'A Man Who Can Translate!' Jospeh Smith.

[webbles]

5 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

Do you wish to quote the source of those witnesses, I have also read Saints, I don't agree with all of it... but its a great book to read.  I totally disagree, if you were to do a deep dive in to history of the church as I have done, you won't find much except for JS own admission he worked as hired help to find a gold/silver treasure.  

You brought up saints, I'm sure they gave the source of their claim he was a gold digger... do the work and provide  the witnesses... 

 

Is your argument that since Joseph was just along to help find or dig for gold, that means he isn't a "gold-digger"?  That's a pretty narrow difference that I don't really see the value in arguing.

[CV75]

50 minutes ago, webbles said:

Is your argument that since Joseph was just along to help find or dig for gold, that means he isn't a "gold-digger"?  That's a pretty narrow difference that I don't really see the value in arguing.

I think the question concerns what 'Saints Vol. 1' says about Joseph Smith being a gold-digger, the stone he used for gold-digging, and the seer stone(s) he used for translating the Book of Mormon plates, other than the interpreters provided along with the plates.

04 Be Watchful (churchofjesuschrist.org) esp. pp 31, 33-34

Also these links to other chapters from the Index:

21 

50

61

And also, this explanation from the Church: Treasure Seeking (churchofjesuschrist.org)

History is such a subjective, interpretive field, and we in turn interpret the interpretations. That Moroni would tell him to "“Quit the company of the money diggers,” and that Jospeh convinced Josiah Stowell to stop his search, indicates to me that he was only occasionally in the employ of gold/silver/treasure digger(s). There is no specificity as to which particular seer stone(s) were used (other than the standard-issue interpreters) for translation. I don't think the Church acknowledges he was a gold-digger himself, only that he "subcontracted" with those who directed any particular search.

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by CV75

[rjohnson7]

2 hours ago, webbles said:

Is your argument that since Joseph was just along to help find or dig for gold, that means he isn't a "gold-digger"?  That's a pretty narrow difference that I don't really see the value in arguing.

I have a problem with revisionist history, money or gold digger is a negative.

[rjohnson7]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I think the question concerns what 'Saints Vol. 1' says about Joseph Smith being a gold-digger, the stone he used for gold-digging, and the seer stone(s) he used for translating the Book of Mormon plates, other than the interpreters provided along with the plates.

04 Be Watchful (churchofjesuschrist.org) esp. pp 31, 33-34

Also these links to other chapters from the Index:

21 

50

61

And also, this explanation from the Church: Treasure Seeking (churchofjesuschrist.org)

History is such a subjective, interpretive field, and we in turn interpret the interpretations. That Moroni would tell him to "“Quit the company of the money diggers,” and that Jospeh convinced Josiah Stowell to stop his search, indicates to me that he was only occasionally in the employ of gold/silver/treasure digger(s). There is no specificity as to which particular seer stone(s) were used (other than the standard-issue interpreters) for translation. I don't think the Church acknowledges he was a gold-digger himself, only that he "subcontracted" with those who directed any particular search.

 

I'm interested in what you just posted.... can you quote or source that Moroni made that claim?  
Thx
 

Richard

[rjohnson7]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

You shouldn't discredit a scholar like Vogel just because he may not be active believing LDS or maybe he's resigned not sure. Here's more to the story concerning Joseph's digging, he was experienced and that's why Josiah Stowell hired him: 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2015/09/joseph-smith-in-harmony?lang=eng

By 1825, young Joseph had a reputation in Manchester and Palmyra for his activities as a treasure seer, or someone who used a seer stone to locate gold or other valuable objects buried in the earth.² Thus, it was no surprise that Stowell specifically sought out Joseph’s services.

Source: Eber D. Howe.... Mormonism Unveiled.... anti Mormon book was his source

[webbles]

18 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

I have a problem with revisionist history, money or gold digger is a negative.

So being employed by a gold digger is acceptable but actually being a gold digger is not acceptable?  I'm still not sure there is much a difference between the two.  I don't see any problem with someone being a gold digger.  I, personally, find that a better focus - showing that gold digging isn't a bad thing.

[jkwilliams]

54 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

I have a problem with revisionist history, money or gold digger is a negative.

I’m puzzled as to why this kind of stuff bothers you. Translation through stones God gave Joseph is fine, but translation through a different stone is not. Why is it so important to cling to the old orthodox history? Joseph used both types of stones. That you don’t like it is irrelevant. 

[pogi]

4 hours ago, rjohnson7 said:

Do you wish to quote the source of those witnesses, I have also read Saints, I don't agree with all of it... but its a great book to read.  I totally disagree, if you were to do a deep dive in to history of the church as I have done, you won't find much except for JS own admission he worked as hired help to find a gold/silver treasure.  

You brought up saints, I'm sure they gave the source of their claim he was a gold digger... do the work and provide  the witnesses... 

 

My point was that the church has published their official version of history which includes their beliefs that Joseph was a treasure seeker and used the same stone to find treasure that he used to translate the plates.  That is their version of history.  You can't deny it, regardless of their sources - that is beside the point.  To paraphrase you, you said that only "enemies of Joseph Smith" believe this stuff.  That is patently false, regardless of whether or not you believe the church's published claims of treasure seeking.   There are countless faithful believing members who believe he was a treasure seeker.  You may put forth your weak attempt to argue that they are misinformed if you wish, but to state that they are "enemies of Joseph Smith" is just wrong.  

Edited August 30, 2023 by pogi

[rjohnson7]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

My point was that the church has published their official version of history which includes their beliefs that Joseph was a treasure seeker and used the same stone to find treasure that he used to translate the plates.  That is their version of history.  You can't deny it, regardless of their sources - that is beside the point.  To paraphrase you, you said that only "enemies of Joseph Smith" believe this stuff.  That is patently false, regardless of whether or not you believe the church's published claims of treasure seeking.   There are countless faithful believing members who believe he was a treasure seeker.  You may put forth your weak attempt to argue that they are misinformed if you wish, but to state that they are "enemies of Joseph Smith" is just wrong.  

Other then Hale, who is there that was a friend of JS?

 

I 

Joseph Smith’s critics often tried to disparage him by calling him a money digger or a treasure seeker. Rather than deny the charge, Joseph acknowledged in his official history that Josiah Stowell had hired him in 1825 to assist in a treasure-seeking venture in northern Pennsylvania. Stowell wanted his help because Joseph was reputed by some of his neighbors to be a “seer”—someone who could look into a special stone and find lost or hidden objects.

“Seeing” and “seers” were part of the culture in which Joseph Smith grew up. Some people in the early 19th century believed it was possible for gifted individuals to see lost objects by means of material objects such as stones. Joseph Smith and his family, like many around them, accepted these familiar folk practices.

In the 1820s, a fascination with purported Spanish treasure deposits led prospectors like Josiah Stowell to enlist the aid of seers like Joseph in their search for treasure. Stowell trusted Joseph, sought his assistance in seeking treasure, and even took his advice to finally give up the hunt. Joseph Smith Sr. considered his son’s ability sacred and hoped he would cease using it to look for earthly treasures.

 

William D. Purple was a source the church used and a very unreliable source.

Edited August 30, 2023 by rjohnson7

[rjohnson7]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I’m puzzled as to why this kind of stuff bothers you. Translation through stones God gave Joseph is fine, but translation through a different stone is not. Why is it so important to cling to the old orthodox history? Joseph used both types of stones. That you don’t like it is irrelevant. 

Why do our critics call it a magic seer stone and occultism?   You are of the opinion that God prepared a stone from a well found by chance as a means of translating?  Oh my!

[CV75]

4 hours ago, rjohnson7 said:

I'm interested in what you just posted.... can you quote or source that Moroni made that claim?  
Thx
 

Richard

According to the footnote, “Mormonism—No. II,” Tiffany’s Monthly, July 1859, 169.

In September 1826, Joseph returned to the hill for the plates, but Moroni said he was still not ready for them. “Quit the company of the money diggers,” the angel told him. There were wicked men among them.⁹ Moroni gave him one more year to align his will with God’s. If he did not, the plates would never be entrusted to him.

Again, the Church does not label him a gold-digger/treasure seeker but recounts from the best sources available how he worked for those who could more correctly be called that.

Edited August 30, 2023 by CV75

[jkwilliams]

34 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

Why do our critics call it a magic seer stone and occultism?   You are of the opinion that God prepared a stone from a well found by chance as a means of translating?  Oh my!

Seems like you are the one who thinks it’s occultism. I’m content to leave God out of it. 

[webbles]

35 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

Why do our critics call it a magic seer stone and occultism?   You are of the opinion that God prepared a stone from a well found by chance as a means of translating?  Oh my!

Seeing an angel and using the urim and thumim is also called occultism.

[rjohnson7]

42 minutes ago, webbles said:

Seeing an angel and using the urim and thumim is also called occultism.

I agree that would be the doctrine of an atheist.  Appreciate your feed back..

Edited August 30, 2023 by rjohnson7

[rjohnson7]

44 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Seems like you are the one who thinks it’s occultism. I’m content to leave God out of it. 

Thx for your feedback

[rjohnson7]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

According to the footnote, “Mormonism—No. II,” Tiffany’s Monthly, July 1859, 169.

In September 1826, Joseph returned to the hill for the plates, but Moroni said he was still not ready for them. “Quit the company of the money diggers,” the angel told him. There were wicked men among them.⁹ Moroni gave him one more year to align his will with God’s. If he did not, the plates would never be entrusted to him.

Again, the Church does not label him a gold-digger/treasure seeker but recounts from the best sources available how he worked for those who could more correctly be called that.

Thx, you're right.  The company of money diggers.

[rjohnson7]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Seems like you are the one who thinks it’s occultism. I’m content to leave God out of it. 

Do the research, John Delhin, Vogel, Reel, RFM, and many others are writing books, doing blogs and utube videos claiming JS and others were into the occult and magic and our youth are reacting to it with faith crisis 

Edited August 31, 2023 by rjohnson7

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

Do the research, John Delhin, Vogel, Reel, RFM, and many others are writing books, doing blogs and utube videos claiming JS and others were into the occult and magic and are youth are reacting to it with faith crisis 

I’m just curious why you think one kind of stone is occult and another isn’t. The historical record is clear that Joseph Smith was involved in “glass-looking” and other practices we might consider “folk magic.” That doesn’t seem to bother a lot of church members. It’s just interesting that it bothers you. 

[ttribe]

14 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

Do the research, John Delhin, Vogel, Reel, RFM, and many others are writing books, doing blogs and utube videos claiming JS and others were into the occult and magic and our youth are reacting to it with faith crisis 

Well, Joseph Smith was into those things. It's pretty well established historical fact, and has been for quite a while. It sounds like the real problem you're having is that, unless history is faith affirming, you don't think it should be taught. In other words, you have a problem with the truth. That sounds very Elder Packer of you.

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, rjohnson7 said:

Thx for your feedback

rjohnson do you also deny Joseph Smith practiced polygamy? 

[rjohnson7]

8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

rjohnson do you also deny Joseph Smith practiced polygamy? 

Of course not, I'm searching for truth and not revisionists history called 'The New Mormonism' as per BUSHMAN, VOGEL AND OTHERS

[rjohnson7]

2 hours ago, ttribe said:

Well, Joseph Smith was into those things. It's pretty well established historical fact, and has been for quite a while. It sounds like the real problem you're having is that, unless history is faith affirming, you don't think it should be taught. In other words, you have a problem with the truth. That sounds very Elder Packer of you.

This is not about me as much as you want to slide on the truth, you seem bent on judging me, why?

Im not here to be contentious, I'm here to find folks who can help find the truth, that may not be you though.

[rjohnson7]

3 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I’m just curious why you think one kind of stone is occult and another isn’t. The historical record is clear that Joseph Smith was involved in “glass-looking” and other practices we might consider “folk magic.” That doesn’t seem to bother a lot of church members. It’s just interesting that it bothers you. 

You totally missed my point, you may think the youth are immune to faith crisis, but I deal with it constantly and am concerned that our history is being corrupted by wolves in sheep clothing,,,,, this may be a topic you should skip for reasons it doesn't seem to bother you and your particular church friends.... God bless friend.

Edited August 31, 2023 by rjohnson7

[Tacenda]

18 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

You totally missed my point, you may think the youth are immune to faith crisis, but I deal with it constantly and am concerned that our history is being corrupted by wolves in sheep clothing,,,,, this may be a topic you should skip for reasons it doesn't seem to bother you and your particular church friends.... God bless friend.

I doubt (sorry) it's all church history, not saying you said that, but maybe they aren't happy with the church's stance on gay marriage and a few other things. 

[jkwilliams]

6 hours ago, rjohnson7 said:

You totally missed my point, you may think the youth are immune to faith crisis, but I deal with it constantly and am concerned that our history is being corrupted by wolves in sheep clothing,,,,, this may be a topic you should skip for reasons it doesn't seem to bother you and your particular church friends.... God bless friend.

Sorry, but pretending the seer stones never happened is the real “corrupting” of church history. At some point young church members will learn the history, and all you’ll have done is deceive them, which is worse. I don’t think anyone is “immune” to a faith crisis, but lying to the youth doesn’t help.