One in 4 US Mormons has thought about leaving the LDS Church, study shows

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Come to Meeheeco!

Side note, my son in law's mother just got a visa to come to the USA for the first time! He hasn't seen his mother in twenty or so years. What a great reunion it was and I get to meet her soon at my grandson's high school graduation. 

[Tacenda]

Some might put Bill Reel or DBMormon up their with John Dehlin. Just came across this video with an LDS apologist. 

 

[Hamilton Porter]

22 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Why do you attend a language branch, not sure what that even is. First thought it might be because you may have served your mission in another language and you like to keep it fresh in your mind.

There are a lot of strong members where I live. My services go much farther in a small language branch.

When the branch started, a former Congressman from Arizona was the branch president, and he came to my living room to talk me into it.

[Navidad]

45 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Why do you attend a language branch, not sure what that even is. First thought it might be because you may have served your mission in another language and you like to keep it fresh in your mind.

There are language branches here in the colonies. Spanish and English. I am uncertain it is a good idea, but no one has asked our opinion! It seems to me to be a dividing mechanism that will further cement Anglo and Mestizo LDS differences here.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Side note, my son in law's mother just got a visa to come to the USA for the first time! He hasn't seen his mother in twenty or so years. What a great reunion it was and I get to meet her soon at my grandson's high school graduation. 

That is wonderful news.

[Rain]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Side note, my son in law's mother just got a visa to come to the USA for the first time! He hasn't seen his mother in twenty or so years. What a great reunion it was and I get to meet her soon at my grandson's high school graduation. 

I just saw a video of a son and father seeing each other after 19 years.  There were some critical comments comments about it going long and I just thought about all the people I have heard about where it did go that long and people not having a lot of choice in the matter because of so many reasons.  I'm glad they can see each other again!

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, Rain said:

I just saw a video of a son and father seeing each other after 19 years.  There were some critical comments comments about it going long and I just thought about all the people I have heard about where it did go that long and people not having a lot of choice in the matter because of so many reasons.  I'm glad they can see each other again!

 

2 hours ago, Calm said:

That is wonderful news.

Thanks you two! I told my daughter to video it, so soon I will get to see that precious moment that I didn't know could happen.

[Damien the Leper]

My grandfather served in the Korean War. Growing up, he often spoke of the moral decay of the emerging Boomer Era. Many likeminded as he considered the growing entitlement, gluttony and sociopathic tendencies that would inspire adding "under God" (14 June 1954) to the PoA and "In God We Trust" (22 April 1964) to U.S. currency to be crucial points of deviation from social and national greatness. He also pointed to the lie that America was trying to be a nation submissive to God and to bring about the desolate and destitute "Judeo-Christian Values" that have essentially become the brand of hate that is espoused today. This country is not a beacon of hope, liberty, justice, faith or freedom. The ungodliness that pervades this country has been planted and grown from inception. God was not with the earliest of imperialists such as George Washington who championed the genocide of Native Americans to current Christian Nationalist citizens and all extremists seeking to curb stomp their own adversaries. Perhaps the greatest mercy God could provide is to wipe the U.S. and its inborn sin from the face of the earth. 

[Tacenda]

On 5/30/2023 at 12:37 PM, Damien the Leper said:

My grandfather served in the Korean War. Growing up, he often spoke of the moral decay of the emerging Boomer Era. Many likeminded as he considered the growing entitlement, gluttony and sociopathic tendencies that would inspire adding "under God" (14 June 1954) to the PoA and "In God We Trust" (22 April 1964) to U.S. currency to be crucial points of deviation from social and national greatness. He also pointed to the lie that America was trying to be a nation submissive to God and to bring about the desolate and destitute "Judeo-Christian Values" that have essentially become the brand of hate that is espoused today. This country is not a beacon of hope, liberty, justice, faith or freedom. The ungodliness that pervades this country has been planted and grown from inception. God was not with the earliest of imperialists such as George Washington who championed the genocide of Native Americans to current Christian Nationalist citizens and all extremists seeking to curb stomp their own adversaries. Perhaps the greatest mercy God could provide is to wipe the U.S. and its inborn sin from the face of the earth. 

Or just not repeat it, but yes the beginnings of this country was began on the backs of the Native Americans for sure. Or I should reword it to say their lives were sacrificed for the white man. Yep I said it.

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Or just not repeat it, but yes the beginnings of this country was began on the backs of the Native Americans for sure. Or I should reword it to say their lives were sacrificed for the white man. Yep I said it.

I think someone else said it best when they said that what happened to the Native Americans in this country was inevitable.  But how it happened was unconscionable.  

[rodheadlee]

On 5/26/2023 at 3:02 PM, Teancum said:

So the fact that many are Gen Z makes this any less of an issue for the church exactly how?

They have more time to grow and learn. Perhaps they will return?

Just a thought. 

[rodheadlee]

On 5/27/2023 at 7:05 AM, Navidad said:

You really sum it up from an LDS viewpoint! Wow! If I don't care to join the LDS church because I would have to repudiate my prior testimony, faith, and witness, then I "just don't want" eternal life with the Father and Son. Oh, and I will end up "serving the righteous that remained". Oh, and that means "everything turns out in the end." Again, I say "wow!"

I guess all of my personal faith, trust, and relationship in and with Christ, lo these umpty-ump (not empty-ump) years has been for nothing because it hasn't been in "the church." Its been "in Christ." You have the Moroni test . . . I have the Christ test; oh and the Holy Spirit test, and the peace, goodness, and mercy test too. I am just shaking my head at your message 🙃 as you might shake your head at mine.

I guess I am happy for you for your absolute certainty. Please be happy for me for my absolute trust and faith and the peace that brings in the presence of provisional certainty. Faith and trust don't seem to me to be companions with certainty, but competitors. That may not make any sense to you, but it sure does to me. Oh, and as long as I am in the constant presence of Christ and the Father for eternity, I will happily wash your feet every day! Take care!

He is basically summing up D&C 132. What you are missing though is none of us are the judges. Christ is our judge or Heavenly Father through Christ. The important thing is only they know who knew what and when they knew it and what they did with that knowledge, and what they would  have  done if they had that knowledge. By know I mean have a witness of the holy spirit that certain things are true.

 

[Navidad]

9 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

He is basically summing up D&C 132. What you are missing though is none of us are the judges. Christ is our judge or Heavenly Father through Christ. The important thing is only they know who knew what and when they knew it and what they did with that knowledge, and what they would  have  done if they had that knowledge. By know I mean have a witness of the holy spirit that certain things are true.

 

I am more than happy to have Christ be my judge - knowing all that I know about Him. I agree wholeheartedly with you that none of us are the judges. However, when people write things like I quoted in my post, it certainly seems as if I am being judged. What I think is missing is that people who say things like that don't realize that they are indeed judging and perhaps even coming very close to mocking the complementary beliefs of others. Thanks for taking the time to respond to my response. Best wishes. 

[Stormin' Mormon]

14 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think someone else said it best when they said that what happened to the Native Americans in this country was inevitable.  But how it happened was unconscionable.  

That quote appears to come from a 1995 movie called "Last of the Dogmen," starring Tom Berenger and Barbara Hershey.  The line was said by Hershey's character, Dr. Lillian Sloan. 

I could be wrong, and the quote could predate the movie, but this was the Google result that matched the quote most precisely.  

I'm not trying to make any kind of point by providing this info.  I just liked the quote, and was curious about its origin.  Once I found it, I thought I'd share it here.   

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

That quote appears to come from a 1995 movie called "Last of the Dogmen," starring Tom Berenger and Barbara Hershey.  The line was said by Hershey's character, Dr. Lillian Sloan. 

I could be wrong, and the quote could predate the movie, but this was the Google result that matched the quote most precisely.  

I'm not trying to make any kind of point by providing this info.  I just liked the quote, and was curious about its origin.  Once I found it, I thought I'd share it here.   

Nope, that’s exactly where I heard it. I just didn’t want to take credit for it but also didn’t want to take the time to explain where it came from. 😁

For the record, it’s an excellent movie. 

Edited June 1, 2023 by bluebell

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

I am more than happy to have Christ be my judge - knowing all that I know about Him. I agree wholeheartedly with you that none of us are the judges. However, when people write things like I quoted in my post, it certainly seems as if I am being judged. What I think is missing is that people who say things like that don't realize that they are indeed judging and perhaps even coming very close to mocking the complementary beliefs of others. Thanks for taking the time to respond to my response. Best wishes. 

I've seen a post or two about it being okay to be righteous judges, but I'm not game for it.

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I've seen a post or two about it being okay to be righteous judges, but I'm not game for it.

You don't ever make judgments in your day to day life?  How do you decide what is good to include in your life, what to support, what to reject, and what will be harmful to you and/or others, without being a judge in your life?

[Tacenda]

28 minutes ago, bluebell said:

You don't ever make judgments in your day to day life?  How do you decide what is good to include in your life, what to support, what to reject, and what will be harmful to you and/or others, without being a judge in your life?

Yeah, I thought of that after posting, and am tending my granddaughter, and didn't add to it. I was thinking of justifying judging others when we don't know the full story and only the Lord does.

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Yeah, I thought of that after posting, and am tending my granddaughter, and didn't add to it. I was thinking of justifying judging others when we don't know the full story and only the Lord does.

We all have to judge others.  It's a necessity of life.  You have to judge others to keep your granddaughter safe, for example.  But we don't have to condemn others when we are trying to judge righteously, and for me, that's the important distinction.

 

Edited June 1, 2023 by bluebell

[Tacenda]

30 minutes ago, bluebell said:

We all have to judge others.  It's a necessity of life.  You have to judge others to keep your granddaughter safe, for example.  But we don't have to condemn others when we are trying to judge righteously, and for me, that's the important distinction.

 

Yes, totally agree! Was thinking when youth or ? go to their bishops thinking they've sinned and when the bishop makes them not partake of the sacrament. For instance some guy (married man with family, true story) who watched porn and now feels great shame and it only exacerbates the problem when their bishop punishes them, situations like that.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

31 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Yes, totally agree! Was thinking when youth or ? go to their bishops thinking they've sinned and when the bishop makes them not partake of the sacrament. For instance some guy (married man with family, true story) who watched porn and now feels great shame and it only exacerbates the problem when their bishop punishes them, situations like that.

I'm glad that things are changing in regards to restricting someone from taking the sacrament.  It was not unusual for this to be the first restriction placed on someone for any kind of sexual sin, including masturbation.  I'm glad the Handbook of Instruction now says this:

Partaking of the sacrament is an important part of repentance. It should not be the first restriction given to a repentant person who has a broken heart and contrite spirit. However, if a person has committed serious sins, a leader may suspend this privilege for a time.

[Meadowchik]

On 5/27/2023 at 3:26 AM, bluebell said:

Yep. Just look at the suicide rate. I wouldn’t be surprised if pretty soon 1 in 4 people think they are transgender.  

This comment is super troubling.

On 5/27/2023 at 3:26 AM, bluebell said:

Society is a mess. 

Trans people are not a symptom of a mess, the fact they can exist to some degree living life is a sign of progress. 

The fact that some people who aren't trans may consider the fact that they are and even try living life that way is also a sign of progress.

It is what we can expect from society breaking up rigid gender constructs. It is an indirect consequence of women having their personhood more fully recognized in law, instead of half of human society being treated as property or as accessories of men.

People complain and fret about trans rights but imo a lot of that is based on fear. 

If you're not trans, perhaps the most difficult thing about it would be as a parent of a trans person, trying to help your child in a world that on a high level keeps getting more hostile towards them.  Maybe that's a big reason for the hostility and cynicism about trans people. Maybe parents are afraid they'll have a child who is trans or who thinks they are, and they don't know how to respond to that.

I was just listening to another LDS mom the other day tell me about her journey as a parent of a trans person. How she was scared it would be terribly hard. I asked her if it was. And then she told me how she processed it and it actually wasn't so difficult as she thought, the transition in their identity itself. The hardest part was deep concern over how they're treated by Mormons in Utah and by the church. So far, the experience on the local level has been very good. The high level, of course not.

LDS have tools to respond to the changes in the world, we've been learning and teaching them since we were little. We are each of infinite worth. We are to love one another. We will figure out the tricky things in life if we remember this. As individuals and parents.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Meadowchik

[Tacenda]

I think that there's a possibility that many of us could be trans, gay, or queer. I guess if we've never explored or even had the idea of it being possible, could it occur to us? This is why I think there's an explosion of gays or trans or bisexuals. It's because as children most of the generations out there took on what we were shown was our designated sex and how to proceed from there, but if given a choice I wonder. Exceptions being for those that are flaming gays or trans. Or to the core, the very core where they know it since early childhood could be the exceptions. 

[Rain]

4 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

This comment is super troubling.

Trans people are not a symptom of a mess, the fact they can exist to some degree living life is a sign of progress. 

I agree to some extent, but also I think that the encouragement of massive physical changes many are going through (especially when I find that most of those I personally know and hear about are on the autism spectrum) and also what it means to the spaces women occupy is not a sign of progress. It is a sign of not taking care of vulnerable people and doing them harm.

4 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

The fact that some people who aren't trans may consider the fact that they are and even try living life that way is also a sign of progress.

It is what we can expect from society breaking up rigid gender constructs. It is an indirect consequence of women having their personhood more fully recognized in law, instead of half of human society being treated as property or as accessories of men.

People complain and fret about trans rights but imo a lot of that is based on fear. 

If you're not trans, perhaps the most difficult thing about it would be as a parent of a trans person, trying to help your child in a world that on a high level keeps getting more hostile towards them.  Maybe that's a big reason for the hostility and cynicism about trans people. Maybe parents are afraid they'll have a child who is trans or who thinks they are, and they don't know how to respond to that.

I was just listening to another LDS mom the other day tell me about her journey as a parent of a trans person. How she was scared it would be terribly hard. I asked her if it was. And then she told me how she processed it and it actually wasn't so difficult as she thought, the transition in their identity itself. The hardest part was deep concern over how they're treated by Mormons in Utah and by the church. So far, the experience on the local level has been very good. The high level, of course not.

LDS have tools to respond to the changes in the world, we've been learning and teaching them since we were little. We are each of infinite worth. We are to love one another. We will figure out the tricky things in life if we remember this. As individuals and parents.

 

Edited June 3, 2023 by Rain

[bluebell]

5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

This comment is super troubling.

Is it troubling because you disagree, or troubling for some other reason?  I'm not sure what you are saying.

Quote

Trans people are not a symptom of a mess, the fact they can exist to some degree living life is a sign of progress. 

I agree.  I don't think society is a mess because trans people exist.  I think that it's a mess for a lot of reasons, one being how some of the ideology around transgenderism and peer pressure is affecting people's (especially kids) views of gender and health care choices.

Quote

The fact that some people who aren't trans may consider the fact that they are and even try living life that way is also a sign of progress.

Unless they do things that physically can't be undone.  Especially when it comes to children. That's a sign of society-caused trauma.

Here is an article written by a liberal woman who supports transgender people (it sounds like she's in the UK) explaining her concerns, which match the concerns of most of the people that I've talked about this, including my own. 

These concerns are not based on fear.  Labeling them that way comes across as an easy way for some to dismiss valid concerns that they don't want to deal with.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/thought-liberal-mother-then-daughter-170000717.html