'A Man Who Can Translate!' Jospeh Smith.

[rjohnson7]

No on seer stone in a hat, yes on Urim and Thummin as the primary reason and means for the translation of the BOM.   JS and Oliver Cowdery were both first hand witnesses to the means and both claimed translation by the Urim and Thummim...   "A Man Who Can Translate'   written by Jonathan Neville 

[Tacenda]

https://mormonr.org/qnas/Gzjcc/seer_stones?gclid=CjwKCAjwrranBhAEEiwAzbhNtbr3DxiE48BbKXKFFF4L1PVZ9bESR7qcaJ0ZCGCqOJFr6bcNxlZurRoCFv8QAvD_BwE

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2020-05-0290-the-book-of-mormon-is-tangible-evidence-of-the-restoration?lang=eng

Edited August 29, 2023 by Tacenda

[rjohnson7]

Thx Tacenda,  you are a believer in the seer stone in a hat and gave your reason per the site you posted...

 

THE FACTS

• Folk magicians in the nineteenth century used seer stones to see hidden objects or people.

• Joseph used the stones for translation and reportedly to see hidden people and objects.

• The Bible records the use of objects such as burning bushes, lots, aprons, and Urim for revelation.

• Joseph had multiple seer stones, possibly up to five.

• There are reports that other early Saints owned seer stones.

• The Church published pictures of Joseph’s brown seer stone in 2015.

 

Do you believe that a seer stone is not considered magic or occultist?   Do you believe that God prepared a stone found in a well as a means of translation?  

 

 

[Tacenda]

10 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

Thx Tacenda,  you are a believer in the seer stone in a hat and gave your reason per the site you posted...

 

THE FACTS

• Folk magicians in the nineteenth century used seer stones to see hidden objects or people.

• Joseph used the stones for translation and reportedly to see hidden people and objects.

• The Bible records the use of objects such as burning bushes, lots, aprons, and Urim for revelation.

• Joseph had multiple seer stones, possibly up to five.

• There are reports that other early Saints owned seer stones.

• The Church published pictures of Joseph’s brown seer stone in 2015.

 

Do you believe that a seer stone is not considered magic or occultist?   Do you believe that God prepared a stone found in a well as a means of translation?  

 

 

Did you see the edit/add I made of Pres Nelson speaking of Joseph using the seerstone or urim and thummin in a hat?

[webbles]

25 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

No on seer stone in a hat, yes on Urim and Thummin as the primary reason and means for the translation of the BOM.   JS and Oliver Cowdery were both first hand witnesses to the means and both claimed translation by the Urim and Thummim...   "A Man Who Can Translate'   written by Jonathan Neville 

Why not both?  Joseph definitely used the seer stone during his ministry.

It sounds like Joseph first started with the Urim and Thummin and then later moved to using the seer stone while translating the Book of Mormon.  And honestly, why does it matter which method he used?  As @Benjamin McGuire has pointed out, you have to believe an angel showed up in either case.  And if you accept an angel, then the rest is easy.

[rjohnson7]

Why not both?  Joseph definitely used the seer stone during his ministry.

It sounds like Joseph first started with the Urim and Thummin and then later moved to using the seer stone while translating the Book of Mormon.  And honestly, why does it matter which method he used?  As @Benjamin McGuire has pointed out, you have to believe an angel showed up in either case.  And if you accept an angel, then the rest is easy.

 

You're absolutely right, why not both?  Its what is written in the Book of Mormon that is most important, but I ask for reasons that progressives and 'The New Mormonism' is taking folks our of the Church and one of many reasons folks are leaving, many believe the Church covered up the true history of events, such as money digging, JS as lazy and the seer stone in a hat which many progressives assert was magic and occultist... 

 

 

 

[Tacenda]

Did you see the added edit of Pres Nelson showing how Joseph translated the BoM in my first post? Here's mention of it in a talk back in 1992. And most of my life I only saw artwork with the gold plates, never a hat and seerstone. But since the internet maybe they need to be more transparent.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1993/07/a-treasured-testament?lang=eng

Edited August 29, 2023 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

You're new here, I'm still a member, baptized at 8 in 1969. I did lose a strong testimony when I discovered Joseph lived polygamy and that led me down a rabbit hole in my late 40's around 2006 or 2007. But Mormonism is in my being and hard to let go. I love the board that allows questions as long as one follows the guidelines of the board.

[rjohnson7]

Did you see the edit/add I made of Pres Nelson speaking of Joseph using the seerstone or urim and thummin in a hat?

 

He said there are various accounts and then stated very clearly, the Urim and Thummim seer stones (Plural) not seer stone.   This is something I have often pointed out to others who like the seer stone in a hat... question to you, God said he prepared the Urim and Thummim for the means of translation, never mentioned preparing a stone found in a well for the means... 

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

Did you see the edit/add I made of Pres Nelson speaking of Joseph using the seerstone or urim and thummin in a hat?

 

He said there are various accounts and then stated very clearly, the Urim and Thummim seer stones (Plural) not seer stone.   This is something I have often pointed out to others who like the seer stone in a hat... question to you, God said he prepared the Urim and Thummim for the means of translation, never mentioned preparing a stone found in a well for the means... 

Hi rjohnson, welcome to the board.  

When you want to reply to something that someone has posted, click on the "quote" button at the bottom of the post.  Then their post will be quoted in your reply.  This makes it so they get a notification that you've said something to them (so they won't accidentally miss it), and it's easier than having to copy and paste their statement into your new post.  

[Tacenda]

27 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

Did you see the edit/add I made of Pres Nelson speaking of Joseph using the seerstone or urim and thummin in a hat?

 

He said there are various accounts and then stated very clearly, the Urim and Thummim seer stones (Plural) not seer stone.   This is something I have often pointed out to others who like the seer stone in a hat... question to you, God said he prepared the Urim and Thummim for the means of translation, never mentioned preparing a stone found in a well for the means... 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2015/10/joseph-the-seer?lang=eng

And for fun they discussed it on the board. 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Tacenda

[webbles]

57 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

Why not both?  Joseph definitely used the seer stone during his ministry.

It sounds like Joseph first started with the Urim and Thummin and then later moved to using the seer stone while translating the Book of Mormon.  And honestly, why does it matter which method he used?  As @Benjamin McGuire has pointed out, you have to believe an angel showed up in either case.  And if you accept an angel, then the rest is easy.

 

You're absolutely right, why not both?  Its what is written in the Book of Mormon that is most important, but I ask for reasons that progressives and 'The New Mormonism' is taking folks our of the Church and one of many reasons folks are leaving, many believe the Church covered up the true history of events, such as money digging, JS as lazy and the seer stone in a hat which many progressives assert was magic and occultist... 

 

 

 

People have always found reasons to leave the church.  Back 100 years ago, it was around polygamy.  I have ancestors that left the church for the RLDS because of their issues with polygamy (they later came back because of their issues with the RLDS).

I don't see any problem with talking about the seer stone.  I also don't see the point in trying to argue that it wasn't used.

[rjohnson7]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Hi rjohnson, welcome to the board.  

When you want to reply to something that someone has posted, click on the "quote" button at the bottom of the post.  Then their post will be quoted in your reply.  This makes it so they get a notification that you've said something to them (so they won't accidentally miss it), and it's easier than having to copy and paste their statement into your new post.  

Thx you so much!  

[rjohnson7]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2015/10/joseph-the-seer?lang=eng

And for fun they discussed it on the board. 

 

Notably, although given in the context of “interpreters” (plural), this prophecy speaks about giving a future servant “a stone” (singular), “which shall shine forth in darkness unto light.”¹⁴ Early Latter-day Saints believed this prophesied servant was Joseph Smith.¹⁵

 

^{Did you know that JS had a transparent white stone, singular which was not the brown stone which many suggest he used in a hat to translate?}  

[rjohnson7]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

People have always found reasons to leave the church.  Back 100 years ago, it was around polygamy.  I have ancestors that left the church for the RLDS because of their issues with polygamy (they later came back because of their issues with the RLDS).

I don't see any problem with talking about the seer stone.  I also don't see the point in trying to argue that it wasn't used.

The problem as I see it is with folks who manufacture such letters as the CES letter.    Then we have the progressives and 'The New Mormonism"  you ought to read more about  this and ask why are BYU professors pushing this?

We have faith crisis going on as we speak, so you may not be concerned but I am. 

[Tacenda]

28 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

Notably, although given in the context of “interpreters” (plural), this prophecy speaks about giving a future servant “a stone” (singular), “which shall shine forth in darkness unto light.”¹⁴ Early Latter-day Saints believed this prophesied servant was Joseph Smith.¹⁵

 

^{Did you know that JS had a transparent white stone, singular which was not the brown stone which many suggest he used in a hat to translate?}  

What are you saying, I can't read between these lines?

[rjohnson7]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

What are you saying, I can't read between these lines?

I surely was not being accusatory... 

[Tacenda]

Just now, rjohnson7 said:

I surely was not being accusatory... 

Sorry, didn't mean for a question mark at the end. I just mean I don't understand the question about the white stone, are you saying that it might be the one used instead of the brown one?

[webbles]

37 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

The problem as I see it is with folks who manufacture such letters as the CES letter.    Then we have the progressives and 'The New Mormonism"  you ought to read more about  this and ask why are BYU professors pushing this?

We have faith crisis going on as we speak, so you may not be concerned but I am. 

Pushing what?  The CES letter?  I can't imagine a BYU professor pushing the CES letter.

[carbon dioxide]

4 hours ago, rjohnson7 said:

 

Do you believe that a seer stone is not considered magic or occultist?   Do you believe that God prepared a stone found in a well as a means of translation?  

 

 

God can use whatever he wants to accomplish a task. It really does not matter if uninformed people believe a seer stone is "magic" or "occultist".   Ask the average person what they think about the pentagram.  They may say its evil or occultic but that is a 19th century idea.  The pentagram was viewed by many Christians in early times with Christianity and the 5 wounds of Christ.  What matters is not the device used but the end product.  

I watched an interesting discussion with Don Bradley on this subject.  You might find the discussion interesting in how a seer stone in a hat relates to a story that probably existed in the Book of Mormon in the lost 116 pages. 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by carbon dioxide

[pogi]

1 hour ago, rjohnson7 said:

We have faith crisis going on as we speak, so you may not be concerned but I am. 

It seems you are trying to resurrect the 1980's church/narrative to save people from a faith Crisis.   That will only exacerbate the issue my friend.   It is that misleading narrative that caused a faith crisis for many, please let it go the way of all the earth.  You are only embarrassing the church further by trying to prop up a narrative they are trying hard to get beyond.   Please don't interfere with the efforts of the church in this regard.  

Have you ever read the church history series "Saints", published by the church, or the gospel topics essay on the issue?

3 hours ago, rjohnson7 said:

He said there are various accounts and then stated very clearly, the Urim and Thummim seer stones (Plural) not seer stone.   This is something I have often pointed out to others who like the seer stone in a hat... question to you, God said he prepared the Urim and Thummim for the means of translation, never mentioned preparing a stone found in a well for the means... 

It is plural because there were multiple stones - the seer stones in the spectacles, plus the other ones he had in his possession and used in a hat.   The term "Urim and Thummim" was used interchangeably to refer to the spectacles and the other stones he had.  From the gospel topics essay:

Quote

During the translation of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith apparently used both of these instruments—the interpreters and his seer stone—interchangeably. They worked in much the same way, and the early Saints sometimes used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the seer stone as well as the interpreters. The Prophet also received several of the revelations found today in the Doctrine and Covenants by means of these instruments of revelation.3 As Joseph became more experienced in spiritual matters, he eventually started receiving revelation without these aids.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/seer-stones?lang=eng

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by pogi

[Tacenda]

Be careful, it's very easy to fall down the rabbit hole. I had to and I didn't fare well, but so many on this board will help you like they did me. I prefer listening to members of the church in the know that guide me to sources than listen to critics of the church who may not be totally upfront and honest or that may not know the full story. Been there done that! 

Just go with the current prophet and apostles and their apologetic help from scholars, and use what helps you see through it. It's more difficult for the members that have read or heard different narratives. 

Growing up my parents weren't into the scholarly written church books that probably held many of the unknowns that I stumbled across while on the internet so many years ago. 

Now the church does admit that they need to inoculate the youth against what we in the older age group faced. I wish my parents had delved into church history and taught me, but that didn't happen. 

That's what the church is doing now, in the seminary and institute classes. And through the Gospel Topic Essays that someone has already shared with you above. 

Hold your horses tight, you'll get through it, I'm sure. I was one to not hold onto faith in the church as well as some may have. What I did was search for a faith that didn't lean on or rely on what other's had. It's now my time to find my own faith and it has helped me because I'm more spiritual than before. 

It's a road that I continue travel on and may even return to church one day! 

[blackstrap]

I studied Church history over 60 years ago in Seminary. There I learned about polygamy, money digging , seer stones, that so-called lazy prophet clearing acres of forest by hand, etc. If the Church was hiding the history, they did a poor job back then. 

Oh , and the Nephite U&T with the breastplate would have been way too big to fit in a hat. Their overlarge size was apparently one of the reasons Joseph stopped using them. 

Edited August 29, 2023 by blackstrap

[rjohnson7]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

It seems you are trying to resurrect the 1980's church/narrative to save people from a faith Crisis.   That will only exacerbate the issue my friend.   It is that misleading narrative that caused a faith crisis for many, please let it go the way of all the earth.  You are only embarrassing the church further by trying to prop up a narrative they are trying hard to get beyond.   Please don't interfere with the efforts of the church in this regard.  

Have you ever read the church history series "Saints", published by the church, or the gospel topics essay on the issue?

It is plural because there were multiple stones - the seer stones in the spectacles, plus the other ones he had in his possession and used in a hat.   The term "Urim and Thummim" was used interchangeably to refer to the spectacles and the other stones he had.  From the gospel topics essay:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/seer-stones?lang=eng

 

Thx you so much for your opinion, I only brought this up  because I see quite differently then you do... I don't want to debate with someone  who is safe and secure in his/her testimony of the Church....I read the essays long ago and read the Saints. 

[rjohnson7]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Be careful, it's very easy to fall down the rabbit hole. I had to and I didn't fare well, but so many on this board will help you like they did me. I prefer listening to members of the church in the know that guide me to sources than listen to critics of the church who may not be totally upfront and honest or that may not know the full story. Been there done that! 

Just go with the current prophet and apostles and their apologetic help from scholars, and use what helps you see through it. It's more difficult for the members that have read or heard different narratives. 

Growing up my parents weren't into the scholarly written church books that probably held many of the unknowns that I stumbled across while on the internet so many years ago. 

Now the church does admit that they need to inoculate the youth against what we in the older age group faced. I wish my parents had delved into church history and taught me, but that didn't happen. 

That's what the church is doing now, in the seminary and institute classes. And through the Gospel Topic Essays that someone has already shared with you above. 

Hold your horses tight, you'll get through it, I'm sure. I was one to not hold onto faith in the church as well as some may have. What I did was search for a faith that didn't lean on or rely on what other's had. It's now my time to find my own faith and it has helped me because I'm more spiritual than before. 

It's a road that I continue travel on and may even return to church one day! 

Thx you, but I'm not having a faith crisis.   Do you realize why the Bishop and Bishopric are working with the youth so closely, its because we are losing the youth to the internet... I care for the lost sheep.