The Grand Sign of the Coming of the Son of Man

[Stargazer]

As many of you know, I chose my screen name, Stargazer, because I have a particular interest in astronomy and astrophysics. Combine this with the "Signs of the Times" and there is an approaching astronomical event that may possibly herald a divine event. I'm speaking of a sign of the Second Coming, what Joseph Smith referred to as "one grand sign of the Son of Man in heaven". This is referred to in the book Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

When mentioning it, he says that the world will disregard its import: "But what will the world do? They will say it is a planet, a comet, etc." See Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, Chaper 34.

We do not know the actual nature of the sign, other than it will appear in the sky, and that it will be seen as an astronomical event, of no other import than any other event. And the Prophet doesn't say anything about the event that would indicate it might be a cause of destruction. 

In the Book of Revelation, there are astronomical events spoken of (chapter 8 which DO cause destruction on the earth. Besides geological events (e.g. an earthquake), a "star" called Wormwood will fall into the sea. It seems to be a comet or meteorite that emits poisonous substances that kills life in the seas, and sinks a third of the ships at sea (good time to avoid cruise ships). But I'm not looking to bring these events up.

What I do want to bring up is this "grand sign," and suggest that it might be a supernova, which when it ignites will be visible both night and day for a number of months. And we have a candidate for the supernova!

Yes, I'm talking about Betelgeuse.

Betelgeuse is a red supergiant star of spectral type M1-2 and one of the largest visible to the naked eye. It is usually the tenth-brightest star in the night sky and, after Rigel, the second-brightest in the constellation of Orion. It's believed to be about 8 million years old, and because of its size, it is near the end of its life on the main sequence. Without going into the astrophysics of the matter (some astronomers believe it is in the carbon-fusing stage, which is the last stage before kablooie), it is now believed by many astronomers that it may go supernova any time in the next 100,000 years. In other words, it could happen any day now. Or in a few more hundred years. For more information about this star, see the Wikipedia article linked to above.

One recent astrophysical paper, "Comment on the feasibility of carbon burning in Betelgeuse" postulates that Betelgeuse is already in the carbon-burning phase and is therefore close to a supernova explosion. Although one paper's author recently confirmed that their calculations suggest the carbon burning stage is still far from over and there are at least hundreds of years of burning left, after which it'll enter the final stages that will last about 3 decades. There will undoubtedly be more studies of this in the near future, as it is of particular interest to astrophysicists.

For recent information on this, have a watch of science YouTuber Anton Petrov's video "Potential Evidence That Betelgeuse May Go Supernova Early After All." 

Finally, for those of you who believe that there will be "grand sign", but aren't committed to Betelgeuse, what other kind of astronomical event do you think this means?

Edited June 28, 2023 by Stargazer

[CV75]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

As many of you know, I chose my screen name, Stargazer, because I have a particular interest in astronomy and astrophysics. Combine this with the "Signs of the Times" and there is an approaching astronomical event that may possibly herald a divine event. I'm speaking of a sign of the Second Coming, what Joseph Smith referred to as "one grand sign of the Son of Man in heaven". This is referred to in the book Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

When mentioning it, he says that the world will disregard its import: "But what will the world do? They will say it is a planet, a comet, etc." See Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, Chaper 34.

We do not know the actual nature of the sign, other than it will appear in the sky, and that it will be seen as an astronomical event, of no other import than any other event. And the Prophet doesn't say anything about the event that would indicate it might be a cause of destruction. 

In the Book of Revelation, there are astronomical events spoken of (chapter which DO cause destruction on the earth. Besides geological events (e.g. an earthquake), a "star" called Wormwood will fall into the sea. It seems to be a comet or meteorite that emits poisonous substances that kills life in the seas, and sinks a third of the ships at sea (good time to avoid cruise ships). But I'm not looking to bring these events up.

What I do want to bring up is this "grand sign," and suggest that it might be a supernova, which when it ignites will be visible both night and day for a number of months. And we have a candidate for the supernova!

Yes, I'm talking about Betelgeuse.

Betelgeuse is a red supergiant star of spectral type M1-2 and one of the largest visible to the naked eye. It is usually the tenth-brightest star in the night sky and, after Rigel, the second-brightest in the constellation of Orion. It's believed to be about 8 million years old, and because of its size, it is near the end of its life on the main sequence. Without going into the astrophysics of the matter (some astronomers believe it is in the carbon-fusing stage, which is the last stage before kablooie), it is now believed by many astronomers that it may go supernova any time in the next 100,000 years. In other words, it could happen any day now. Or in a few more hundred years. For more information about this star, see the Wikipedia article linked to above.

One recent astrophysical paper, "Comment on the feasibility of carbon burning in Betelgeuse" postulates that Betelgeuse is already in the carbon-burning phase and is therefore close to a supernova explosion. Although one paper's author recently confirmed that their calculations suggest the carbon burning stage is still far from over and there are at least hundreds of years of burning left, after which it'll enter the final stages that will last about 3 decades. There will undoubtedly be more studies of this in the near future, as it is of particular interest to astrophysicists.

For recent information on this, have a watch of science YouTuber Anton Petrov's video "Potential Evidence That Betelgeuse May Go Supernova Early After All." 

Finally, for those of you who believe that there will be "grand sign", but aren't committed to Betelgeuse, what other kind of astronomical event do you think this means?

I don't know, but the further away it is (Betelgeuse is 642.5 light years), the longer ago the occurrence that would eventually be observed from Earth. One way of guessing the "grand event" is to connect it with a simultaneous event similarly unrecognized by the world at large but known to those who have knowledge of the fullness of the gospel. So, one approach might be to identify such an earlier event of spiritual significance (e.g., First Vision, any of the events in Nephi's Vision, Moroni's hiding of the plates, Christ's appearing in America, etc. -- any of these unrecognized as such by the world at large), calculating  the number of years to the present day plus x number of years, and see what astronomical objects within that distance might have reacted in the past to produce such a phenomenon by that projected date.

Edited June 28, 2023 by CV75

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I don't know, but the further away it is (Betelgeuse is 642.5 light years), the longer ago the occurrence that would eventually be observed from Earth. One way of guessing the "grand event" is to connect it with a simultaneous event similarly unrecognized by the world at large but known to those who have knowledge of the fullness of the gospel. So, one approach might be to identify such an earlier event of spiritual significance (e.g., First Vision, any of the events in Nephi's Vision, Moroni's hiding of the plates, Christ's appearing in America, etc. -- any of these unrecognized as such by the world at large), calculating  the number of years to the present day plus x number of years, and see what astronomical objects within that distance might have reacted in the past to produce such a phenomenon by that projected date.

Nobody has any real idea of the identity of the star that appeared to herald the Savior's birth. It may not have been a star, but some other astronomical/astrological configuration recognized then but not now. 

The earliest possible recorded supernova, known as HB9, could have been viewed by unknown prehistoric people of the Indian subcontinent and then recorded on a rock carving, since found in Burzahama region in Kashmir and dated to 4500±1000 BC. Later, SN 185 was documented by Chinese astronomers in AD 185. The brightest recorded supernova was SN 1006, which occurred in AD 1006 in the constellation of Lupus. This event was described by observers across China, Japan, Iraq, Egypt, and Europe. The widely observed supernova SN 1054 produced the Crab Nebula. None of these are associated with any spiritual events.

[CV75]

9 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Nobody has any real idea of the identity of the star that appeared to herald the Savior's birth. It may not have been a star, but some other astronomical/astrological configuration recognized then but not now. 

The earliest possible recorded supernova, known as HB9, could have been viewed by unknown prehistoric people of the Indian subcontinent and then recorded on a rock carving, since found in Burzahama region in Kashmir and dated to 4500±1000 BC. Later, SN 185 was documented by Chinese astronomers in AD 185. The brightest recorded supernova was SN 1006, which occurred in AD 1006 in the constellation of Lupus. This event was described by observers across China, Japan, Iraq, Egypt, and Europe. The widely observed supernova SN 1054 produced the Crab Nebula. None of these are associated with any spiritual events.

What kinds of one-time astronomical phenomena disappear as quickly as the Star of Bethlehem did? A related question: how large an object would it have needed to be, and how far away, for measurable energy to remain from it today, as a possible means of configuring its source?

In similar fashion, how many lightyears away were the stars generating HB9, SN185, SN1006 and SN1054 events observed in their respective years?

It is amazing to me that these are visible from Earth for only a few months considering the amount of energy and volume in space involved.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

What kinds of one-time astronomical phenomena disappear as quickly as the Star of Bethlehem did? A related question: how large an object would it have needed to be, and how far away, for measurable energy to remain from it today, as a possible means of configuring its source?

We don't know how long it was visible. There's no historical record outside the New Testament that describes it.

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

It is amazing to me that these are visible from Earth for only a few months considering the amount of energy and volume in space involved.

Huge amounts of energy expanding into a large volume of space.

[CV75]

24 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

We don't know how long it was visible. There's no historical record outside the New Testament that describes it.

Huge amounts of energy expanding into a large volume of space.

So evidently no other significant observable astronomical event is scheduled to occur in the next 50 years or so.

[bsjkki]

Well, maybe we missed it. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-12243125/Harvards-Avi-Loeb-says-50-microscopic-spherules-recovered-Pacific-alien-probe.html

Edited June 28, 2023 by bsjkki

[Pyreaux]

My Messianic Jewish friends are always freaking out about astral signs, 4 bloodmoons in one year, the 2 eclipses that made a cross over the US. I don't know what been happening lately though. 

[Stargazer]

8 hours ago, CV75 said:

So evidently no other significant observable astronomical event is scheduled to occur in the next 50 years or so.

LOL, there is no "schedule". Betelgeuse is the most likely candidate for a naked-eye supernova in the near future, astronomically speaking. It could come next week, next year, next decade, or next century. I am simply proposing it as a candidate event for the Grand Sign of the Coming of the Son of Man. The sign might be something else entirely. But Betelgeuse blowing up would be quite spectacular in any case.

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Well, maybe we missed it. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-12243125/Harvards-Avi-Loeb-says-50-microscopic-spherules-recovered-Pacific-alien-probe.html

There's some others who are claiming this. And that there is a government coverup. 

Of course. As for me, I don't know. 

 

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Well, maybe we missed it. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-12243125/Harvards-Avi-Loeb-says-50-microscopic-spherules-recovered-Pacific-alien-probe.html

Not likely.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

LOL, there is no "schedule". Betelgeuse is the most likely candidate for a naked-eye supernova in the near future, astronomically speaking. It could come next week, next year, next decade, or next century. I am simply proposing it as a candidate event for the Grand Sign of the Coming of the Son of Man. The sign might be something else entirely. But Betelgeuse blowing up would be quite spectacular in any case.

Reminds me of a rather good sci-fi story:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star_(Clarke_short_story)

[Stargazer]

59 minutes ago, Calm said:

Reminds me of a rather good sci-fi story:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star_(Clarke_short_story)

Yes, I had read that story back in the day. A sad tale. But a very clever one, and one of my favorite short stories.

However, there is no supernova of any type in which Clarke's story could play out. Type I supernovae occur in systems where habitable planets cannot possibly exist. Type II occur in systems that undergo core collapse when the star in question is only several millions of years old, and thus there is no time for life to develop. This was not yet fully understood when Clarke wrote the story, so it would have seemed quite plausible to him at the time.

[Benjamin McGuire]

9 hours ago, Stargazer said:

It could come next week, next year, next decade, or next century.

Not really. I think you are misreading this stuff. The article about Betelgeuse being closer to exploding doesn't argue at all that it it is eminent (except on a cosmological scale). The phrase that has you going is this one:

Quote

After carbon is exhausted in the core, a core-collapse leading to a supernova explosion is expected in a few tens years.

The challenge is that the carbon in the core isn't exhausted yet. And one of the authors of the paper (Saio) has suggested that:

Quote

We just guess the time to the carbon exhaustion is probably less than a few hundred years.

Assuming that Betelgeuse has entered the carbon burning stage, we are still looking at a fairly long time before collapse is possible. If the theory is accurate (and that's a pretty large if), it will be several hundred years before the collapse begins (the part that will take "a few tens years"). This is reducing the anticipated lifespan of the star by orders of magnitude, but this doesn't mean that it could be soon by our standards. The likelihood that it happens within the next century is virtually non-existent, let alone in the next decade, next year, or next week - these last choices are, as far as the science goes, impossible.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Benjamin McGuire

[CA Steve]

1 hour ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

The likelihood that it happens within the next century is virtually non-existent, let alone in the next decade, next year, or next week - these last choices are, as far as the science goes, impossible.

Crap!

I wonder if I can get my deposit back on my backyard doomsday bunker?

😜

[Kenngo1969]

@Stargazer

While the astronomy in this discussion goes above the head of Your Humble Correspondent (One could fit everything I know about astronomy into a very small thimble—Whooosh! ), I am fascinated by the Second Coming and its accompanying signs, especially by the Sign of the Son of Man. 

Some have theorized that the "Sign of the Son of Man" is Christ's actual coming, which ... given Joseph Smith's rather clear equation of the Sign with some sort of astronomical phenomenon; the fact, I think, that very few people will mistake Christ's actual coming in glory for anything other than what it is; and the fact that, logically, it doesn't make sense to say that a sign of a thing is the thing (rather, a sign of the thing is a sign of the thing, while the thing is the actual thing) ... doesn't make sense to me.

Suffice it to say, there have been, are, and will be, "signs in the heavens above and in the earth beneath."  I wonder, as the time draws nearer, how much we will be left to our own discernment as to the nearness of His Coming and how much we can count on the Brethren to be at least a little bit less oblique in calling the signs of His Coming what they really are.

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

Not really. I think you are misreading this stuff. The article about Betelgeuse being closer to exploding doesn't argue at all that it it is eminent (except on a cosmological scale). The phrase that has you going is this one:

The challenge is that the carbon in the core isn't exhausted yet. And one of the authors of the paper (Saio) has suggested that:

Assuming that Betelgeuse has entered the carbon burning stage, we are still looking at a fairly long time before collapse is possible. If the theory is accurate (and that's a pretty large if), it will be several hundred years before the collapse begins (the part that will take "a few tens years"). This is reducing the anticipated lifespan of the star by orders of magnitude, but this doesn't mean that it could be soon by our standards. The likelihood that it happens within the next century is virtually non-existent, let alone in the next decade, next year, or next week - these last choices are, as far as the science goes, impossible.

Imminence is relative, as you say.

But I'm actually not misreading it. If I haven't already made it clear, I don't know any better than the experts, but their language is quite vague as to timing. I know very well that expecting it tomorrow, next week, or next year is certainly expecting it too soon. But next decade? Next century?

Humanity has never before observed the process, only the final result. We don't know enough about the process to be certain what kind of timescale the process involves. It's fusing carbon now. How quickly will carbon fusion run up to the finish line? You quoted Saio as: "We just guess the time to the carbon exhaustion is probably less than a few hundred years."

Note the key words there: "guess"; and "probably". And the time scale "less than a few hundred years". Do I need to point out to you that tomorrow is within a few hundred years from now? As is, next week, next month, next year, next decade, and next century. We simply do not know when this puppy will pop, even though we can say we don't think it's quite yet. Saio is hedging his prediction. He is sure it isn't quite ready to pop, but that's all. It's probably not time to set up an office betting pool on this one. 

My question to you is do you think the Grand Sign will be a supernova, or something else?

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I wonder, as the time draws nearer, how much we will be left to our own discernment as to the nearness of His Coming and how much we can count on the Brethren to be at least a little bit less oblique in calling the signs of His Coming what they really are.

Good question.

I expect that the Brethren will be more forthcoming about it as it approaches, but will be somewhat cagey about how they say it. Some of our non-LDS Christian brothers and sisters will also begin to notice things, too, and some of them will be talking about it as well. 

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, CA Steve said:

Crap!

I wonder if I can get my deposit back on my backyard doomsday bunker?

😜

Very amusing!

But just to help you avoid being taken in by potential misrepresenting salesmen, Betelgeuse blowing up will be a visual experience only. It's not close enough to affect us materially. Some sensitive souls might panic and do things that affect us indirectly, but Betelgeuse itself will just be a light show.

[Stargazer]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

Reminds me of a rather good sci-fi story:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star_(Clarke_short_story)

It just occurred to me that the Star Trek: Next Generation episode, "The Inner Light" seems to be a bit of a takeoff on Clarke's story. Have you ever seen it? It's quite a good episode! 

[Benjamin McGuire]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

But I'm actually not misreading it. If I haven't already made it clear, I don't know any better than the experts, but their language is quite vague as to timing. I know very well that expecting it tomorrow, next week, or next year is certainly expecting it too soon. But next decade? Next century?

No, those expectations are absurd - according to the science. So if you aren't misreading it, then you don't understand it. The paper itself that you reference doesn't allow for such a thing. The explosion of the star, it states would occur some decades after the carbon is all gone. But the carbon isn't gone - and so it cannot occur for decades at the very earliest (assuming that the carbon is in fact just about all gone - which the authors themselves don't believe).  So it cannot happen tomorrow. It cannot happen next week, It cannot happen in the next decade. It is, perhaps, possible that it could occur within a century - but no one - including the authors of this research - believes that this is the case. And this is assuming that these guesses are accurate - the paper has been heavily contested on some of its assumptions - the biggest being its claim that the 2,200 day periodic shift is the primary and not a secondary (this switch changes the math considerably).

So the question is, why do you?

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Note the key words there: "guess"; and "probably". And the time scale "less than a few hundred years". Do I need to point out to you that tomorrow is within a few hundred years from now? As is, next week, next month, next year, next decade, and next century.

I don't disagree with you - but this is simply wild speculation created only by the vagueness of the language and not the science. Consider this:

Quote

So, to put some headlines in perspective, Saio’s group isn’t saying Betelgeuse will blow tomorrow or even in the next decade. The researchers’ claim is that Betelgeuse would blow within 1,000 years rather than 10,000 or 100,000.

The research argues speculatively (and this is contested) that this is occurring faster than we originally thought would happen - that is, that it is possible that it could occur in hundreds of years instead of hundreds of thousands. But it doesn't mean at all that we should take the comments of the researcher (who obviously is not a native English speaker) and suggest that the most favorable interpretation of his language to your theory should be used rather than his science - which isn't anywhere near as favorable.

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

My question to you is do you think the Grand Sign will be a supernova, or something else?

I don't have a clue. Quite frankly, I think that it is pointless to speculate about it. My involvement here isn't about what it might be, it is simply to point out the problems with suggestions about what you think it is. And if we really want to parse the non-canonical statement by Joseph Smith about the grand sign - "But what will the world do? They will say it is a planet, a comet, etc." - if this is Betelgeuse exploding, we won't call it a planet, or a comet. Why? Because we will know what it is. More to the point, what is the nature of a planet or comet that isn't shared with a supernova? They move through the heavens. And that seems to be what Joseph Smith was indicating there. So we are discussing not only a literary interpretation of a recording of Something Joseph Smith said, but then trying to place that in the context of this research on the star Betelgeuse. It seems to me to be more than a little stretch - with no real value.

[CV75]

15 hours ago, Stargazer said:

LOL, there is no "schedule". Betelgeuse is the most likely candidate for a naked-eye supernova in the near future, astronomically speaking. It could come next week, next year, next decade, or next century. I am simply proposing it as a candidate event for the Grand Sign of the Coming of the Son of Man. The sign might be something else entirely. But Betelgeuse blowing up would be quite spectacular in any case.

[Kenngo1969]

Does anyone else see a sort of symmetry in the fact that an astronomical "sign" (a star) accompanied Christ's First Coming and that, according to Joseph Smith, likewise, an astronomical sign (but something that, of course, is not just an astronomical sign) will accompany his Second Coming?

P.S.: For what it's worth, I think this is interesting: https://www.ldsliving.com/what-the-sign-of-the-son-of-man-at-the-second-coming-means/s/90964

Edited June 29, 2023 by Kenngo1969

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

It just occurred to me that the Star Trek: Next Generation episode, "The Inner Light" seems to be a bit of a takeoff on Clarke's story. Have you ever seen it? It's quite a good episode! 

Yes, it is one I reference on occasion as a possibility of how we all might fairly and fully experienced mortality, since one lifetime is not enough to experience enough choices to understand the impact of agency.

[manol]

The Jewish people's expectations about the coming of Christ were way off base the first go-round. Presumably they emphasized scriptures and teachings and traditions which led them to expect something far more outwardly-visible and dramatic than what actually happened.  Those who recognized Christ did so because of something in the spiritual realm rather than something in the physical realm.  My opinion is that looking to the heavens for a sign, or looking for a temple to be built on the Mount of Olives, or whatever the case may be, is likewise focusing on the wrong realm. 

"The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke17:20-21

Maybe the place to look for Christ is within rather than without. 

Edited June 30, 2023 by manol