To understand Jesus words and behavior we need to understand Jesus himself first

[Bassil]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

How did you come to believe the scriptures about Jesus were true then? (The ones you accept as true).  What proves them true for you?

The Holy Spirit has been with me since 2005. I believed in Jesus because of the Holy Spirit, not the Scriptures. So, I just know. And because of that, I don't preach my beliefs because it's based on personal experience. Still, I can talk and express them. If someone is interested to know more I'll continue.

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Bassil said:

The Holy Spirit has been with me since 2005. I believed in Jesus because of the Holy Spirit, not the Scriptures. So, I just know. And because of that, I don't preach my beliefs because it's based on personal experience. Still, I can talk and express them. If someone is interested to know more I'll continue.

Been trying to get to the point you are, I'm all ears or eyes! I've never fully had that spirit of Jesus but even reading your posts, Jesus seeped or soared in. 

[Navidad]

11 hours ago, teddyaware said:

You say this in spite of the fact that Christ clearly testified otherwise. Please note that in the following excerpt from Mark Christ instructs his apostles that believing isn’t enough, for belief must be followed by baptism. If baptism isn’t a requirement for salvation, why did the Lord bother to teach that it is?

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damed. (Mark 16) 

You and I have two very different interpretations of that verse. That is fine. For years now, I have tried not to argue or debate doctrine here on this forum. I will simply say it is my thinking that there are multiple baptisms referred to in the New Testament. Also, belief and baptism are sometimes linked together therein, and more often not. We have a difference. I receive and accept your viewpoint as a valid perspective on the question.

You probably won't receive mine because yours also includes an entirely different insistence as well. You add that even I, or someone else who was baptized does not have assurance of salvation (exaltation) because our baptism, while performed in the correct manner was not performed by one holding the unique and only valid LDS priesthood. Therefore mine is not valid anyway and, without LDS ordinances now or in the future, I am lost regardless (is that a word?). One of your prophets who lived in my lifetime wrote (prior to his assuming the presidency) that those who practice baptism outside of the LDS church commit blasphemy. Now, how can I debate or argue against that? That is dogma, not doctrine.

So even if we agree on a singular (yours) interpretation of Mark 16:16, you will then move on to the lack of validity of my baptism anyway. For the member of the LDS church, baptism is a distinctively dividing or distancing mechanism, not a unifying mechanism. It is a debate meant to validate the uniqueness of the LDS church. It is an identity validating device. I find it rather useless to debate dividing, distancing, or identity mechanisms. because, well they are meant to divide, distance, and validate identity. That is not what I am about. Best wishes, Navidad

[Bassil]

33 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Been trying to get to the point you are, I'm all ears or eyes! I've never fully had that spirit of Jesus but even reading your posts, Jesus seeped or soared in. 

OK.

1. God didn't come down to us. It was born among us. He could've embodied himself as a human and come down, yet he chose to be born among us. Do you know why? Because God chose to be one of us. And that is the Gospel.

2. There're no angels. It's just God and us.

What do you think about that?

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, Bassil said:

OK.

1. God didn't come down to us. It was born among us. He could've embodied himself as a human and come down, yet he chose to be born among us. Do you know why? Because God chose to be one of us. And that is the Gospel.

2. There're no angels. It's just God and us.

What do you think about that?

1. Is kind of true, although Mormon beliefs adjust it quite a bit.

2. Is completely false.  I don't see how you can claim any belief in Christ and at the same time reject most everything written about him or that he said.

You don't want Christ if you are making things up about him.  You want a God of your own design.

[Navidad]

16 hours ago, CV75 said:

Yes, everyone will be resurrected no matter what and, as we believe, receive an abode in a kingdom of glory. But the old and new testaments are that joy is in the covenant relationship with God, bound together and sealed simultaneously in heaven and on earth, and requiring voluntary, good-faith submission to specific physical ordinances in the flesh, using our bodies as well as our faith. These testaments add that those who did not keep them, or rejected them in the flesh, or made up their own terms in any dispensation were denied this joy.

Wow! That is quite a keyboard-full in just a few lines. And you use the Bible as a validating device. Of course joy is found in a covenant relationship, either with God or with my wife. Bound and sealed together - both. How could I question or debate that when I believe it with all my heart. Using our bodies as well as our faith? Of course. That is what ministry is all about. I serve with my body and believe with my heart and mind (which probably overlap). It is your last sentence that I do not understand. I probably don't understand it because you are correlating ritual ordinances with joy, I assume not a temporal joy, but an eternal joy. I try and receive other's faith statements where I can. It is limiting however, if I don't understand exactly what they are saying. My Christian service is an ordinance, a result of my covenant. Whether leading a sacrament service (in my own tradition) or vacuuming a carpet, or bringing stranded missionaries home, those are all a result of the covenants I have made and they are a work - an ordinance - a joy.

There are lots of Hebrew and Greek words (especially the latter) that are translated as ordinance, especially in the NT. Each has a different meaning and usage in the original language that may be lost in simple repetition of the same English word. Ritual is only one of them.

A couple of weeks ago a nice lady from the ward stopped me in the new grocery store (Al Super) next to the new KFC, about a half mile from the new Wendy's (my are we getting modern!) in the closest city to where we live and said she just wanted to tell me she misses hearing me sing at the ward. What was the context? In the formal sacrament meeting? In the annual Christmas concert? No! She said she missed me singing on Saturday morning when it was our turn to clean - while I vacuumed the Sunday School rooms or the hallways. That made me both smile and tear up. You see, whether singing in the Sacrament or while vacuuming, it is a product of my covenant with God and joy in the same. Both are a form of a New Testament and actually an Old Testament ministry/worship of what each refers to as an ordinance (depending on the Hebrew or Greek word used).

I am keyboarding this on a Saturday morning. A year ago I might have been in the cultural hall mopping right now. That was my service, my ministry, my ordinance. Perhaps a bit less formal, but nevertheless my joy with my body as well as my faith. It was a result of my covenant with God, and with a people with whom I fellowshipped, worshiped, and ministered for five years. I know, because I have both mopped and broke the bread for sacrament (communion in my own tradition). The second half of that covenant was taken from me by a new bishop, with a new interpretation, not of scripture but of something I guess equally as sacred in the LDS polity called the "handbook." Ok, enough of that. . . I don't want to keep going on about that here, or someone will decide I can't be a member here either. I am trying to let it go, but I admit it is hard. Best wishes, Navidad

Edited August 19, 2023 by Navidad

[teddyaware]

11 minutes ago, Bassil said:

OK.

1. God didn't come down to us. It was born among us. He could've embodied himself as a human and come down, yet he chose to be born among us. Do you know why? Because God chose to be one of us. And that is the Gospel.

2. There're no angels. It's just God and us.

What do you think about that?

There are no angels? Yet the the Bible is quite literally filled with hosts of angels from the first book of the Old Testament to the last book of the New Testament. The only way your second statement can make any sense, in light of the Bible, is if you believe the multitude of angels found throughout the Bible are actually men and women who have been misnamed and/or mischaracterized as angelic beings by the translators of the Bible. If otherwise, statement 2 is utterly preposterous.

[Navidad]

29 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

1. Is kind of true, although Mormon beliefs adjust it quite a bit.

2. Is completely false.  I don't see how you can claim any belief in Christ and at the same time reject most everything written about him or that he said.

You don't want Christ if you are making things up about him.  You want a God of your own design.

That seems a little harsh when dealing with someone very new to the faith.

[Navidad]

13 hours ago, Bassil said:

No. I don't believe in the driven by the Holy Spirit concept. Do you think Psalm 109 was inspired by the Holy Spirit?

"

Let his children be fatherless And his
wife a widow.
Let his children wander about and beg;
And let them seek sustenance far from
their ruined homes.

" (Psalm, 109:9,10)

I find Psalm 109 in its total context and message fascinating. I especially  enjoy pondering the verses about the sins of the fathers and the mother of the one being judged in the Psalm. I am interested in the study of epigenetics. I find the idea of the soul wound down through the generations to be very interesting and enlightening, especially when dealing with pain, trouble with self-worth, hubris, etc. Do I think Psalm 109 was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Yes. For our teaching and learning and to better understand human wrath and pain when we are confronted with it.

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, Bassil said:

The Holy Spirit has been with me since 2005. I believed in Jesus because of the Holy Spirit, not the Scriptures. So, I just know. And because of that, I don't preach my beliefs because it's based on personal experience. Still, I can talk and express them. If someone is interested to know more I'll continue.

Yep.

We gotta talk.

Ideas confirmed by experience is all there is, all that is "real".

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

You probably won't receive mine because yours also includes an entirely different insistence as well. You add that even I, or someone else who was baptized does not have assurance of salvation (exaltation) because our baptism, while performed in the correct manner was not performed by one holding the unique and only valid LDS priesthood. Therefore mine is not valid anyway and, without LDS ordinances now or in the future, I am lost regardless (is that a word?). One of your prophets who lived in my lifetime wrote (prior to his assuming the presidency) that those who practice baptism outside of the LDS church commit blasphemy. Now, how can I debate or argue against that? That is dogma, not doctrine.

You still have NO understanding of actual LDS beliefs after all these years.

1 Prophets are fallible human beings 

2 Salvation and exaltation are two VERY different things, an IF ordinances really are required for the latter you have eternity to decide that AFTER DEATH when one might be a little, uh, "better informed".

3 You, like everyone but perhaps a few true "Lucifarians" are not even capable of being "lost forever" until you have received the "beatific vision" and deliberately and fully knowingly denied what you KNOW is true.

You are still not getting it.

God knows all about being human, because He is, and would never create the universe you are imagining when his "work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality (salvation) and eternal life (exaltation) of man".

He would be putting himself out of business, looking for ways NOT to achieve his goals, if we are to believe the stuff you state here.

Those are not our beliefs, mi amigo and brother!

Edited August 19, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Bassil said:

OK.

1. God didn't come down to us. It was born among us. He could've embodied himself as a human and come down, yet he chose to be born among us. Do you know why? Because God chose to be one of us. And that is the Gospel.

2. There're no angels. It's just God and us.

What do you think about that?

When I think of angels I think of my my mom, may she rest in peace.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Wow! That is quite a keyboard-full in just a few lines. And you use the Bible as a validating device. Of course joy is found in a covenant relationship, either with God or with my wife. Bound and sealed together - both. How could I question or debate that when I believe it with all my heart. Using our bodies as well as our faith? Of course. That is what ministry is all about. I serve with my body and believe with my heart and mind (which probably overlap). It is your last sentence that I do not understand. I probably don't understand it because you are correlating ritual ordinances with joy, I assume not a temporal joy, but an eternal joy. I try and receive other's faith statements where I can. It is limiting however, if I don't understand exactly what they are saying. My Christian service is an ordinance, a result of my covenant. Whether leading a sacrament service (in my own tradition) or vacuuming a carpet, or bringing stranded missionaries home, those are all a result of the covenants I have made and they are a work - an ordinance - a joy.

There are lots of Hebrew and Greek words (especially the latter) that are translated as ordinance, especially in the NT. Each has a different meaning and usage in the original language that may be lost in simple repetition of the same English word. Ritual is only one of them.

A couple of weeks ago a nice lady from the ward stopped me in the new grocery store (Al Super) next to the new KFC, about a half mile from the new Wendy's (my are we getting modern!) in the closest city to where we live and said she just wanted to tell me she misses hearing me sing at the ward. What was the context? In the formal sacrament meeting? In the annual Christmas concert? No! She said she missed me singing on Saturday morning when it was our turn to clean - while I vacuumed the Sunday School rooms or the hallways. That made me both smile and tear up. You see, whether singing in the Sacrament or while vacuuming, it is a product of my covenant with God and joy in the same. Both are a form of a New Testament and actually an Old Testament ministry/worship of what each refers to as an ordinance (depending on the Hebrew or Greek word used).

I am keyboarding this on a Saturday morning. A year ago I might have been in the cultural hall mopping right now. That was my service, my ministry, my ordinance. Perhaps a bit less formal, but nevertheless my joy with my body as well as my faith. It was a result of my covenant with God, and with a people with whom I fellowshipped, worshiped, and ministered for five years. I know, because I have both mopped and broke the bread for sacrament (communion). The second half of that covenant was taken from me by a new bishop, with a new interpretation, not of scripture but of something I guess equally as sacred in the LDS polity called the "handbook." Ok, enough of that. . . I don't want to keep going on about that here, or someone will decide I can't be a member here either. I am trying to let it go, but I admit it is hard. Best wishes, Navidad

We understand Christ Himself to be the covenant (and the power behind both the old and the new covenants), the binding Person between us and the Father. The Father relates (even sings!) to us, and we to the Father, through Christ. We can attempt to sidestep, and this may be satisfactory for a while, but not as joyous in the long run.

The singing (and any other activity that might be deemed ministering) and its attendant joy are enhanced by His baptism in water (which must be accompanied by fire) because it is part of the intermediating* media by which we become new creatures, spiritually reborn while yet in the flesh, through Him, thus answering to becoming physically immortal in the resurrection, also through Him.

*When I say “intermediating,” I include the conveyance of life between heaven and earth, each with its own media (power and substance) suitable for the beings in this relationship. God gives us life and we give our lives to God through the power, grace and full stature of the living Christ. Baptism, ordained** by Christ, is our first intentional mutually-agreed-upon link between the spiritual and the physical realms through the power of Christ the Covenant, which ultimately integrates both physical resurrection and spiritual rebirth, the two properties of the saved soul.

** Perhaps a better way to say this is, “Baptism, created by Christ…” The element of water and the attendant activity of immersion are creations of His just as any other creation in this world that brings us joy, and more salvifically, unto Him. Some of His creations bring us sustenance, others trouble, but all of them bring us to Christ as we wait for deliverance, hope for relief, develop patience and charity, etc. (Romans 8).

We can serve God with or without Christ in a mutual covenant relationship, but the former isn’t salvific, or as salvific. But as indicated in Romans 8, good intentions can certainly bring us to better intent and are certainly a source of joy in the meantime, and God isn't going to separate anyone from His love over it.

[manol]

On 8/18/2023 at 7:18 AM, Bassil said:

The verses in John 5:31-47 are tough to be understood without understanding Jesus himself. Jesus gives the keys to understanding his words. The key here is verse 39.

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life... " (John, 5:39)

The key phrase here is, 'Because you think.' He didn't say, 'Because in them you eternal life.' He said, 'Because you think that in them you have eternal life.' Jesus says, 'The scriptures don't give us eternal life, but he does.'

Imo the enlightened principles taught in the scriptures can be, and often are, part of the path to the Kingdom of God, but ultimately the Kingdom of God is experienced directly, and Christ is the Way. 

Before we are at a spiritual state where we can begin to experience the Kingdom of God directly, we need teachings that will lead us in the right direction, so that we can become "tuned in to" to the Kingdom of God.  In my opinion God has scattered such teachings and teachers in many places, including the scriptures.  So imo the scriptures can be part of the path, but they are not the destination.

On 8/18/2023 at 8:36 AM, Bassil said:

By understanding Jesus himself first we understand his words. 

I agree with this idea.

23 hours ago, Bassil said:

I see Jesus as the only way. No one can give life but Jesus.

And I agree with this idea.

8 hours ago, Bassil said:

The Holy Spirit has been with me since 2005. I believed in Jesus because of the Holy Spirit, not the Scriptures. So, I just know.

I agree with the process you have described here.  In my opinion, belief because of the Holy Spirit, rather than belief based on a reading of the Scriptures, is at the heart of Mormonism.  When I was a missionary, we taught people to BE SENSITIVE TO what the Holy Spirit would communicate to them about the truthfulness of our message. 

2 hours ago, Bassil said:

1. God didn't come down to us. It was born among us. He could've embodied himself as a human and come down, yet he chose to be born among us. Do you know why? Because God chose to be one of us. And that is the Gospel.

If I understand correctly, you are saying that God chose to have the experience of being human.  This is not something that is widely taught in so many words in the LDS Church, but imo it is consistent with one of the teachings in the Book of Mormon, from Alma Chapter 7 (these verses say "the Son of God", but I think the meaning is close enough to what you are saying, given that Jesus said he and his Father are one):

"... the Son of God cometh upon the face of the earth... And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people. 

"And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.

"Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance"

2 hours ago, Bassil said:

2. There're no angels. It's just God and us.  

The LDS Church teaches that the beings we call "angels" are actually the SAME SPECIES as us.  In other words, they are advanced humans.  From Doctrine & Covenants Section 130, verses 5-7: 

"There are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it.  The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth; but they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord."

Bassil, you said in another thread that you feel alone, and I can certainly understand that based on your situation.  One of my favorite scriptures is Matthew 18:20: 

"where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

In my opinion the smallest number of people who can be gathered in the name of Christ, and Christ be literally "in the midst of them", is ONE.  In my opinion you are not as alone as the outward appearance might indicate. 

[Bassil]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

There are no angels? Yet the the Bible is quite literally filled with hosts of angels from the first book of the Old Testament to the last book of the New Testament.

I'm only interested in the words of Jesus. I believe that Jesus spoke the language that the Jews understand. He used their faith to communicate with them.

[Bassil]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Do I think Psalm 109 was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Yes. For our teaching and learning and to better understand human wrath and pain when we are confronted with it.

I'm not convinced. But everyone is free to choose what to believe.

[Bassil]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

We gotta talk.

Any time. 🙂

[Bassil]

25 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

When I think of angels I think of my my mom, may she rest in peace.

May she rest in peace

3. There may be something beyond God and his creation. And God may wonder about it.

As God loved us the way we are, we should love him the way he is too, not the way we expect him to be.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

2. Is completely false.  I don't see how you can claim any belief in Christ and at the same time reject most everything written about him or that he said.

We believe that angels are humans acting as messengers of God, so if what he is saying is there isn’t another type of divine being created by God, I think we could actually agree with that.  If he means God never sends messengers, just acts through the Holy Spirit, that would be a contradiction of our beliefs.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Yep.

We gotta talk.

Ideas confirmed by experience is all there is, all that is "real".

I was thinking you might be interested.  Be sure and read his thread in Social for more background.   

[Bassil]

32 minutes ago, manol said:

The LDS Church teaches that the beings we call "angels" are actually the SAME SPECIES as us.  In other words, they are advanced humans.

Interesting!

[Bassil]

35 minutes ago, manol said:

In my opinion the smallest number of people who can be gathered in the name of Christ, and Christ be literally "in the midst of them", is ONE.  In my opinion you are not as alone as the outward appearance might indicate.

Thank you for understanding my situation.

[mfbukowski]

54 minutes ago, manol said:

Before we are at a spiritual state where we can begin to experience the Kingdom of God directly, we need teachings that will lead us in the right direction, so that we can become "tuned in to" to the Kingdom of God. 

You have to know it is possible to receive revelation before you can call some experiences "revelations from God".

I pondered Moroni 10 before I even believed revelation was possible, then tried it.

That was 44 years ago.

I felt it before that but didn't know what it was!

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, Bassil said:

Interesting!

We believe “angel” is a title or spiritual calling rather than a type of divine being that is neither God nor human.  “Angel” is a word meaning “messenger of God”.  When we read or hear of angels, they could be three things.

1) mortal humans acting on behalf of God 

2) humans who have died and who have been sent by God to teach us

3) humans who have not yet been born, but who again have been sent because they have been given a certain task by God.

Which gets into how we believe we have lived for eternities.  God gave us spirit bodies (spirits are not immaterial, but a different type of matter, a more “refined” matter, than physical matter) and then sent us to earth to live a mortal life so we could get a physical body too (since we couldn’t do everything we need to do with just a spirit body) and to learn more so that we can progress in our ability to be one with him.  At every stage of our existence, God may use humankind to accomplish his work. 

There is a massive amount of information packed into those sentences though, including what we believe about the nature of God.

If you are interested, we can get into that, but in the other thread you said you wanted to “first to attend the Church activities….later I'll start learning the teachings”, so I don’t know if you want to get into that detail now.

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Calm

[manol]

25 minutes ago, Bassil said:

Thank you for understanding my situation.

Akhi asalam.