To understand Jesus words and behavior we need to understand Jesus himself first

[CV75]

5 hours ago, Bassil said:

"

although Jesus Himself was not
baptizing, but His disciples were

" (John, 4:2)

If we understood Jesus, we would know he doesn't approve of the baptism practice.

Explanation: after the death of John the Baptist, his disciples followed Jesus, and they were the ones who practiced baptism. If Jesus declared the practice was wrong he would be saying John the Baptist was wrong. Bad idea. By practicing Baptism, we are following John, not Jesus.

                               *          *            *

"

Then render to Caesar
the things that are Caesar's

" (Matthew, 22:21)

If we understood Jesus we would know he would never approve of unjust and tyranny. He said, if you believe that you have something belonging to Caesar then give it back to him. The question is, did people believe that they have something that belong to Caesar? They don't. Jesus didn't believe that Caesar has the right to tax people.

                           *          *          *

The verses in John 5:31-47 are tough to be understood without understanding Jesus himself. Jesus gives the keys to understanding his words. The key here is verse 39.

"

You search the Scriptures because
you think that in them you have eternal
life...

" (John, 5:39)

The key phrase here is, 'Because you think.' He didn't say, 'Because in them you eternal life.' He said, 'Because you think that in them you have eternal life.' Jesus says, 'The scriptures don't give us eternal life, but he does.'

Jesus doesn't accept the prophecies of so-called 'prophets.'

The only testimony Jesus accept is God's, through his works.

"

I do not accept praise from men

" (John, 5:41)

"

And the Father who sent me has
himself testified concerning me.

" (John, 5:37)

"

I have testimony weightier than that of
John. For the very work that the Father
has given me to finish, and which I am
doing, testifies that the Father has sent
me.

" (John, 5:36)

"

The miracles I do in
my Father's name speak for me

" (John, 10:25)

Someone may say, but Jesus said:

"

it is these that testify about Me

" (John, 5:39)

It means, 'Even your scriptures are on my side. They won't help you against me.'

Someone may say, but Jesus said:

"

For if you believed Moses, you would
believe Me, for he wrote about Me.

" (John, 5:46)

There's no Moses. Jesus here was making an analogy about his mission. This analogy was written in Exodus. Jesus would mention it again.

"

As Moses lifted up the serpent in the
wilderness, even so must the Son of
Man be lifted up

" (John, 3:14)

That was the analogy Jesus meant.

Jesus described the priesthood of the temple as 'serpents.' 

"

You serpents, you brood of vipers

" (Matthew, 23:33)

"

You brood of vipers

" (Matthew, 12:34)

What Jesus is saying, he came down to free us from religions represented by the priesthoods.

Yes, we are each born with the light of Christ shining in us, so He is the first "anything" we understand ("experience") at the most fundamental level. We may or may not remember that. But the more of that light we retain, the more we understand Him, since this light carries His word and behavior at a spiritual level.

[ksfisher]

20 minutes ago, Bassil said:

I see Jesus as the only way. No one can give life but Jesus.

That's true, Christ is the only Savior.  However, we believe that prophets are called to teach us about Christ and reveal His will to us.  They act as His spokesman on earth.

[CV75]

18 minutes ago, Bassil said:

Water means semen. It means born by flesh and then by spirit. 

Water means womb.

[pogi]

24 minutes ago, Bassil said:

Water means semen. It means born by flesh and then by spirit. 

As has been pointed out, that water means amniotic fluid of the womb.  We are born into the world out of water and of spirit which gives life.  That is the first birth - water and spirit.  

The second birth is matched with symbology of the first.  We are immersed in the waters of baptism like a mothers womb, and are endowed with the Holly Ghost - The second birth.  Both births require coming out of water and being endowed with spirit.

 

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

However, you would still be welcomed to join a congregation when they meet together and participate in any social or service activities they might have.

Hmmm. . . . . . 😀 You worded that carefully. I am not sure I agree with you on that anymore. Perhaps as Mark might say, it depends on what you mean by "join."

Edited August 18, 2023 by Navidad

[Navidad]

49 minutes ago, Bassil said:

Water means semen. It means born by flesh and then by spirit. 

FWIW, there are many Christians of different denomination who believe this. Or perhaps said another way, as being born of the womb, which is an immersive experience.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Navidad

[Navidad]

30 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Water means womb.

 

19 minutes ago, pogi said:

The second birth is matched with symbology of the first.  We are immersed in the waters of baptism like a mothers womb, and are endowed with the Holly Ghost - The second birth.  Both births require coming out of water and being endowed with spirit.

That is also an interpretation held by many Christians as well. There really is quite a diversity of beliefs about baptism in the Christian world.

I don't think Christ is going to ask us one by one at the judgment seat where all things are settled, whether or not we were baptized, by whom, or by what mode. I believe that so strongly I am willing to risk my eternal destiny on it. That doesn't mean I don't think baptism isn't important, I just don't think it has any salvific qualities to it. I believe giving a testimony in a sacrament service is important. It isn't salvific. I put baptism in that same role.

[Bassil]

40 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

so try not to be offended and don't be intimidated.

I was threatened by some to be reported.

[Bassil]

42 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Or are these unique observations.

It's my observations.

[CV75]

11 minutes ago, Navidad said:

FWIW, there are many Christians of different denomination who believe this. Or perhaps said another way, as being born of the womb, which is an immersive experience.

Yes, and sometimes "semen" means the sexual energy or material sperm/egg of either the male or female, both having the seeds of life of their own kind to combine to bring forth life. Some Christian gnostic groups practiced some interesting rituals with semen and menstrual blood, the symbolism being parallel to the rituals of more "mainstream" groups.

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, Navidad said:

You worded that carefully

You are right.  I missed that.  I will replace “join” with “meet with”. Does that convey the appropriate understanding?  I wanted to include your experience without making it too complicated.  I thought you might want to share your own attempts to worship with us without becoming a baptized member.

[Navidad]

10 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yes, and sometimes "semen" means the sexual energy or material sperm/egg of either the male or female, both having the seeds of life of their own kind to combine to bring forth life. Some Christian gnostic groups practiced some interesting rituals with semen and menstrual blood, the symbolism being parallel to the rituals of more "mainstream" groups.

Yes, there is always a lot of controversy among scholars as to what exactly the Gnostics taught and what were their practices. Same with the Nestorians, a group which has always fascinated me.

[The Nehor]

The “throw out anything that disagrees with me” method of scriptural interpretation is common but not very enlightening.

[pogi]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

 

That is also an interpretation held by many Christians as well. There really is quite a diversity of beliefs about baptism in the Christian world.

Just about anything beats the “semen” interpretation, I’d say.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

I don't think Christ is going to ask us one by one at the judgment seat where all things are settled, whether or not we were baptized, by whom, or by what mode.

Odd.  He won't know?

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Bassil said:

It's my observations.

I have been thinking about your comments this afternoon.  I can understand why the John:10:8 scripture causes you to reject prophets and possibly religious leadership like the Levitical priesthood.

However, I am wondering how you determine know to reject everything else since the scribes and religious leaders who wrote, preserved, and chose to include in the New Testament the scriptures you accept are the same ones who wrote the rest of the New Testament.  I can see choosing to narrow your study to scriptures focusing on Jesus and to keep to the earliest known texts, but don’t understand why you outright reject the rest as false doctrine if I understand you correctly.

Are there any nonNew Testament scriptures you believe are of the Spirit?

[Smiley McGee]

7 hours ago, Bassil said:

Water means semen.

Ah yes, my favorite miracle of Jesus was when he told some servants to fill some large jars with semen and then he turned it all to wine…

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Odd.  He won't know?

Not odd at all. My  understanding is that we will be asked to give an account for our lives before Him. It doesn't imply He wont already know. Perhaps the intent is to find out how honest we are? Take care.

[CV75]

8 minutes ago, Smiley McGee said:

Ah yes, my favorite miracle of Jesus was when he told some servants to fill some large jars with semen and then he turned it all to wine…

Seamen make their living on the water.

[teddyaware]

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

 

That is also an interpretation held by many Christians as well. There really is quite a diversity of beliefs about baptism in the Christian world.

I don't think Christ is going to ask us one by one at the judgment seat where all things are settled, whether or not we were baptized, by whom, or by what mode. I believe that so strongly I am willing to risk my eternal destiny on it. That doesn't mean I don't think baptism isn't important, I just don't think it has any salvific qualities to it. I believe giving a testimony in a sacrament service is important. It isn't salvific. I put baptism in that same role.

You say this in spite of the fact that Christ clearly testified otherwise. Please note that in the following excerpt from Mark Christ instructs his apostles that believing isn’t enough, for belief must be followed by baptism. If baptism isn’t a requirement for salvation, why did the Lord bother to teach that it is?

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damed. (Mark 16) 

Edited August 19, 2023 by teddyaware

[CV75]

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

 

That is also an interpretation held by many Christians as well. There really is quite a diversity of beliefs about baptism in the Christian world.

I don't think Christ is going to ask us one by one at the judgment seat where all things are settled, whether or not we were baptized, by whom, or by what mode. I believe that so strongly I am willing to risk my eternal destiny on it. That doesn't mean I don't think baptism isn't important, I just don't think it has any salvific qualities to it. I believe giving a testimony in a sacrament service is important. It isn't salvific. I put baptism in that same role.

Yes, everyone will be resurrected no matter what and, as we believe, receive an abode in a kingdom of glory. But the old and new testaments are that joy is in the covenant relationship with God, bound together and sealed simultaneously in heaven and on earth, and requiring voluntary, good-faith submission to specific physical ordinances in the flesh, using our bodies as well as our faith. These testaments add that those who did not keep them, or rejected them in the flesh, or made up their own terms in any dispensation were denied this joy.

[Bassil]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Are there any nonNew Testament scriptures you believe are of the Spirit?

No. I don't believe in the driven by the Holy Spirit concept. Do you think Psalm 109 was inspired by the Holy Spirit?

"

Let his children be fatherless And his
wife a widow.
Let his children wander about and beg;
And let them seek sustenance far from
their ruined homes.

" (Psalm, 109:9,10)

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bassil said:

don't believe in the driven by the Holy Spirit concept. 

I believe in revelation, I have never cared enough about Psalm 109 to pray to see if the Spirit would inform me about that psalm. 
 

How did you come to believe the scriptures about Jesus were true then? (The ones you accept as true).  What proves them true for you?

Edited August 19, 2023 by Calm

[The Nehor]

12 hours ago, Bassil said:

Water means semen. It means born by flesh and then by spirit. 

Why would it mean that? It is not particularly watery.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

Ah yes, my favorite miracle of Jesus was when he told some servants to fill some large jars with semen and then he turned it all to wine…

That would make for an interesting wedding.