Lesson 17 - The Power of the Word - is the past still relevant for us today?

[InCognitus]

23 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Don’t you think the expression “priesthood of all believers” is an apt description of the priesthood organization as it exists today in the Lord’s restored church? After all, all male members of the church have a right to have the priesthood of Christ conferred upon them if they are deemed worthy, and every worthy female member has the right to be endowed with powers that are integral to that holy priesthood, including the right to legally officiate in the higher gospel ordinances of the temple.

I have often thought of it as the way you describe, a "priesthood of all believers" in the sense that all worthy males can receive the priesthood in contrast to the revised old covenant law that made the priesthood of Aaron to be restricted to Levite lineage.  The Israelites prior to breaking the covenant (as they did in Exodus 32) seemed to have it that way as well (like what I referenced in my post above:  Exo 2:16-3:1, 18:10-12, Exo 19:22-24), based on them keeping their covenants.

[mfbukowski]

If there exists a priesthood of all believers, why are there ordinations, the title of "reverend" and theological seminaries?

What does being "called to the ministry" mean, if all are so called?

Seriously.

I don't get it.

[theplains]

I'll need some time to prepare a reply. You wrote quite a bit across 2 posts  🙂

 

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

I'll need some time to prepare a reply. You wrote quite a bit across 2 posts  🙂

You started it  

[theplains]

On 6/23/2023 at 9:57 PM, InCognitus said:

While I think that sound doctrine is important, I don’t think there’s anything in scripture that says having faulty doctrine disqualifies a person from being a true believer in Christ.  We previously discussed Apollos and how he was a true believer in Christ even though he had an imperfect understanding of the doctrine (Acts 18:24-26).  God judges us based on how we respond to what truths we’ve been given and how we treat our neighbors.  Our real belief in Christ is known by our love for one another.  

I believe God has sufficiently revealed truths we need to know to be saved (John 20:30-31).  
Someone who believes in and worships a false god is not saved, no matter how sincere they 
may be. Some in the exodus out of Egypt learned this the hard way.

I suppose some could consider their real belief in Christ if they showed love towards others 
(Muslims whose Jesus is only a prophet / Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists whose 
Jesus is Michael the Archangel / and Buddhists whose Jesus is a great teacher). 
 
We need to be careful how we interpret John 13:35 (By this shall all men know that ye are my 
disciples, if ye have love one to another).  I don't think Jesus meant his words for those 
who preach a false Christ and false gospel (2 Corinthians 11:4).
 

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But true doctrine can only be known by revelation from God and having a correct understanding of the scriptures which can only come by revelation from God.

Based on the scriptures, Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother were not eternal/uncreated 
spirits who became God and Goddess on some earth who then bore spirit children to populate 
our Earth. Likewise, Jesus was not the first spirit child of heavenly parents who became 
a God in his pre-mortal existence.

It is easy to identify these as false doctrines.  There is no salvation when one places 
their faith in a false god.
 

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People can come up with their own interpretation of scriptures based on philosophy and man's wisdom and reasoning, but the end result may not be anything like what God intended. God's wisdom comes through the Spirit of God.

The LDS church committed this same error by teaching and worshipping a different god; 
different from even the one found in their scriptures (Moroni 7:22; Mosiah 3:5; 
Doctrine and Covenants 20:17; 39:1; 61:1; 76:4).
 

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So the website clearly teaches that the Father and Son are not one in singularity, but rather they are two separate entities that are one in unity, in the same way as a husband and wife are to be in unity. This is exactly what Latter-day Saints teach about the Godhead as well.

Joseph Smith taught the Trinity is 3 Gods.

I don't fully understand the Trinity but I believe it is  simply explained as 1 God in 
3 co-eternal persons.  I don't believe that the Holy Ghost is another spirit child of 
heavenly parents who also became a God.

While I don't agree with everything in the Book of Mormon, I would agree with this part 
in Alma 11:26-31 (about there not being more than one God).  Some insert the words, "but 
for this Earth" or "with whom we have to deal with", or "one Godhead" to rationalize the 
statement.

Maybe Nephi should have translated "which is one God" to "which are three Gods" in 2 
Nephi 31.
 

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Since there are so many things in traditional Christian doctrine that don't really come from scripture at all, I don't see why these are points of contention between us.

We do share some common beliefs, like love toward our neighbour (charity, etc), terms 
and names.  But the terms and names have very different meanings in our respective 
theology.  For example, the true nature of God – whether he always exists as God or 
whether he exists in a pantheon of people who progressed into becoming Gods.
 

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There is nothing in what Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 to imply that the church cannot die or that there would be no apostasy. And it can't be "destroyed" permanently because Jesus has power over death.

Apart from my belief that the church of Christ cannot be destroyed, neither can it 
die.  Jesus is building it.  I believe some apostasy occurred, but not a total apostasy.  
A significant apostasy occurs in the future time of the beast and false prophet (with 
their lying signs and wonders).
 

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The death of the church was temporary, as there was a restoration of the gospel, a resurrection from the dead, and it will triumph in the end.

I don't believe in a temporary death of Christ's church but I understand it is one of 
the central themes of the LDS faith since Joseph Smith's account of the "First Vision" 
– that all their creeds are an abomination and that all their professors are corrupt.
 

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Then you do believe there are other priests. That's good to know. That's what I was trying to determine, since you seemed to imply that there were no longer any priests but one.

The church I attend does not have a formal priesthood as in your church, with quorums 
and high priests.  It is more of a spiritual priesthood; of believers – male and female. 
But we do have a leadership of pastors, deacons, etc.  We have only one high priest 
(Christ).

In the Old Testament priesthood system, there was only one concurrent high priest.  Only 
he could enter the Holy of Holies , and only once a year at that.  There was no such 
thing as ordaining teenagers or twenty-something year-olds to high priests.

In the atonement , Christ tears apart the temple veil.  Now we can approach God directly 
through Christ (Hebrews chapters 9 and 10).  We have no need for LDS high priests or high 
priests from any other religious group.
 

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1 Peter 5 only mentions that some in the church are elders who watch over the flock of God:
"The elders which are among youI exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind"(1 Peter 5:1–2)
This disproves the "priesthood of believers" in general, really, since only some of them are called to be elders and to watch over the flock.

Apart from the elders in each church that watch over the flock, the remainder of the 
males and females join them in key roles.  Christian women therefore are members of 
a royal priesthood, a holy nation, and a peculiar people.

1 Peter 2:5 - Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, 
to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:9 - But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a 
peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out 
of darkness into his marvellous light.
 

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Why don't you need apostles to lead you? Is it really out of need, or is it desire?

Before I can answer you, what are the qualifications of an apostle?  Maybe we can discuss 
this on the other thread I created recently.
 

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The false apostles are named in 2 Corinthians 11:12-13, and Revelation 2:2: "I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars"(Revelation 2:2).

I posted a new thread about apostles so maybe we can talk about it there.
 

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Yes, there are many interpretations of scripture. And even Christ's church in New Testament times had many schisms breaking off from it while the apostles were still alive (like those who would walk no more with Jesus [John 6:66], early schisms of Apollos or Cephas [1 Cor 1:11-14], those after Hymenaeus [1 Tim 1:20, 2 Tim 2:17], those after Alexander [1 Tim 1:20], and Phygellus and Hermogenes [2 Tim 1:15], etc. etc.). But the apostles were there to point out the problems and correct the false teachings (unlike what happened after the apostles were all killed or removed).

The so-called apostles of the Community of Christ and the FLDS also try to correct 
the false teachings of the main LDS sect.  But I think you would view them as false 
apostles.

The scriptures are sufficient to identify false teachers.  Even if every believer in 
Christ's church were to be killed, the church of Christ would still be alive.  Even 
with all the apostasy during Old Testament times, God still had a remnant of faithful 
believers.
 

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I'm glad you recognize that there is "every wind of doctrine" in Christianity, but don't you see that it is because the apostles and prophets were killed and every man had their own way with scripture instead of being governed by the leadership set up by Christ?

We find "every wind of doctrine" even among the various LDS sects.  Apart from some 
of these LDS sects (including the largest group), I cannot find any group in the branch 
of Christendom which teaches about and worships a man who became a God.

You focus too much on the church of Christ having a very rigid organizational structure.  
The church of Christ is spiritual in nature.  If all Christian believers except one were 
to die, the church of Christ would still be alive on earth.

In the beginning of the LDS church, Jesus did not even pick the 12.  He assigned three 
persons  (Doctrine and Covenants 18:37-39) to search out twelve others.  That might
explain why the church has 15 apostles today.

[telnetd]

On 6/24/2023 at 11:16 AM, InCognitus said:

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
(Matthew 28:16–20)

I don't see where Jesus is giving all men and women authority in these verses, do you?

All Christian believers qualify for verses 19 and 20. Jesus has authorized men and women to go, teach,
baptize, etc.  This can be in our home, at work, in our local state, or in another country.

[InCognitus]

7 minutes ago, telnetd said:

All Christian believers qualify for verses 19 and 20. Jesus has authorized men and women to go, teach,
baptize, etc.  This can be in our home, at work, in our local state, or in another country.

But.... that's not who Jesus was talking to in those verses, he was talking to the eleven disciples as the context shows (the ones that he commissioned).  There is no mention of "all Christians" or "all believers" anywhere in those verses.

Even later, we see how individuals were called and commissioned (individually) to be sent out to teach, like Stephen, Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas in Acts 6:1-6, and Paul and Barnabas in Acts 13:1-3, and in each of these cases they were called by revelation and set apart by the laying on of hands and sent out to teach.  If that was already taken care of in Matthew 28:16-20 (as you assert) then why the need to call them to do the same thing again later on?

So on what scriptural precedent do you use to stretch Matthew 28:16–20 to be assumed as going to everyone and not just the people mentioned in the context of the verse?

I'm sorry, but you are really taking the verse out of context.  It's like saying that all believers who read the Bible should be building arks, because God told "us" to build an ark out of gopher wood in Genesis 6:14.

[MiserereNobis]

On 6/27/2023 at 4:58 PM, theplains said:

In the atonement , Christ tears apart the temple veil.  Now we can approach God directly 
through Christ (Hebrews chapters 9 and 10).  We have no need for LDS high priests or high 
priests from any other religious group.

I'd like to point out that the largest Christian 'denomination' , Catholicism and also Orthodoxy disagree with this. A priesthood composed of bishops, priests (and deacons) is necessary.

Just so it's clear to everybody, you are arguing a minority position in Christianity.

[InCognitus]

On 6/27/2023 at 4:58 PM, theplains said:

I believe God has sufficiently revealed truths we need to know to be saved (John 20:30-31).  

I agree that by believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, that we may have life through his name.  The things that are written about the Savior lead us to seek after God, as well as all the other things written in the Bible.  It was by reading the Bible that led Joseph Smith to pray to God for wisdom on how to find out what church he should join, and that of course led to the restoration of the gospel and more revelation from God.

On 6/27/2023 at 4:58 PM, theplains said:

Someone who believes in and worships a false god is not saved, no matter how sincere they 
may be. Some in the exodus out of Egypt learned this the hard way.

What is the difference between "believes in and worships a false god" and believing in the God of the Bible but believes false things about the God of the Bible?

Do you know for certain that everything you believe about God (in your interpretation of the Bible) is an absolutely accurate understanding of God?  If not, then how do you know if you are saved or not?

On 6/27/2023 at 4:58 PM, theplains said:

We need to be careful how we interpret John 13:35 (By this shall all men know that ye are my 
disciples, if ye have love one to another).  I don't think Jesus meant his words for those 
who preach a false Christ and false gospel (2 Corinthians 11:4).

So let’s say that someone follows the teaching of Jesus in the New Testament to the best of their ability and they show godly love one to another, and they care for the poor and needy, feed the hungry (etc.), but they believe that Jesus has two natures (a doctrine that the Got Questions website says isn’t found in the Bible), and they teach other people that Jesus has two natures.  Do they preach a false Christ and a false gospel?    Or what if they teach that Jesus and God the Father are one being (another concept not found in the Bible).  Do they preach of a false Christ and a false gospel?

If not, then who gets to be the judge on who is preaching a false gospel and a false Christ?

On 6/27/2023 at 4:58 PM, theplains said:

It is easy to identify these as false doctrines.  There is no salvation when one places 
their faith in a false god.

There are lots of false doctrines.  One of them is the idea that the Bible is all of God's word and that the canon of scripture is closed (a doctrine not found in the Bible).  

God has many more things to tell us about himself. 

On 6/27/2023 at 4:58 PM, theplains said:

(Moroni 7:22; Mosiah 3:5; 
Doctrine and Covenants 20:17; 39:1; 61:1; 76:4).

All of those scriptures are completely in harmony with all of our teachings, of course.  Thank you for pointing them out.

On 6/27/2023 at 4:58 PM, theplains said:

Joseph Smith taught the Trinity is 3 Gods.

The Bible (and the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants) teaches that Jesus is God and his Father is God, and that God the Father is the God of Jesus Christ, and that God is the God of gods, and that there is "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." (Ephesians 4:6).  It also teaches that Jesus and his Father are "one", and that we are all to be one in the very same way that Jesus and his Father are one (just as the Got Questions website teaches).  So really, that's no surprise and certainly in harmony with the Bible.

On 6/27/2023 at 4:58 PM, theplains said:

I don't fully understand the Trinity but I believe it is  simply explained as 1 God in 
3 co-eternal persons.

And the Bible teaches that the three persons are "one God" in unity (like a husband and wife can be "one", just like the Got Questions website says), and not one being.

On 6/27/2023 at 4:58 PM, theplains said:

I believe some apostasy occurred, but not a total apostasy.  

This is good information, because I was beginning to think you are Catholic.

On 6/27/2023 at 4:58 PM, theplains said:

In the atonement , Christ tears apart the temple veil.  Now we can approach God directly 
through Christ (Hebrews chapters 9 and 10).  We have no need for LDS high priests or high 
priests from any other religious group.

Christ made it possible for anyone who qualifies to be "kings and priests unto God", so that we can all enter through the veil into the holy of holies. 

On 6/27/2023 at 4:58 PM, theplains said:

Apart from the elders in each church that watch over the flock, the remainder of the 
males and females join them in key roles.  Christian women therefore are members of 
a royal priesthood, a holy nation, and a peculiar people.

1 Peter 2:5 - Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, 
to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:9 - But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a 
peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out 
of darkness into his marvellous light.

I already responded to this (here).  I'll re-post some of what I said. 

These verses are not talking about an assumed priesthood of all believers, because Peter is quoting from Exodus 19:5-6 of the Septuagint:  

"And now if ye will indeed hear my voice, and keep my covenant, ye shall be to me a peculiar people above all nations; for the whole earth is mine. And ye shall be to me a royal priesthood and a holy nation: these words shalt thou speak to the children of Israel."  (LXX, Exodus 19:5-6)

So when Peter says in 1 Peter 2:5-10 that "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ", and "ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:  Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God", he's not saying that "all believers" assume that priesthood simply by believing anymore than he was saying that of the priesthood held by Israel.  And at the time of Exodus 19, the Levitical priesthood didn't even exist yet, but there were priests of God (i.e. Exo 2:16-3:1, 18:10-12, Exo 19:22-24). 

Was it an assumed priesthood of all believers, male and female, in ancient Israel prior to them breaking the covenant?  If not then, then it isn't now, because Peter was quoting the same thing that was said to ancient Israel.

On 6/27/2023 at 4:58 PM, theplains said:

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Why don't you need apostles to lead you? Is it really out of need, or is it desire?

Before I can answer you, what are the qualifications of an apostle?

The qualifications for an apostle are irrelevant to my question.  Why don't you need apostles to lead you?   Is it really out of need, or desire?  

You don't think anyone today could benefit from having living apostles and prophets to teach what Christ intended his church to teach?

On 6/27/2023 at 4:58 PM, theplains said:

Even 
with all the apostasy during Old Testament times, God still had a remnant of faithful 
believers.

Yes, because of revelation to his prophets.

On 6/27/2023 at 4:58 PM, theplains said:

We find "every wind of doctrine" even among the various LDS sects.

And, we found "every wind of doctrine" and break off groups in New Testament times, but the living apostles were there to correct and prevent errant doctrines from entering into Christ's church, just like it happens in the restored church today.  The living apostles and prophets were there, and are here today, "till we all come to a unity of the faith" and to help keep the church pure.

On 6/27/2023 at 4:58 PM, theplains said:

You focus too much on the church of Christ having a very rigid organizational structure.  

That's because the Bible says it had a rigid organization structure:

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive"  (Ephesians 4:11–14)

Without that organization structure it's not really the same as Christ's church.

On 6/27/2023 at 4:58 PM, theplains said:

The church of Christ is spiritual in nature.

"For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee" (Titus 1:5)  That sounds more like an "order" that Jesus set up in his church, and not just spiritual in nature.

On 6/27/2023 at 4:58 PM, theplains said:

In the beginning of the LDS church, Jesus did not even pick the 12.  He assigned three 
persons  (Doctrine and Covenants 18:37-39) to search out twelve others.

That's no different than how it was done in New Testament times after the resurrection of ascension of Jesus (Acts 6:1-6, Acts 13:1-3, Acts 14:23)

[telnetd]

On 6/28/2023 at 3:01 PM, InCognitus said:

But.... that's not who Jesus was talking to in those verses, he was talking to the eleven disciples as the context shows (the ones that he commissioned).  There is no mention of "all Christians" or "all believers" anywhere in those verses.

Ok, so according to your logic only 11 in Israel were commissioned to go and preach the gospel and
to baptize. In the Book of Mormon only 12 males were authorized to baptize (3 Nephi 12:1) and this
number supposedly never went past 12 - unless you believe they commissioned other men to baptize.

This is what I believe occurred in the New Testament church as Jesus continued to build it. The great
commission is open to all available believers.

But I see a limitation in the LDS church. Women, in 2019, were finally allowed to be witnesses in baptisms
and sealings.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/women-can-serve-as-witnesses-for-baptisms-temple-sealings-first-presidency-announces?lang=eng

Maybe we end this thread as we are playing ping-pong.  I believe men and women are commissioned
to preach the gospel and to baptize whereas you do not.  For centuries we have baptized people and
we have witnessed baptisms.

[InCognitus]

1 minute ago, telnetd said:

Ok, so according to your logic only 11 in Israel were commissioned to go and preach the gospel and
to baptize.

No, according to the context (not my "logic") only the eleven were commissioned to go and preach the gospel and to baptize in those specific verses.  Later we find that others were commissioned, such as when Stephen, Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas were called and set apart (Acts 6:1-6) and when Paul and Barnabas were called as apostles and sent out in Acts 13:1-3.  They were called by God and set apart and sent out by revelation, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12:28, "God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers".  Clearly this is not some assumed priesthood of all believers, but it is done in "order" by appointment from those in authority, as Paul says to Titus: "thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee" (Titus 1:5)

The bigger question is how, according to your logic, that those verses are made to apply to every Christian that believes, which is contrary to the context and the rest of scripture?

14 minutes ago, telnetd said:

In the Book of Mormon only 12 males were authorized to baptize (3 Nephi 12:1) and this
number supposedly never went past 12 - unless you believe they commissioned other men to baptize.

They commissioned other men to baptize, but it wasn't assumed among all the members, it was done "in order" just as was done in the New Testament church as described above.   Moroni chapter 3 of the Book of Mormon explains how it was done, as it lays out "The manner which the disciples, who were called the elders of the church, ordained priests and teachers" (Moroni 3:1).

14 minutes ago, telnetd said:

This is what I believe occurred in the New Testament church as Jesus continued to build it. The great
commission is open to all available believers.

I realize you believe this, but that's not what those verses are saying according to the context and from other verses in the New Testament.

14 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Maybe we end this thread as we are playing ping-pong.  I believe men and women are commissioned
to preach the gospel and to baptize whereas you do not.

I also believe men and women are commissioned to preach the gospel, but it is not an "assumed" calling, it is a call by revelation from the prophet and apostles, or by local authorities depending on the calling.  The Bible shows this pattern, and nowhere do we find this to be something that all believers claim for themselves.

[UncleanDeacon]

The Maxwell Institute has dismantled the apostasy, the Church Christ set up, and the restoring of the ancient church with its recent book Ancient Christians

Thomas Wayment dismantled the KJV and the Joseph Smith Translation with his recent interview on Gospel Tangents and Rick Bennett

The LDS Church has dismantled much of Mormonism over the last decade

Things are a changing

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, UncleanDeacon said:

The Maxwell Institute has dismantled the apostasy, the Church Christ set up, and the restoring of the ancient church with its recent book Ancient Christians

Not really.  Having better insights into Christian history is not the same thing as having "dismantled the apostasy".

2 hours ago, UncleanDeacon said:

Thomas Wayment dismantled the KJV and the Joseph Smith Translation with his recent interview on Gospel Tangents and Rick Bennett

What Wayment brings to the table on the Joseph Smith Translation is nothing new.  And his theory about the association of the Adam Clark Commentary is really not tenable See:  Some Notes on Joseph Smith and Adam Clarke, by Kent P. Jackson:

Quote

Abstract: Authors of two recent articles believe they have found evidence that Joseph Smith, in preparing his revision of the Bible, drew ideas from a contemporary Bible commentary by British scholar Adam Clarke. The evidence, however, does not bear out this claim. I believe that none of the examples they provide can be traced to Clarke’s commentary, and almost all of them can be explained easily by other means. The authors do not look at their examples within the broader context of the revisions Joseph Smith made to the Bible, and thus they misinterpret them. Some of the revisions they attribute to Clarke are ones that Joseph Smith had made repeatedly before he arrived at the passages where they believe he got ideas from Clarke. In addition, there is a mountain of material in Clarke that is not reflected in the Joseph Smith Translation, and there is a mountain of material in the Joseph Smith Translation that cannot be explained by reference to Clarke. The few overlaps that do exist are vague, superficial, and coincidental.

See past threads on that topic:  Adam Clarke Bible Commentary Influence in the Book of Mormon?

2 hours ago, UncleanDeacon said:

The LDS Church has dismantled much of Mormonism over the last decade

Really?  Like what? 

(And PLEASE don't say, "Like President Nelson asking us to use the real name of the church instead of 'Mormon'", or that we are trying to make ourselves no different than other Christians.)

2 hours ago, UncleanDeacon said:

Things are a changing

Change is inevitable, otherwise we'd be dead.

Edited June 30, 2023 by InCognitus

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Change is inevitable, otherwise we'd be dead.

And a poor example of what we believe given our doctrine of continuing revelation and eternal progression.

[MiserereNobis]

5 hours ago, UncleanDeacon said:

Things are a changing

Please don’t misquote Nobel Prize for Literature winning author Robert Zimmerman. 

[3DOP]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Please don’t misquote Nobel Prize for Literature winning author Robert Zimmerman. 

Yup. Times change. Things? Well...it takes a priest. But who that is not Catholic believes in things, real things, that change into different things, even with a priest?

Good to see you Jesse. Maybe we can talk one of these days. I think I am still journeying.

[MiserereNobis]

30 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Yup. Times change. Things? Well...it takes a priest. But who that is not Catholic believes in things, real things, that change into different things, even with a priest?

Good to see you Jesse. Maybe we can talk one of these days. I think I am still journeying.

As we all are journeying. Always good to see you, too, Rory. Two trads on a Mormon board. 

[theplains]

On 6/29/2023 at 2:09 PM, MiserereNobis said:

I'd like to point out that the largest Christian 'denomination' , Catholicism and also Orthodoxy disagree with this. A priesthood composed of bishops, priests (and deacons) is necessary.

I used to be a Roman Catholic so I know their structure.  Apart from Jesus Christ, there is no other
high priest.

[theplains]

On 6/29/2023 at 9:49 PM, InCognitus said:

 It was by reading the Bible that led Joseph Smith to pray to God for wisdom on how to find out what church he should join, and that of course led to the restoration of the gospel and more revelation from God.

I am aware of that. The personage who visited him said, “all their creeds were an abomination 
in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt".

 

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What is the difference between "believes in and worships a false god" and believing in the 
God of the Bible but believes false things about the God of the Bible?

One false teaching about the God is that he (Heavenly Father) was a man who became a God 
on some other world. Another false teaching about God (Jesus the Son) is that he was the 
first spirit child of heavenly parents who became a God in his pre-mortal life.

Even Mormon scriptures oppose such false teachings (Moroni 7:22; Mosiah 3:5; Doctrine and 
Covenants 20:17; 39:1; 61:1; 76:4). The idea of the Holy Spirit also being a spirit child of
heavenly parents is also false.  God is God from all eternity to all eternity.

Joseph Smith’s god is someone entirely different ("In order to understand the subject of the
dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we
should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going 
to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from
all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see").
 

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Do you know for certain that everything you believe about God (in your interpretation of 
the Bible) is an absolutely accurate understanding of God?  If not, then how do you know 
if you are saved or not?

God has revealed all we need to know in the Bible in order to be saved.
 

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So let’s say that someone follows the teaching of Jesus in the New Testament to the best 
of their ability and they show godly love one to another, and they care for the poor and 
needy, feed the hungry (etc.), but they believe that Jesus has two natures (a doctrine 
that the Got Questions website says isn’t found in the Bible), and they teach other people 
that Jesus has two natures.  Do they preach a false Christ and a false gospel?    Or what 
if they teach that Jesus and God the Father are one being (another concept not found in 
the Bible).  Do they preach of a false Christ and a false gospel?

 Here’s one example. Jehovah’s Witnesses are sincere. They care for the poor and needy, and 
they feed the hungry. But they have a false Christ (an archangel who became a man). Their 
false gospel is that only 144,000 are members of the church; the bride of Christ.

 

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If not, then who gets to be the judge on who is preaching a false gospel and a false Christ?

The Apostle Paul had no problem doing that.
 

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The Bible (and the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants) teaches that Jesus is God and 
his Father is God, and that God the Father is the God of Jesus Christ, and that God is the 
God of gods, and that there is "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, 
and in you all." (Ephesians 4:6)

The Bible makes several reference to gods (which are not deities). Some examples are Exodus 
7:1, Psalm 82:1-7, and 2 Corinthians 4:4
 

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Christ made it possible for anyone who qualifies to be "kings and priests unto God", so that 
we can all enter through the veil into the holy of holies. 

These kings and priests (including women) come forth in the first resurrection. The second 
death has no power over them (Revelation 20:6,14).  They have only one high priest with whom 
to deal with (Jesus Christ) before and after their resurrection.  They don’t need the high 
priests of the LDS church.
 

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Was it an assumed priesthood of all believers, male and female, in ancient Israel prior to 
them breaking the covenant?  If not then, then it isn't now, because Peter was quoting the 
same thing that was said to ancient Israel.

I would say that while women did not officially serve in the temple in an ordained fashion, 
they were still classified as priests offering up spiritual sacrifices. Several named women 
in the Old Testament possessed the role of prophet (Miriam – Exodus 15:20), Deborah – Judges 
4:4,  Huldah - 2 Kings 22:14, 2 Chronicles 34:22). Acts 21:9 shows a New Testament account 
of four virgin daughters which prophesied.

Acts 2:17 does reveal the existence of other female prophets. (“And it shall come to pass in
the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your
daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall 
dream dreams”).
 

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The qualifications for an apostle are irrelevant to my question.  Why don't you need apostles 
to lead you?   Is it really out of need, or desire?  
You don't think anyone today could benefit from having living apostles and prophets to teach 
what Christ intended his church to teach?

Let’s discuss this in the other thread.
 

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The living apostles and prophets were there, and are here today, "till we all come to a unity of the faith" and to help keep the church pure.

Teaching and worshipping a man who supposedly became the Heavenly Father of our earth, 
while keeping Mormons in a unity of faith, is not keeping the church pure.
 

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That's because the Bible says it had a rigid organization structure:
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;  
Without that organization structure it's not really the same as Christ's church.

Was the Nephite church the same as Christ’s church when it did not have apostles?
 

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That's no different than how it was done in New Testament times after the resurrection of ascension of Jesus (Acts 6:1-6, Acts 13:1-3, Acts 14:23)

In the New Testament, Jesus picked the 12.  In the LDS church, Jesus supposedly picked 3. 
These 3 found 12 others, for a total of 15 apostles.

Oddly enough, the Book of Mormon teaches that the multitudes of the earth, in the future, 
would be fighting against the twelve apostles of the Lamb, not fifteen (1 Nephi 11:34-36).

[InCognitus]

On 7/3/2023 at 11:57 AM, theplains said:

God has revealed all we need to know in the Bible in order to be saved.

This doesn't answer my question, and my question is directly connected to your assertion that if someone believes in and worships a false god then they are not saved.

We both believe in the God of the Bible.  You believe your version is correct, I believe the Latter-day Saint understanding of God is correct and completely in harmony with the Bible (and just to remind you, we've discussed our belief that God is eternal and the meaning of "everlasting to everlasting" previously, here 07/09/2022, here 07/25/2022, here 08/10/2022, here 10/30/2022, here 11/12/2022, here 11/16/2022, here 11/21/2022, here 11/27/2022, here 12/24/2022, and probably several other places, so no use in bringing that up again)). 

So you have your belief and I have my belief, and we both claim to be following the God of the Bible.  But you may (or may not) believe some things about God that aren't accurate, and I may (or may not) believe some things about God that aren't accurate, because neither of us have a complete understanding of God. 

What is it that puts a person over the edge of believing in a false god, to where they are not saved?  

Many modern Christians today believe things about God that aren't taught in the Bible (like Jesus having two natures, or Jesus and the Father are one being).  Does believing those things make it so they believe in a false god, and aren't saved?   Or how would one know?  And if we compare my beliefs and your beliefs to the Bible, you will say your interpretation is right and I will say my interpretation is right (and I would say that Latter-day Saint beliefs are more in harmony with all the Bible than other Christian faiths).  So where does that get us?

On 7/3/2023 at 11:57 AM, theplains said:

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If not, then who gets to be the judge on who is preaching a false gospel and a false Christ?

The Apostle Paul had no problem doing that.

Now you see why it's so important to have living apostles and prophets.  Christ set up his church to be governed by his appointed leaders.

On 7/3/2023 at 11:57 AM, theplains said:

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The Bible (and the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants) teaches that Jesus is God and 
his Father is God, and that God the Father is the God of Jesus Christ, and that God is the 
God of gods, and that there is "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, 
and in you all." (Ephesians 4:6)

The Bible makes several reference to gods (which are not deities). Some examples are Exodus 
7:1, Psalm 82:1-7, and 2 Corinthians 4:4

What are you suggesting, that God is the King of actual kings, but he is the God of false gods or devils?

On 7/3/2023 at 11:57 AM, theplains said:

I would say that while women did not officially serve in the temple in an ordained fashion, 
they were still classified as priests offering up spiritual sacrifices. Several named women 
in the Old Testament possessed the role of prophet (Miriam – Exodus 15:20), Deborah – Judges 
4:4,  Huldah - 2 Kings 22:14, 2 Chronicles 34:22). Acts 21:9 shows a New Testament account 
of four virgin daughters which prophesied.

Acts 2:17 does reveal the existence of other female prophets. (“And it shall come to pass in
the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your
daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall 
dream dreams”).

Who said females can't have the gift of prophecy?  (Not me or the church).  Having the gift of prophecy isn't the same as having the office of prophet in the church however ("God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets" - 1 Corinthians 12:28), even though someone who has the gift of prophecy may be referred to as a prophet or prophetess.  But a prophet need not prophesy to be called a prophet (like Abraham).

And none of that has anything to do with whether they held the priesthood.  Did ancient Israel have a priesthood of all believers, or not?  

On 7/3/2023 at 11:57 AM, theplains said:

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The qualifications for an apostle are irrelevant to my question.  Why don't you need apostles 
to lead you?   Is it really out of need, or desire?  
You don't think anyone today could benefit from having living apostles and prophets to teach 
what Christ intended his church to teach?

Let’s discuss this in the other thread.

Whether or not you need apostles today is completely relevant to this thread.  Based on what you said above about Paul calling out a false gospel or false Christ, it seems you do understand why living apostles are necessary.  Do you think you can figure out who is teaching a false gospel or false Christ all on your own today?  Or does it come down to a disagreement between the two of us over interpretations of scripture?

On 7/3/2023 at 11:57 AM, theplains said:

Was the Nephite church the same as Christ’s church when it did not have apostles?

When Christ organized his church in the New World, he called and appointed twelve disciples, which was the extension of Christ's church in the Americas.  This was also during the period when the church in the Old World had twelve living apostles to lead the church.  It was Christ's church and the way he organized it in both places.

On 7/3/2023 at 11:57 AM, theplains said:

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That's no different than how it was done in New Testament times after the resurrection of ascension of Jesus (Acts 6:1-6, Acts 13:1-3, Acts 14:23)

In the New Testament, Jesus picked the 12.  In the LDS church, Jesus supposedly picked 3. 

You are just repeating yourself and you totally ignored my response as to how that process worked in the New Testament.  Jesus was there personally during his mortal ministry when he picked the original twelve.  But here’s the part that you missed from what I said above:  After the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, he directed his church through the divinely appointed leaders.  And when new apostles needed to be chosen, or other teachers, it was done by revelation, just like it shows in Acts 6:1-6, Acts 13:1-3, Acts 14:23.  So when Jesus restored his church, he personally picked his prophet and two others, and they called others by revelation in exactly the same way the church was governed in the New Testament after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus.  It is done in exactly the same way.

On 7/3/2023 at 11:57 AM, theplains said:

These 3 found 12 others, for a total of 15 apostles.

How many apostles were there in the New Testament after Paul replaced James, and then when Barnabas, Andronicus, and Junia were added as apostles?

[telnetd]

On 6/30/2023 at 1:00 PM, InCognitus said:

I also believe men and women are commissioned to preach the gospel, but it is not an "assumed" calling, it is a call by revelation from the prophet and apostles, or by local authorities depending on the calling.  The Bible shows this pattern, and nowhere do we find this to be something that all believers claim for themselves.

I found a few articles detailing how some disagree or agree on whether women can baptize or not.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevin-deyoung/who-can-baptize/
https://versebyverseministry.org/bible-answers/can-a-woman-baptize-a-man
https://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/cms/can-a-woman-baptize-someone/
https://johnmarkhicks.com/2021/03/11/on-women-baptizing-and-teaching-in-light-of-the-great-commission/
 

[InCognitus]

4 hours ago, telnetd said:

I found a few articles detailing how some disagree or agree on whether women can baptize or not.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevin-deyoung/who-can-baptize/
https://versebyverseministry.org/bible-answers/can-a-woman-baptize-a-man
https://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/cms/can-a-woman-baptize-someone/
https://johnmarkhicks.com/2021/03/11/on-women-baptizing-and-teaching-in-light-of-the-great-commission/
 

That shows the varying opinions that people have about how to interpret the Bible.  Wouldn't it be good to have living apostles and modern revelation to address those questions?

[mfbukowski]

On 6/27/2023 at 3:58 PM, theplains said:

I don't fully understand the Trinity but I believe it is  simply explained as 1 God in 
3 co-eternal persons.  

One US "Congress" made up of a council of.... (lotsa people, and even two "houses" of people) ?

Yet as a "Council of Gods" meaning perfect unity of thought?

I view "God" as a collective noun, like "family " or "team" or "The Dodgers", unified by purpose.

One group, unified as one, theoretically at least.

That's why "Godhead" is a much better word.

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, telnetd said:

 

Error. Responded to wrong post

Edited July 5, 2023 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

On 6/30/2023 at 4:00 PM, MiserereNobis said:

Please don’t misquote Nobel Prize for Literature winning author Robert Zimmerman. 

Clearly the greatest prophet ever.

Wow! My phone just shocked me! 😳