. On 27 December 1841, Wilford Woodruff wrote that Joseph showed him his seer stone at a meeting with the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. From the fall of 1841 to the summer of 1842, Wilford Woodruff called Joseph Smith “Joseph the seer” in his journal numerous times.

Joseph also showed the white stone to the Twelve Apostles when they met together, followed by a speech that described the white stone as his own personal stone. Brigham Young recorded, “I met with the Twelve at brother Joseph’s. He conversed with us in a familiar manner on a variety of subjects, and explained to us the Urim and Thummim, which he found with the plates, called in the Book of Mormon the Interpreters.”

Young also declared that Joseph “showed us his stone.” Joseph then explained “that every man who lived on the earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness, and most of those who do find one make an evil use of it.”

https://www.ldsliving.com/joseph-smith-had-a-second-seer-stone-heres-what-we-know-about-it/s/83084

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by rjohnson7

[ksfisher]

18 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

 ... you are please folks are going, I just want to keep the young people from leaving... so this particular topic may not be for you since translation method is of little importance to you. 

I haven't been pleased about people leaving the church since I stopped beating my wife.

A testimony of Christ is what is keeps people in the church, not a belief, or disbelief, in what color stone was used to translate the plates.

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

Chuckle.  What? never said anything about color and what it determines...  I think this topic is not for you. 

You appear to be okay with the story if he used a white stone he found to translate, but not if he used a brown stone. If I haven’t understood you correctly, could you clarify please?

[jkwilliams]

21 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

Chuckle.  What? never said anything about color and what it determines...  I think this topic is not for you. 

You said one stone was occultic and the other wasn’t. What’s the difference other than color? 

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

You appear to be okay with the story if he used a white stone he found to translate, but not if he used a brown stone. If I haven’t understood you correctly, could you clarify please?

That’s how I read it. 🤷‍♂️

[rjohnson7]

46 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

You said one stone was occultic and the other wasn’t. What’s the difference other than color? 

Let me be more transparent, occults (supernatural) is what someone would do with a rock found in a well and used it for means to translate Gold Plates.   Nothing JS did was supernatural or magic... what does the Bible say?

Leviticus 20

And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

[rjohnson7]

53 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

You said one stone was occultic and the other wasn’t. What’s the difference other than color? 

Revelation 2

17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.’

[rjohnson7]

59 minutes ago, Calm said:

You appear to be okay with the story if he used a white stone he found to translate, but not if he used a brown stone. If I haven’t understood you correctly, could you clarify please?

Excuse me! did you say he found it, where can you quote that for me?  

In Doctrine and Covenants 130:10-11 (Apr 2, 1843) we read:

Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

Joseph Fielding Smiths writings on Seer Stones

SEER STONE NOT USED IN BOOK OF MORMON TRANSLATION. We have been taught since the days of the Prophet that the Urim and Thummim were returned with the plates to the angel. We have no record of the Prophet having the Urim and Thummim after the organization of the Church. Statements of translations by the Urim and Thummim after that date are evidently errors. The statement has been made that the Urim and Thummim was on the altar in the Manti Temple when that building was dedicated. The Urim and Thummim so spoken of, however, was the seer stone which was in the possession of the Prophet Joseph Smith in early days. This seer stone is now in the possession of the Church.

While the statement has been made by some writers that the Prophet Joseph Smith used a seer stone part of the time in his translating of the record, and information points to the fact that he did have in his possession such a stone, yet there is no authentic statement in the history of the Church which states that the use of such a stone was made in that translation. The information is all hearsay, and personally, I do not believe that this stone was used for this purpose. The reason I give for this conclusion is found in the statement of the Lord to the Brother of Jared as recorded in Ether 3:22-24.

These stones, the Urim and Thummim which were given to the Brother of Jared, were preserved for this very purpose of translating the record, both of the Jaredites and the Nephites. Then again the Prophet was impressed by Moroni with the fact that these stones were given for that very purpose.  It hardly seems reasonable to suppose that the Prophet would substitute something evidently inferior under these circumstances. It may have been so, but it is so easy for a story of this kind to be circulated due to the fact that the Prophet did possess a seer stone, which he may have used for some other purposes.

Oliver Cowdery:  These were days never to be forgotten; to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven, awakened the utmost gratitude of this bosom! Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated with the Urim and Thummim, or, as the Nephites would have said, “interpreters,” the history or record called “The Book of Mormon.”