'A Man Who Can Translate!' Jospeh Smith.

[rjohnson7]

1 hour ago, blackstrap said:

I studied Church history over 60 years ago in Seminary. There I learned about polygamy, money digging , seer stones, that so-called lazy prophet clearing acres of forest by hand, etc. If the Church was hiding the history, they did a poor job back then. 

Oh , and the Nephite U&T with the breastplate would have been way too big to fit in a hat. Their overlarge size was apparently one of the reasons Joseph stopped using them. 

Yes, his mother even said he quit using it and took out the stones that came with it.... I still say no on stone in a hat, that JS was lazy and a money digger.    

[rjohnson7]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Be careful, it's very easy to fall down the rabbit hole. I had to and I didn't fare well, but so many on this board will help you like they did me. I prefer listening to members of the church in the know that guide me to sources than listen to critics of the church who may not be totally upfront and honest or that may not know the full story. Been there done that! 

Just go with the current prophet and apostles and their apologetic help from scholars, and use what helps you see through it. It's more difficult for the members that have read or heard different narratives. 

Growing up my parents weren't into the scholarly written church books that probably held many of the unknowns that I stumbled across while on the internet so many years ago. 

Now the church does admit that they need to inoculate the youth against what we in the older age group faced. I wish my parents had delved into church history and taught me, but that didn't happen. 

That's what the church is doing now, in the seminary and institute classes. And through the Gospel Topic Essays that someone has already shared with you above. 

Hold your horses tight, you'll get through it, I'm sure. I was one to not hold onto faith in the church as well as some may have. What I did was search for a faith that didn't lean on or rely on what other's had. It's now my time to find my own faith and it has helped me because I'm more spiritual than before. 

It's a road that I continue travel on and may even return to church one day! 

I'm working with a sweet lady that has just came back recently after 25 yrs of inactivity.   I gave her a blessing and we are working to get her to the temple.  

[webbles]

1 minute ago, rjohnson7 said:

Yes, his mother even said he quit using it and took out the stones that came with it.... I still say no on stone in a hat, that JS was lazy and a money digger.    

What's the point in hiding it when people will find out eventually?  Why not teach it and help them understand it?

[rjohnson7]

1 minute ago, webbles said:

What's the point in hiding it when people will find out eventually?  Why not teach it and help them understand it?

Not sure what you're saying... 

[webbles]

10 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

Not sure what you're saying... 

I understood you to say that you will tell people that Joseph Smith didn't use a stone in the hat and that he wasn't a money digger.  Both of those things happened.  He did use a stone in the hat and he participated in money digging.  Why hide that when people will find out?

[rjohnson7]

7 minutes ago, webbles said:

I understood you to say that you will tell people that Joseph Smith didn't use a stone in the hat and that he wasn't a money digger.  Both of those things happened.  He did use a stone in the hat and he participated in money digging.  Why hide that when people will find out?

True, what evidence do you have of him being a money digger other then he was hired to help find lost treasure?   He was hired help, not the means of finding it.  If he was using a seer stone in a hat, what evidence of only first hand accounts can you find? 

[Tacenda]

21 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

Yes, his mother even said he quit using it and took out the stones that came with it.... I still say no on stone in a hat, that JS was lazy and a money digger.    

So president Nelson is wrong about the stone in the hat? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2020-05-0290-the-book-of-mormon-is-tangible-evidence-of-the-restoration?lang=eng 

Joseph did use a rock to find treasure or lost items. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/treasure-seeking?lang=eng

And this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_Sr. "He was raised to the degree of Master Mason on May 7, 1818, in Ontario Lodge No. 23 of Canandaigua, New York.^{[citation needed]} In the Palmyra–Manchester area, Smith and his sons were involved in a number of treasure digging excavations in the 1820s.^[7]"

And to the third one, I doubt Joseph Smith Jr. was lazy, not too many could be in his day and age. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Be careful, it's very easy to fall down the rabbit hole. I had to and I didn't fare well, but so many on this board will help you like they did me. I prefer listening to members of the church in the know that guide me to sources than listen to critics of the church who may not be totally upfront and honest or that may not know the full story. Been there done that! 

Just go with the current prophet and apostles and their apologetic help from scholars, and use what helps you see through it. It's more difficult for the members that have read or heard different narratives. 

Growing up my parents weren't into the scholarly written church books that probably held many of the unknowns that I stumbled across while on the internet so many years ago. 

Now the church does admit that they need to inoculate the youth against what we in the older age group faced. I wish my parents had delved into church history and taught me, but that didn't happen. 

That's what the church is doing now, in the seminary and institute classes. And through the Gospel Topic Essays that someone has already shared with you above. 

Hold your horses tight, you'll get through it, I'm sure. I was one to not hold onto faith in the church as well as some may have. What I did was search for a faith that didn't lean on or rely on what other's had. It's now my time to find my own faith and it has helped me because I'm more spiritual than before. 

It's a road that I continue travel on and may even return to church one day! 

I am glad you see it this way now, Tacenda.  You have been too negative about what you have been trying to do in the past…or so it seemed to me…and that seemed to make you more anxious and make it harder for you to find what you needed.  Accepting your own journey as right for you leaving the possibility that it can lead back to faith in the Restored Gospel is a good path to take.

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am glad you see it this way now, Tacenda.  You have been too negative about what you have been trying to do in the past…or so it seemed to me…and that seemed to make you more anxious and make it harder for you to find what you needed.  Accepting your own journey as right for you leaving the possibility that it can lead back to faith in the Restored Gospel is a good path to take.

Thanks Calm, I take two steps forward and two back all the time. I'm in the mindset that whether the church is true or not, I like how lives can be better while living the gospel. 

[webbles]

22 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

True, what evidence do you have of him being a money digger other then he was hired to help find lost treasure?   He was hired help, not the means of finding it.  If he was using a seer stone in a hat, what evidence of only first hand accounts can you find? 

First, you appear to be acknowledging that he was involved in money digging.  That's great.  I thought you didn't even want to discuss that.  If so, then yes, that is something that should be taught.

As for the seer stone in the hat, my favorite story is the one told by Martin Harris.  He told it to a congregation and it ended up in Deseret News and then in the Millennial Star.  I couldn't find the copy in either the Millennial Star or Deseret News online, but here's the same version that was put in "The Three Witness" by Andrew Jenson in May 1887.

Quote

On Sunday, Sept. 4, 1870, Martin Harris addressed a congregation of Saints in Salt Lake City. He related an incident which occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith, and said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone. Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin, and when finished he would say, “Written,” and if correctly written, that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place; but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used. Martin said that after continued translation they would become weary, and would go down to the river and exercise by throwing stones out on the river, etc. While so doing, on one occasion, Martin Harris found a stone very much resembling the one used for translating, and on resuming their labor of translation, he put in place the stone that he had found. He said that the Prophet remained silent, unusually and intently gazing in darkness, no traces of the usual sentences appearing. Much surprised, Joseph excla[i]med, “Martin! What is the matter! All is as dark as Egypt!” Martin’s countenance betrayed him, and the Prophet asked Martin why he had done so. Martin said, to stop the mouths of fools, who had told him that the Prophet had learned those sentences and was merely repeating them, etc. Martin said further that the seer stones differed in appearance entirely from the Urim and Thummim obtained with the plates, which were two clear stones set in two rims, very much resembling spectacles, only they were larger. Martin said, there were not many pages translated while he wrote, after which Oliver Cowdery and others did the writing.

You'll notice that Martin Harris differentiates between the seer stone and the Urim and Thummim.  And he swapped the seer stone with a copy and not the Urim and Thummim.

[carbon dioxide]

2 hours ago, rjohnson7 said:

Thx you, but I'm not having a faith crisis.   Do you realize why the Bishop and Bishopric are working with the youth so closely, its because we are losing the youth to the internet... I care for the lost sheep. 

Lots of reasons why youth fall away.   The church could do a better job at teaching the youth but the youth could do a better job at learning and studying stuff and not making rash decisions if they can't get an answer to a question in 5 minutes.

[carbon dioxide]

8 hours ago, rjohnson7 said:

 such as money digging, JS as lazy and the seer stone in a hat which many progressives assert was magic and occultist...

Nothing wrong with money digging.  I am not aware of any scripture that says one can't do this.    JS was not lazy.  Especially in comparison to modern day people who do most of their work on their phones.   Joseph Smith burned more calories in an hour than many young people do in a week texting their friends.   Nothing wrong with seer stones in a hat.   If young people have a problem with seer stones in a hat, how can many of them explain their support for same sex marriage which probably is a billion times worse in the eyes of God?

[pogi]

1 hour ago, rjohnson7 said:

I read the essays long ago and read the Saints. 

But you disagree?

[Calm]

10 hours ago, rjohnson7 said:

No on seer stone in a hat, yes on Urim and Thummin as the primary reason and means for the translation of the BOM.   JS and Oliver Cowdery were both first hand witnesses to the means and both claimed translation by the Urim and Thummim...   "A Man Who Can Translate'   written by Jonathan Neville 

Are you aware of this review of Neville’s book?

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/an-unfortunate-approach-to-joseph-smiths-translation-of-ancient-scripture/

[Calm]

4 hours ago, rjohnson7 said:

Yes, his mother even said he quit using it and took out the stones that came with it.... I still say no on stone in a hat, that JS was lazy and a money digger.    

A quote please…

If this is from Neville’s book, from the review:

Quote

A final area worth mentioning derives from Neville’s misrepresentation of other sources. Lucy Mack Smith, who was a second-hand witness to the translation, is listed by Neville as a first-hand witness.194 Neville also fails to take into account Lucy’s late retellings of certain events, treating them as though her retelling was contemporaneous.195

You might want to be cautious.

[Calm]

A podcast on the seer stone…

https://standardoftruth.com/s-3-e-20-did-joseph-smith-really-use-a-seer-stone/

It’s a long podcast that talks directly about the issues of insisting that a seer stone was not used when not only is there extensive documentation on it (which they give) and the Church’s position is that a seer stone was used. 
 

The last ten minutes are particularly relevant, imo.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Calm

[Tacenda]

Well Pres Nelson said something about being a lazy learner. I guess many many of the older members are lazy learners because we didn't research this stuff. 😒

In the podcast that Calm posted above I did listen to the last few minutes and it struck me hard that we weren't given the full picture and now the church is going to do that for the upcoming generation going forward. 

But I will do my best not to be angry (in the podcast). 

 

[CV75]

'A Man Who Can Transplant' - President Nelson

[CA Steve]

13 hours ago, rjohnson7 said:

Thx you, but I'm not having a faith crisis.   Do you realize why the Bishop and Bishopric are working with the youth so closely, its because we are losing the youth to the internet... I care for the lost sheep. 

A couple of thoughts here.

First, I think it is important you allow some latitude in belief about Jospeh's involvement in money digging, both for yourself and anyone you might be trying to convince. In my opinion, and I have been looking at Mormon history for a long time, the evidence he was involved in it is overwhelming. You should make sure this isn't a make-or-break deal for a testimony, yours or anyone else's. No matter how weird it is for us today, it was not all that unusual back then.

Secondly, I do not think the loss of our youth to the internet is a result of information they are finding there, information that may or may not be taught in church. We are losing youth to social media. The pulpit cannot compete with the phone. People today, not just youth, would much rather see and hear a bunch of 30 second Tik Tok videos than listen to a 20-minute talk at Sacrament. On top of that, the church no longer is the focal point of social life, it is the phone and until the church can figure out a way to incorporate itself into social medial better, it will keep losing the interest of those who have to watch what is being shown on a small screen instead of real life around them. The youth are not leaving because they read about Joseph sticking his face into a hat, they are leaving because they are sticking their faces into a phone.

[rjohnson7]

14 hours ago, Tacenda said:

So president Nelson is wrong about the stone in the hat? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2020-05-0290-the-book-of-mormon-is-tangible-evidence-of-the-restoration?lang=eng 

Joseph did use a rock to find treasure or lost items. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/treasure-seeking?lang=eng

And this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_Sr. "He was raised to the degree of Master Mason on May 7, 1818, in Ontario Lodge No. 23 of Canandaigua, New York.^{[citation needed]} In the Palmyra–Manchester area, Smith and his sons were involved in a number of treasure digging excavations in the 1820s.^[7]"

And to the third one, I doubt Joseph Smith Jr. was lazy, not too many could be in his day and age. 

Did you listen closely, he mentioned there are various accounts, and one account states Urim and Thummim seer stones in a hat.    Why did he mention stones and in  two or more.   Why did he mention various accounts.  

 

Gold digging  from you same source:  Joseph Smith’s critics often tried to disparage him by calling him a money digger or a treasure seeker. Rather than deny the charge, Joseph acknowledged in his official history that Josiah Stowell had hired him in 1825 to assist in a treasure-seeking venture in northern Pennsylvania.¹ Stowell wanted his help because Joseph was reputed by some of his neighbors to be a “seer”—someone who could look into a special stone and find lost or hidden objects.

The above was authored by Dan Vogel, a anti mormon.... Dan Vogel, "The Location of Joseph Smith's Early Treasure Quests", Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 27(3) (1994): 197–231.

 

 

[rjohnson7]

49 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

A couple of thoughts here.

First, I think it is important you allow some latitude in belief about Jospeh's involvement in money digging, both for yourself and anyone you might be trying to convince. In my opinion, and I have been looking at Mormon history for a long time, the evidence he was involved in it is overwhelming. You should make sure this isn't a make-or-break deal for a testimony, yours or anyone else's. No matter how weird it is for us today, it was not all that unusual back then.

Secondly, I do not think the loss of our youth to the internet is a result of information they are finding there, information that may or may not be taught in church. We are losing youth to social media. The pulpit cannot compete with the phone. People today, not just youth, would much rather see and hear a bunch of 30 second Tik Tok videos than listen to a 20-minute talk at Sacrament. On top of that, the church no longer is the focal point of social life, it is the phone and until the church can figure out a way to incorporate itself into social medial better, it will keep losing the interest of those who have to watch what is being shown on a small screen instead of real life around them. The youth are not leaving because they read about Joseph sticking his face into a hat, they are leaving because they are sticking their faces into a phone.

No, there is very little about his gold digging except for those who were enemies of Joesph Smith.  Dan Vogel did a hit piece and has acknowledged he uses citations from "Mormonism Unveiled"   

have you even read the CES letter?  don't fool yourself, the youth have.  

 

[rjohnson7]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

'A Man Who Can Transplant' - President Nelson

Chuckle, humor a God given trait... thx. 

[pogi]

32 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

No, there is very little about his gold digging except for those who were enemies of Joesph Smith. 

That is not true, unless you consider the Church itself to be an enemy of Joseph Smith.  In the church history series, Saints, it is acknowledged that he was a gold-digger and that used the same stone to find treasure that he used to translate the plates.  

Any time I bring up the official published church history on these issues, you don't seem to have a response.  Care to respond? 

[Tacenda]

47 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said:

Did you listen closely, he mentioned there are various accounts, and one account states Urim and Thummim seer stones in a hat.    Why did he mention stones and in  two or more.   Why did he mention various accounts.  

 

Gold digging  from you same source:  Joseph Smith’s critics often tried to disparage him by calling him a money digger or a treasure seeker. Rather than deny the charge, Joseph acknowledged in his official history that Josiah Stowell had hired him in 1825 to assist in a treasure-seeking venture in northern Pennsylvania.¹ Stowell wanted his help because Joseph was reputed by some of his neighbors to be a “seer”—someone who could look into a special stone and find lost or hidden objects.

The above was authored by Dan Vogel, a anti mormon.... Dan Vogel, "The Location of Joseph Smith's Early Treasure Quests", Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 27(3) (1994): 197–231.

 

 

You shouldn't discredit a scholar like Vogel just because he may not be active believing LDS or maybe he's resigned not sure. Here's more to the story concerning Joseph's digging, he was experienced and that's why Josiah Stowell hired him: 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2015/09/joseph-smith-in-harmony?lang=eng

By 1825, young Joseph had a reputation in Manchester and Palmyra for his activities as a treasure seer, or someone who used a seer stone to locate gold or other valuable objects buried in the earth.² Thus, it was no surprise that Stowell specifically sought out Joseph’s services.

[rjohnson7]

56 minutes ago, pogi said:

That is not true, unless you consider the Church itself to be an enemy of Joseph Smith.  In the church history series, Saints, it is acknowledged that he was a gold-digger and that used the same stone to find treasure that he used to translate the plates.  

Any time I bring up the official published church history on these issues, you don't seem to have a response.  Care to respond? 

Do you wish to quote the source of those witnesses, I have also read Saints, I don't agree with all of it... but its a great book to read.  I totally disagree, if you were to do a deep dive in to history of the church as I have done, you won't find much except for JS own admission he worked as hired help to find a gold/silver treasure.  

You brought up saints, I'm sure they gave the source of their claim he was a gold digger... do the work and provide  the witnesses...