I’ve been vindicated, church caught with hands in cookie jar

[Craig Speechly]

Last month I posted that the church had been caught skirting the Australian law by using the ldsAustralian charity as a shell company to funnel funds through in an attempt to make tithing donations tax deductible for Australian members. It was clearly in violation of the spirit of the law.  Well their scheme has turned into another PR disaster. things are starting to heat up. https://kutv.com/news/local/report-claims-church-changing-tax-structure-in-australia-to-avoid-breach-in-tax-laws 

 

https://www.smh.com.au/national/mormons-walk-away-from-major-multinational-tax-evasion-scheme-20230705-p5dlxs.html

Edited July 14, 2023 by Craig Speechly

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

Last month I posted that the church had been caught skirting the Australian law by using the ldsAustralian charity as a shell company to funnel funds through in an attempt to make tithing donations tax deductible for Australian members. It was clearly in violation of the spirit of the law.  Well their scheme has turned into another PR disaster. things are starting to heat up. https://kutv.com/news/local/report-claims-church-changing-tax-structure-in-australia-to-avoid-breach-in-tax-laws 

Sounds like there are allegations that what they did wasn't legal but they haven't actually been caught doing anything illegal (though I'm sure that could change since this stuff is still ongoing).  I'm glad they are changing things and clearly they need to get their stuff together and stop doing risky maneuvers to try not to pay taxes.  Even when it flies, it's bad optics now.

[webbles]

I read the article and the article it links to.  This isn't anything new.  It is reporting that the amount sent to one of the church's organizations in Australia has decreased but you already posted that earlier.  It doesn't have any details on why the church did that or if that will actually affect Australian members.

Since the allegation is that the church was trying to make tithing donations fully tax deductible, you will be vindicated once members start to pay taxes on their tithing donations.  Any ideas when we'll learn that?

[Tacenda]

39 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Sounds like there are allegations that what they did wasn't legal but they haven't actually been caught doing anything illegal (though I'm sure that could change since this stuff is still ongoing).  I'm glad they are changing things and clearly they need to get their stuff together and stop doing risky maneuvers to try not to pay taxes.  Even when it flies, it's bad optics now.

And enough with churches being tax exempt if they also run businesses off the side making billions. Sorry, you know me and I do cross lines in saying stuff about it. But shouldn't they not want to avoid taxes if the taxes help people too?

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

And enough with churches being tax exempt if they also run businesses off the side making billions. Sorry, you know me and I do cross lines in saying stuff about it. But shouldn't they not want to avoid taxes if the taxes help people too?

As long as the businesses are paying taxes legally, then I'm fine with that.  

[smac97]

58 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

I’ve been vindicated, church caught with hands in cookie jar

Not sure about that.

58 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

Last month I posted that the church had been caught skirting the Australian law by using the lds Australian charity as a shell company to funnel funds through in an attempt to make tithing donations tax deductible for Australian members.

You're kinda scraping the bottom of the barrel here.

58 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

It was clearly in violation of the spirit of the law.  

"It was clearly in violation of the spirit of the law."

First, no, it wasn't.

Second, any lawful attempt to reduce a tax burden could be characterized this way.

Third. that you can only assert (not demonstrate) a purported "violation" of "the spirit of the law" is, in your view, a vindication of your various calumnies against the Church (I actually chuckled out loud when I read your breathless post characterizing this story as a "laundering scheme."

58 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

Well their scheme has turned into another PR disaster. things are starting to heat up. https://kutv.com/news/local/report-claims-church-changing-tax-structure-in-australia-to-avoid-breach-in-tax-laws 

https://www.smh.com.au/national/mormons-walk-away-from-major-multinational-tax-evasion-scheme-20230705-p5dlxs.html

Oh, I think I see what you are claiming "vindication" about now.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

And enough with churches being tax exempt if they also run businesses off the side making billions.

Are you suggesting that the for-profit businesses owned by the Church (the ones "making billions") are not paying taxes?

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Sorry, you know me and I do cross lines in saying stuff about it. But shouldn't they not want to avoid taxes if the taxes help people too?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints pays all taxes that are required by law.

Do you dispute this?

Do you know anyone who pays more taxes than what are "required by law?"  Do you think that is a reasonable expectation?  Do you hold other groups or individuals to that expectation?

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited July 14, 2023 by smac97

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

Last month I posted that the church had been caught skirting the Australian law by using the ldsAustralian charity as a shell company to funnel funds through in an attempt to make tithing donations tax deductible for Australian members. It was clearly in violation of the spirit of the law.  Well their scheme has turned into another PR disaster. things are starting to heat up. https://kutv.com/news/local/report-claims-church-changing-tax-structure-in-australia-to-avoid-breach-in-tax-laws 

 

https://www.smh.com.au/national/mormons-walk-away-from-major-multinational-tax-evasion-scheme-20230705-p5dlxs.html

So the church adheres to the letter of the law, rather than the ‘spirit of the law’ (whatever sway that might hold in a court of law), to help the hard working saints pay their tithing without having to shell out additional funds to a profligate government, and you consider this to be the church getting caught with its hands in the cookie jar? Why isn’t this another of the endless examples of a wasteful government tying to get its grubby, greedy hands into its citizens’ cookie jars? 

Edited July 14, 2023 by teddyaware

[LoudmouthMormon]

By the way, Imma get this tattoed on my forehead:

"Minimizing the amount of taxes one is required to pay, is the duty of every law abiding person with a family to feed.  You can expect me to do everything within my power, to pay the absolute smallest amount of tax I can legally get away with.  I will jump through hoops.  I will open special accounts.  I will structure my paycheck, my spending habits, my saving habits, and any business ventures I have, in whatever legal way possible, if it saves me ten bucks on taxes.  If there's a legal way to pay tithing in a way that avoids taxes, I will take it.  I don't care if it's a popular or unpopular way - I'll do it.  If it's a risky way, I'll measure the risk, and do it if the risk is acceptable to me.  I will shake my fist with rage when I pay taxes, and I will cheer with glee when I get away with reducing the amount of tax I pay."

 

(I have a big forehead.  Because I'm so smart.  As opposed to all the small-forehead people out there who think paying more taxes is somehow a worthy, noble, just, or correct thing to do.)

Edited July 14, 2023 by LoudmouthMormon

[Tacenda]

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struggling....

@smac97 did I say the church didn't pay taxes on their business entities?

I just wondered why they would avoid taxes to the Australia government if it might help it's citizens. But apparently it's very wrong to have to pay taxes at all. 

ETA: But I understand the motive the church had in trying to make it easier on Australians to pay tithing.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

I totally posted nonsense. I am slow on the get go. What I should say is why is the church avoiding paying taxes at all if they're already tax exempt on the church side. I guess I'm not too savvy on tax issues but will do a better job at reading up.

I think they probably do it for the same reason that you and I try to legally lessen our tax burden when it's tax season.

[Pyreaux]

I don't concur with the OP. I don't think attempts to legally avoid taxes is wrong, I don't agree with these weird notions of taxes as charitable donations, while the donations to the church are not a charity but enrichment schemes. Income when given freely away should not be taxed. Churches, mosques, and synagogues are tax exempt because many of the services they offer are complimentary to government programs. When doling out tax breaks to some and not to others, churches should be far from those required to provide financial support to the government.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Tacenda]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think they probably do it for the same reason that you and I try to legally lessen our tax burden when it's tax season.

I'm struggling today with being all there. So I guess I shouldn't post without taking time again to understand the opening post. I deleted my post and then used it again. So hopefully it will be an answer to your reply.

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

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struggling....

@smac97 did I say the church didn't pay taxes on their business entities?

I just wondered why they would avoid taxes to the Australia government if it might help it's citizens. But apparently it's very wrong to have to pay taxes at all. 

What is happening isn't the church avoiding taxes.  The church appears to have structured their organizations so that members can fully deduct their tithing.  This is something that is unique to Australia.  The laws there do not consider donations to churches to be tax deductible unless the church matches certain rules.

So, this expose is over whether the Australian members should pay taxes on their tithing?

Edited July 14, 2023 by webbles

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

I don't concur with the OP. I don't think attempts to legally avoid taxes is wrong, I don't agree with these weird notions of taxes as charitable donations, while the donations to the church are not a charity but enrichment schemes. Income when given freely away should not be taxed. Churches, mosques, and synagogues are tax exempt because many of the services they offer are complimentary to government programs. When doling out tax breaks to some and not to others, churches should be far from those required to provide financial support to the government.

But if I'm right on this, could be wrong, I've heard or read that the church asks members to go to family and then government, or the reverse, before asking the church for help. I'd have to search and find where I got it though. Not sure exactly, I'm sure it varies from bishop to bishop. Found this:

22.12

Government and Community Resources

In many areas, members have access to government or community resources that help with basic needs. Such resources may include:

Health care assistance.

Food assistance.

Job training and placement services.

Mental health services.

Education programs.

Senior assistance programs.

Housing assistance.

Members are encouraged to explore these resources, in addition to resources provided by the Church (see 22.13).

ETA: And in this article it mentions how the church and government welfare laws in Utah are entangled so much that it's difficult to get enough help from either according this family in the article:

https://www.propublica.org/article/utahs-social-safety-net-is-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints-what-does-that-mean-if-youre-not-one#:~:text=(Indeed%2C the LDS “General,before going to their bishop.)

ETAA: @Pyreaux, I've run out of my allowed posts for now so I'm using my editing privileges, yay. I just added this article too if interested. My main point is showing that the government helps so should the church (edited from "we") totally avoid paying taxes if the government helps the church? But you may not have seen where I think it's a good thing for the church to help Australians avoid being taxed on top of paying tithing. 

@Pyreaux Just saw your recent edit and wanted to answer with this article. But am miffed when the churches out there are tax exempt and maybe don't do enough to substantiate that and make billions off commercial or the market because of tithes that came in and being able to build a rainy day fund that large where members can't do the same usually and scraping by.

https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/915/faith-based-organizations-and-government

@Pyreaux a couple I found: https://www.governmentgrants.us/church-grants/    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/03/budget-religion/520605/

Edited July 14, 2023 by Tacenda

[Pyreaux]

53 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

But if I'm right on this, could be wrong, I've heard or read that the church asks members to go to family and then government, or the reverse, before asking the church for help. I'd have to search and find where I got it though. Not sure exactly, I'm sure it varies from bishop to bishop. Found this:

22.12

Government and Community Resources

In many areas, members have access to government or community resources that help with basic needs. Such resources may include:

Health care assistance.

Food assistance.

Job training and placement services.

Mental health services.

Education programs.

Senior assistance programs.

Housing assistance.

Members are encouraged to explore these resources, in addition to resources provided by the Church (see 22.13).

We are asked to look to family for assistance first. Are you saying these supplemental church programs funded by donations shouldn't be used in tandem with other programs they are also entitled to, funded by mandatory taxes? 

I think government agencies also encourage others to seek out non-government charities for additional assistance.

Quote

My main point is showing that the government helps so should we totally avoid paying taxes if the government helps the church?

What do you mean? Why should the church pay taxes because the government helps a member of the church who doubles as a tax paying citizen?

Edited July 14, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Calm]

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Because I'm so smart.  As opposed to all the small-forehead people out there who think paying more taxes is somehow a worthy, noble, just, or correct thing to do.)

If you are using government provided services a lot, then I see no reason why you shouldn’t be willing to pay taxes, especially if it doesn’t create hardship for you.

[blackstrap]

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

(I have a big forehead.

That's called a fivehead or perhaps in your case a sixhead. 😊

[Craig Speechly]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

I don't concur with the OP. I don't think attempts to legally avoid taxes is wrong, I don't agree with these weird notions of taxes as charitable donations, while the donations to the church are not a charity but enrichment schemes. Income when given freely away should not be taxed. Churches, mosques, and synagogues are tax exempt because many of the services they offer are complimentary to government programs. When doling out tax breaks to some and not to others, churches should be far from those required to provide financial support to the government.

Am I the only one that sees a pattern of the church using shell companies to skirt the law and avoid paying taxes?  If this Australian scheme were in fact legal and above board why not continue its use for the benefits it’s Aussie members?  But instead having been caught in yet another scheme the church is abandoning it. Just saying. 
 

Am I the only one here who is seeing a pattern of using shell companies and schemes to avoid paying taxes.   And let me be clear. I fully support the legal avoidance of paying taxes but that is not what the church has been caught doing  

Tithing is not tax deductible in Australia. Knowing this the church devised a scheme whereby they would funnel non Australian generated funds through a shell charity to give the false impression that Australian members were making generous donations to a qualified charity making their tithes deductible. Or so they thought. Members may now have to pay back taxes and penalties due to this scheme 

 

Had it been legal the church would have never abandoned it. But because it is not within the law they have been forced to expose their members to who knows what. Very sad. 

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Quote

Quote

And enough with churches being tax exempt if they also run businesses off the side making billions.

Are you suggesting that the for-profit businesses owned by the Church (the ones "making billions") are not paying taxes?

deleted...

struggling....

@smac97 did I say the church didn't pay taxes on their business entities?

No.  Hence my question about if you were "suggesting" (as opposing to "saying") that.

There are all sorts of churches (and various other not-for-profit entities) that "run {for-profit} businesses" and make money from them.  The non-profit doesn't pay taxes, but their for-profit businesses do.  I don't see how that is problematic (unless there is an underlying assumption/inference that such for-profit businesses are somehow privileged re: tax obligations).

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I just wondered why they would avoid taxes to the Australia government if it might help it's citizens. But apparently it's very wrong to have to pay taxes at all. 

The Church has never said or implied any such thing.  

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

ETA: But I understand the motive the church had in trying to make it easier on Australians to pay tithing.

I am glad of that.  So why are you calling for the Church to lose its tax exemption?  It is complying with the law.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Pyreaux]

25 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

Am I the only one that sees a pattern of the church using shell companies to skirt the law and avoid paying taxes?  If this Australian scheme were in fact legal and above board why not continue its use for the benefits it’s Aussie members?  But instead having been caught in yet another scheme the church is abandoning it. Just saying. 
 

Am I the only one here who is seeing a pattern of using shell companies and schemes to avoid paying taxes.   And let me be clear. I fully support the legal avoidance of paying taxes but that is not what the church has been caught doing  

Tithing is not tax deductible in Australia. Knowing this the church devised a scheme whereby they would funnel non Australian generated funds through a shell charity to give the false impression that Australian members were making generous donations to a qualified charity making their tithes deductible. Or so they thought. Members may now have to pay back taxes and penalties due to this scheme 

Had it been legal the church would have never abandoned it. But because it is not within the law they have been forced to expose their members to who knows what. Very sad. 

You presume a lot. You sure by abandoning their tactics they aren't merely taking earnest action due to the poor publicity and/or prospect of future law changes, rather than admitting guilt to violating the current tax law or vindicating all public outcry?

Edited July 14, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Craig Speechly]

6 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

You presume a lot. You sure by abandoning their tactics they aren't merely taking earnest action due to the poor publicity and/or prospect of future law changes, rather than admitting guilt to violating the current tax law or vindicating all public outcry?

We will never be made aware of the behind the scenes negotiations, penalties and back taxes the church had been forced to pay. But if it had been found legal and within the law they would have never abandon the scheme. 

[Craig Speechly]

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law except in Australia, the USA and Canada where we will devise every means possible to skirt the law and set up shell companies in an attempt to avoid the paying of our legal tax liability unless caught and exposed wherein we will comply with the law. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Craig Speechly

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Craig Speechly said:

Am I the only one that sees a pattern of the church using shell companies to skirt the law and avoid paying taxes

Where has the Church avoided paying taxes?

In Australia, it has helped members avoid paying taxes.  This may have a minor effect of members paying the Church more in fast offerings or other donations then they would have, perhaps the extra money in their pocket gets sent to the Church somehow, but since tithing is a fixed amount of 10%, doesn’t seem like it would increase that at least beyond the full tithe payer amount.  So the Church might benefit a bit from that financially, but no control over how much, if any it did.

In the US, with the SEC complaint, while the shell companies hid ownership, they didn’t change the tax amount.

And my understanding of the incorrect amount of church assets listed on the IRS form (909?) did not change taxes at all, it was again not providing info on assets only.

The assumption the Church would only change their methods based on legality reminds me of an anecdote I heard eons ago where originally the Church purchased high end cars for the Church car fleet due to maintenance costs being so much lower for them, in the long run it was cheaper to buy those more expensive cars than less expensive ones.  However, they changed to buying less expensive upfront, but more expensive long term due to the blowback they got from people seeing the expensive cars driving around Salt Lake City.  Sometimes going with optics rather than a more prudent financial decision is necessary for a highly visible organization that does depend on in part the good will of the public.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Calm

[webbles]

51 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

Am I the only one that sees a pattern of the church using shell companies to skirt the law and avoid paying taxes?  If this Australian scheme were in fact legal and above board why not continue its use for the benefits it’s Aussie members?  But instead having been caught in yet another scheme the church is abandoning it. Just saying. 
 

Am I the only one here who is seeing a pattern of using shell companies and schemes to avoid paying taxes.   And let me be clear. I fully support the legal avoidance of paying taxes but that is not what the church has been caught doing  

Tithing is not tax deductible in Australia. Knowing this the church devised a scheme whereby they would funnel non Australian generated funds through a shell charity to give the false impression that Australian members were making generous donations to a qualified charity making their tithes deductible. Or so they thought. Members may now have to pay back taxes and penalties due to this scheme 

 

Had it been legal the church would have never abandoned it. But because it is not within the law they have been forced to expose their members to who knows what. Very sad. 

The only thing we know is that the amount of money going into one of the church's organizations has gone down.  But the end goal for all of that was to allow Australian members to deduct tithing.  Has that been changed?  Are Australian members now paying taxes on their tithing?  If they are, then yes, the church has abandoned it.  If they aren't, then they haven't abandoned it.  They just changed tactics.
 

None of the articles you linked to give any indication on whether this change in money has an affect on Australian members.  I'd rather see that and then we can say whether it worked or not.