To understand Jesus words and behavior we need to understand Jesus himself first

[pogi]

39 minutes ago, Bassil said:

When we read the Gospels we can focus on understanding Jesus.

Except the parts that say he was baptized, or any other part that doesn't jive with your theory. 

How do you have a special understanding of Jesus that we all lack when we are all reading from the same words?   Do you have some extra-biblical codex that reveals the one true interpretation of the Gospels?    

[teddyaware]

32 minutes ago, Bassil said:

You can believe that.

You don’t know what you’re talking about. If Jesus didn’t believe baptism was necessary, why would he have sought out John the Baptist to be baptized of him? And why in the last chapter of Mark does Christ command his apostles to baptize their believing converts?

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16)

And if baptism is unnecessary, why was Paul baptized by Ananias after Paul encountered the resurrected Christ on the road to Damascus?

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hand on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. (Acts)

You may as well stop wasting your time.

 

 

[Bassil]

14 minutes ago, pogi said:

Except the parts that say he was baptized,

None of the apostles saw Jesus get baptized. The story is based on hearsay, not witnessed.

[teddyaware]

Just now, teddyaware said:

You don’t know what you’re talking about. If Jesus didn’t believe baptism was necessary, why would he have sought out John the Baptist to be baptized of him? And why in the last chapter of Mark does Christ command his apostles to baptize their believing converts?

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16)

And if baptism is unnecessary, why was Paul baptized by Ananias after Paul encountered the resurrected Christ on the road to Damascus?

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hand on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. (Acts 9)

You may as well stop wasting your time.

 

 

 

[Bassil]

20 minutes ago, juliann said:

If you continue with unsupported opinons after you have been asked for references, this thread will be reported. 

I'm not planning to post more.

[Bassil]

8 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved

Baptized with what?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The amount of errors are to many to address. Maybe do one topic at a time. 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Bassil said:

No, I don't reject the Mormons. I just explain mine.

I poorly expressed myself.  You were talking about becoming a member of our Church or so I understood you to be considering it.  For us, that means being baptized by someone who has the proper priesthood authority.  And we believe this because of scripture that was revealed to ancient and modern prophets and we believe it is often Christ himself who is teaching these prophets and if not him, someone he has appointed as his messenger.

Therefore you would have to change your own beliefs in order to be approved for baptism.  This approval is necessary because baptism is for us making a covenant with God and we wouldn’t want anyone to make a sacred covenant they didn’t intend to keep to the best of their ability.  Part of the covenant is sustaining priesthood leaders.

However, you would still be welcomed to meet with a congregation when they gather and participate in any social or service activities they might have.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Bassil said:

Those verses proved not to be in old scriptures. They were added later.

Would you please provide the references you studied that showed this.  Many of us here have an academic approach and we like to see the original sources that people use.  Several posters have universities studies in ancient scripture (academic study, not devotional), so they may be familiar with the material and can discuss it if you are interested.

If you were just posting to explain your POV, that is okay, but usually people post to discuss or debate in this part of the board and keep to the Social Hall part where you first posted when just providing information about yourself, so that is why you are getting a lot of questions, etc.

Added:  thinking about it, since you described yourself as an atheist prior to becoming Christian, it makes more sense that you are limiting what you view as trustworthy to just Jesus and to what you believe was directly witnessed by others.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Bassil said:

You can believe that.

Not a belief, demonstrable recorded fact.

[Bassil]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

Therefore you would have to change your own beliefs in order to be approved for baptism.

I'm an alone person, and I'm done with anything that has to do with Islam. I like Churches. I like the Protestant ones. Catholic and Orthodox Churches creep me out. I tried Jehovah's Witnesses, but they have a problem with transmitting blood to their members. They would rather let them die! Obviously, people's lives have no value to them!

I like Churches. Besides the Protestants ones, the Mormons will be my favorite too. I don't care what the Mormons believe. I just want to visit the churches. They make me feel better.

[Bassil]

52 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

The amount of errors are to many to address. Maybe do one topic at a time.

Thank you for the advice.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Bassil said:

. I don't care what the Mormons believe. I just want to visit the churches. They make me feel better.

We like visitors, so sounds okay.   

Do you get to travel at all outside of Yemen?

[Bassil]

38 minutes ago, Calm said:

Would you please provide the references you studied that showed this.

It was an old thing. Matthew 28:19 is at least a source of debate. You can google it and find yourself. I can't remember any studies about it right now.

[Bassil]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

Do you get to travel at all outside of Yemen?

Before traveling abroad was easier. When I went to Egypt in 2004, I just bought a ticket and headed toward the airport. Now traveling is hard. To go to Egypt I have to be 50 years old at least. I need to wait four years more.

[Smiley McGee]

4 hours ago, Bassil said:

after the death of John the Baptist, his disciples followed Jesus, and they were the ones who practiced baptism. If Jesus declared the practice was wrong he would be saying John the Baptist was wrong. Bad idea.

 

2 hours ago, Bassil said:

That John the Baptist baptized Jesus is a story based on hearsay, not witnessed.

In case anyone here is studying confirmation bias and needs an example. Though it’s so blatant I can’t guarantee these statements were said unironically. 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Bassil said:

Explanation: after the death of John the Baptist, his disciples followed Jesus, and they were the ones who practiced baptism. If Jesus declared the practice was wrong he would be saying John the Baptist was wrong. Bad idea. By practicing Baptism, we are following John, not Jesus.

Why would that be a bad idea?  Jesus was hardly one who was shy about calling out those respected by others as hypocrites or mistaken in other ways. 

[Bassil]

24 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why would that be a bad idea?

Those followers would've left Jesus and many of the common people. They loved John. Jesus let those students of John baptize with water for that reason. The real baptism is that by the Holy Spirit, the second birth. I remember a servant told me once that wearing the cross and baptism with water is not a necessary thing.

[MustardSeed]

9 minutes ago, Bassil said:

Those followers would've left Jesus and many of the common people. They loved John. Jesus let those students of John baptize with water for that reason. The real baptism is that by the Holy Spirit, the second birth. I remember a servant told me once that wearing the cross and baptism with water is not a necessary thing.

Our church does not believe wearing a cross is necessary but we do wear clothing every day that symbolizes our commitment to Jesus Christ.  
We do believe immersive baptism is necessary. 

[Tacenda]

16 minutes ago, Bassil said:

Those followers would've left Jesus and many of the common people. They loved John. Jesus let those students of John baptize with water for that reason. The real baptism is that by the Holy Spirit, the second birth. I remember a servant told me once that wearing the cross and baptism with water is not a necessary thing.

Not responding to this post but all of these on the topic. I feel you've done your research and took to heart what you've studied. I think that you've come to your conclusion about the scriptures and I believe that everyone has that right to see in the scriptures what they want. I have been a real fence sitter whether or not to stay all in the Mormon or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints church. And the only thing keeping me from jumping to the other side, is the people and it being the only thing I've known. So here I sit! The members for the most part are some incredible people among many members of different faiths, I just don't know a lot outside of my life's religion. 

I know you've had some push back on what you're saying, but I want to belong to your church!  I like what you've seen in between the lines in the scriptures! I've been negative of the Bible scriptures for a while now. And the fact that you see Jesus as being the only prophet (my words) suit me. 

I hope you don't leave the board because of the push back remarks, because as long as you're civil and don't break the rules of the board, you can say exactly how you believe. 

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Tacenda

[pogi]

24 minutes ago, Bassil said:

The real baptism is that by the Holy Spirit, the second birth. 

Born of water and spirit, is what Christ taught.  Christ himself being the exemplar being baptized of water and baptized of the Spirit as it descended upon him as a dove.  I understand you think this is hearsay, but have you considered Andrew and one of John's other disciples who followed Christ after John stated that he was the "Lamb of God"?  Where they not there to witness his baptism?

Jesus later commanded his disciples:

Quote

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.  (Matt 28:19,20)0

The disciples did exactly as he commanded:

Quote

And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. 

Water and spirit - just as Jesus said and did. 

Edited August 18, 2023 by pogi

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

Except the parts that say he was baptized, or any other part that doesn't jive with your theory. 

How do you have a special understanding of Jesus that we all lack when we are all reading from the same words?   Do you have some extra-biblical codex that reveals the one true interpretation of the Gospels?    

I think he means to say Jesus did it by water because John did it that way, but all you really need is to be baptized by the spirit. https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/you-will-be-baptized-with-the-holy-spirit

So Jesus is saying here in Acts 1:5, “This is going to happen in just a few days — you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. John immersed you in water; I am going to immerse you in the Holy Spirit. John drenched you in water; I am going to drench you in the Holy Spirit. This is the fourth thing you need in order to be effective instruments of my life in the world. You need to be baptized in the Holy Spirit.”

Edited August 18, 2023 by Tacenda

[Bassil]

11 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

And the fact that you see Jesus as being the only prophet (my words) suit me.

I see Jesus as the only way. No one can give life but Jesus.

[Bassil]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

Born of water and spirit

Water means semen. It means born by flesh and then by spirit. 

[Pyreaux]

You aren't the only person at church or on this message board with controversial and unorthodox beliefs. Mormonism itself is rather unorthodox Christianity. Here we debate and challenge new ideas, so expect to be challenged, so try not to be offended and don't be intimidated. Mormons do accept a theory that scriptures were probably tampered with. Your rejection of old prophets and John is very wild and extreme to say without carefully walking us through the logic.

As for "calls for references", is there a book or resource that you can share with us that told you exactly which parts of the New Testament has been tampered with? It would help explain what you are saying. Or are these unique observations. It would be fascinating to know the issue before we choose why we disagree with them. Are we discussing manuscripts issues or just inconsistent textually issues? It all makes a difference.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Pyreaux