Archaeologists discover a lost world of 417 ancient Mayans cities buried in remote jungle, connected by miles of 'superhighways"

[carbon dioxide]

Scientists in Guatemala have discovered "the first freeway system in the world," The Washington Post reports.

In an interview with the Post, researchers from a joint US-Guatemalan archaeological study published in the Cambridge University Press in December said they had uncovered 417 cities dating back roughly 3,000 years, interconnected by 110 miles of "superhighways."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/archaeologists-discover-lost-world-417-112600870.html

This is just more evidence that we really do not know anything about the ancient world the Americas.    So when Book of Mormon critics say that since we have found no evidence of ancient horse bones from Book of Mormon times, the Book of Mormon is wrong is just laughable.  If people have consistently missed big stuff like cities existing, why should be so sure they have not missed a lot of little things.  If you can't see big cities, you definitely can't see small horse bones and other things that may be around. 

[Pyreaux]

Why such large highways? Critics say these people never invented the wheel.

[Hamilton Porter]

People who claim anachronisms disprove the BOM are like young earth creationists who say evolution didn't happen because we're missing transitional fossils.

[Navidad]

19 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Scientists in Guatemala have discovered "the first freeway system in the world," The Washington Post reports.

In an interview with the Post, researchers from a joint US-Guatemalan archaeological study published in the Cambridge University Press in December said they had uncovered 417 cities dating back roughly 3,000 years, interconnected by 110 miles of "superhighways."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/archaeologists-discover-lost-world-417-112600870.html

This is just more evidence that we really do not know anything about the ancient world the Americas.    So when Book of Mormon critics say that since we have found no evidence of ancient horse bones from Book of Mormon times, the Book of Mormon is wrong is just laughable.  If people have consistently missed big stuff like cities existing, why should be so sure they have not missed a lot of little things.  If you can't see big cities, you definitely can't see small horse bones and other things that may be around. 

I will be attending a conference about this in a few weeks with some of those who actually are involved in Mayan studies. I am interested to see what exactly that is new is in this report. I will fill you in on what I find out directly from the scientists unfiltered. Except of course through my filter! 😃

Edited May 22, 2023 by Navidad

[Grug the Neanderthal]

2 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

People who claim anachronisms disprove the BOM are like young earth creationists who say evolution didn't happen because we're missing transitional fossils.

While I can appreciate the point you’re trying to make, I find this to be an odd comparison. You’re comparing people who try to use scientific evidence to deny the word of God to those who try to use scientific evidence to defend the word of God.

Case in point. I’m a very firm believer in the historicity of the Book of Mormon, even though not everything has been proven by archaeologists and radio carbon dating. I’m also firmly against macroevolution as the origin of life on earth as taught by secular scientists. 

There is a great deal that secular scientists do not know, especially when it comes to the past. When the word of God and scientific theory clash, the word of God prevails and will always be proven true in the end. 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[smac97]

5 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Why such large highways? Critics say these people never invented the wheel.

I think the criticism is about the use of the wheel as a means of transportation, which is not in evidence in the precolumbian Americas.

But then, I'm not sure wheels are in evidence in the text of the Book of Mormon, either.

Thanks,

-Smac

[mfbukowski]

25 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think the criticism is about the use of the wheel as a means of transportation, which is not in evidence in the precolumbian Americas.

So you keep on falling from stepping on junior's toy when you get up extra early to drag your sledge of firewood to sell in the next town over, but you don't figure out that if you put those round thingies on the sledge it's gonna make your task 100 times easier? 

It just never made sense to me!

All you have to do is see what ONE person does and you have a whole technology invented!

I never bought that distinction but I also could not figure out how it apparently happened!!

But the biggest news is that they invented Mickey Mouse!!

Edited May 22, 2023 by mfbukowski

[CV75]

27 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think the criticism is about the use of the wheel as a means of transportation, which is not in evidence in the precolumbian Americas.

But then, I'm not sure wheels are in evidence in the text of the Book of Mormon, either.

Thanks,

-Smac

Chariots!

9 And they said unto him: Behold, he is feeding thy ^ahorses. Now the king had commanded his servants, previous to the time of the watering of their flocks, that they should prepare his horses and chariots, and conduct him forth to the land of Nephi; for there had been a ^bgreat ^cfeast appointed at the land of Nephi, by the father of Lamoni, who was king over all the land.

10 Now when king Lamoni heard that Ammon was preparing his horses and his ^achariots he was more astonished, because of the faithfulness of Ammon, saying: Surely there has not been any servant among all my servants that has been so faithful as this man; for even he doth remember all my commandments to execute them.

11 Now I surely know that this is the Great Spirit, and I would desire him that he come in unto me, but I durst not.

12 And it came to pass that when Ammon had made ready the horses and the chariots for the king and his servants, he went in unto the king, and he saw that the ^acountenance of the king was changed; therefore he was about to return out of his presence.

[mfbukowski]

2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Chariots!

9 And they said unto him: Behold, he is feeding thy ^ahorses. Now the king had commanded his servants, previous to the time of the watering of their flocks, that they should prepare his horses and chariots, and conduct him forth to the land of Nephi; for there had been a ^bgreat ^cfeast appointed at the land of Nephi, by the father of Lamoni, who was king over all the land.

10 Now when king Lamoni heard that Ammon was preparing his horses and his ^achariots he was more astonished, because of the faithfulness of Ammon, saying: Surely there has not been any servant among all my servants that has been so faithful as this man; for even he doth remember all my commandments to execute them.

11 Now I surely know that this is the Great Spirit, and I would desire him that he come in unto me, but I durst not.

12 And it came to pass that when Ammon had made ready the horses and the chariots for the king and his servants, he went in unto the king, and he saw that the ^acountenance of the king was changed; therefore he was about to return out of his presence.

EModE strikes again!

 

[Pyreaux]

25 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think the criticism is about the use of the wheel as a means of transportation, which is not in evidence in the precolumbian Americas.

But then, I'm not sure wheels are in evidence in the text of the Book of Mormon, either.

Thanks,

-Smac

The Book of Mormon mentions "chariots" as a possible mode of transportation, so the critics think there should be evidence of Roman style wheeled chariots. 

[CV75]

More chariots! (in addition to the Isaiah passages):

22 And it came to pass in the seventeenth year, in the latter end of the year, the proclamation of Lachoneus had gone forth throughout all the face of the land, and they had taken their ^ahorses, and their chariots, and their cattle, and all their flocks, and their herds, and their grain, and all their substance, and did march forth by thousands and by tens of thousands, until they had all gone forth to the ^bplace which ^chad been appointed that they should gather themselves together, to defend themselves against their enemies.

[mfbukowski]

1 minute ago, Pyreaux said:

The Book of Mormon mentions "chariots" as a possible mode of transportation, so the critics think there should be evidence of Roman style wheeled chariots. 

It is interesting though that Inuits in the North used dogs and sleds.

But snow provides less friction than mud.... 

 

[CV75]

Wheel is “gal” in Hebrew, and we have a couple of names in eh Book of Mormon using “gal” in them: Gilgal (translated circle of stones)

Gilgal - Wikipedia

and Gallim (wheel):

גלל  גיל

The verb גלל (galal) primarily expresses rolling, whirling or heaping and may also denote a broad sweep (of land or time). Noun גל (gal) means heap or pile; גיל (gel), a heap specifically of dung; גלל (galal), dung; גלול (gillul), idols. Noun גלה (gulla) means bowl, basin or spring; noun גלילה (gelila), circuit, boundary or territory. Noun גליל (galil) denotes a supporting cylinder or rod; adjective גליל (galil), probably describes a cylindrical hinge column, noun מגלה (megilla) means scroll. Noun גלגל (gilgal) means wheel; noun גלגל (galgal), wheel or whirlwind. Noun גלגלת (gulgoleth) means skull or head. In cognate languages verb גלל (galal) extends to also describe the nobility of someone who rules a region. Gallim | The amazing name Gallim: meaning and etymology (abarim-publications.com)

Edited May 22, 2023 by CV75

[InCognitus]

12 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

The Book of Mormon mentions "chariots" as a possible mode of transportation, so the critics think there should be evidence of Roman style wheeled chariots. 

They just need to think outside the box:

[CV75]

"Those greasers stole our wheels again!"

[Zosimus]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

I will be attending a conference about this in a few weeks with some of those who actually were involved. I am interested to see what exactly that is new is in this report. I will fill you in on what I find out directly from the scientists unfiltered. Except of course through my filter! 😃

The lead author on the report is Richard Hansen, a practicing Mormon. 

King of the Jungle: The Mayan Empire of Archaeologist Richard Hansen

Edited May 22, 2023 by Zosimus

[Hamilton Porter]

9 minutes ago, Zosimus said:

The lead author on the report is Richard Hansen, a practicing Mormon. 

King of the Jungle: The Mayan Empire of Archaeologist Richard Hansen

Results invalid. No nOn-lDS ARchaeOlOgist...

[InCognitus]

33 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Results invalid. No nOn-lDS ARchaeOlOgist...

And his organization name is a blend of FAIR and FARMS, with a similar logo  

See:   https://www.fares-foundation.org/about/leadership.php

But this seems legit, they have actual artist renderings of the super highways:

 

That's from the REUTERS site:   https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/ancient-maya-cities-super-highways-revealed-latest-survey-2023-01-16/

Edited May 22, 2023 by InCognitus

[blackstrap]

One hopes they do a cross-sectional dig through the highway to see how it was built and whether it was made only for foot traffic or much greater loads. 

[InCognitus]

On a more serious note, the team published some of their research in the Cambridge University Press in 2022:

LiDAR analyses in the contiguous Mirador-Calakmul Karst Basin, Guatemala: an introduction to new perspectives on regional early Maya socioeconomic and political organization

"Super highways" is the click-bait layman's term for the "causeways" described in the paper:

Quote

Abstract
LiDAR coverage of a large contiguous area within the Mirador-Calakmul Karst Basin (MCKB) of northern Guatemala has identified a concentration of Preclassic Maya sites (ca. 1000 B.C.–A.D. 150) connected by causeways, forming a web of implied social, political, and economic interactions. This article is an introduction to one of the largest, contiguous, regional LiDAR studies published to date in the Maya Lowlands. More than 775 ancient Maya settlements are identified within the MCKB, and 189 more in the surrounding karstic ridge, which we condensed into 417 ancient cities, towns, and villages of at least six preliminary tiers based on surface area, volumetrics, and architectural configurations. Many tiered sites date to the Middle and Late Preclassic periods, as determined by archaeological testing, and volumetrics of contemporaneously constructed and/or occupied architecture with similar morphological characteristics. Monumental architecture, consistent architectural formats, specific site boundaries, water management/ collection facilities, and 177 km of elevated Preclassic causeways suggest labor investments that defy organizational capabilities of lesser polities and potentially portray the strategies of governance in the Preclassic period. Settlement distributions, architectural continuities, chronological contemporaneity, and volumetric considerations of sites provide evidence for early centralized administrative and socio-economic strategies within a defined geographical region.

The paper includes maps, like this one:

"Figure 2. Site map of the southern MCKB. The concentration of sites and causeways in the MCKB demonstrates the likely economic and political cohesion of the area. The background near-infrared image indicates the vegetation types with lowland, or bajo, vegetation in bluegreen and upland vegetation in red. Causeways do not extend beyond the natural borders of the basin, suggesting an enclosed centralization associated with settlement nucleation in the Middle and Late Preclassic periods. Sentinel-2 multispectral data: https://earthexplorer.usgs.gov."

It looks like these so-called "super highways" are limited to the community basin, so they probably had 20 KPH/h speed limit signs posted on them.  

On the right:  Figure 19. Detailed LIDAR image of the Mirador–Tintal causeway: (a) profile of Op. 500-A, excavation of the Mirador–Tintal causeway, showing the stratigraphic sequences of the construction phases with four floors (after Hernández-Salazar 2021:129; Hernández et al.  2013:950); (b) LiDAR image of Gavilan “El Paraiso” Island in the Bajo Carrizal, located south of El Mirador, showing the large Preclassic causeway. Background color represents terrain elevation with lowest elevations in light blue and gradually increasing to highest elevations in browns and white.

Edited May 22, 2023 by InCognitus

[JAHS]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

I think the criticism is about the use of the wheel as a means of transportation, which is not in evidence in the precolumbian Americas.

But then, I'm not sure wheels are in evidence in the text of the Book of Mormon, either.

Thanks,

-Smac

2 Nephi 15: 28 (From Isaiah 5)
"Whose arrows shall be sharp, and all their bows bent, and their horses’ hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind, their roaring like a lion."

If they didn't know what the wheel was then they must have been at least curious about what Isaiah said about them.

[The Nehor]

Without wheels and animals to pull things all the talk of sending provisions in the Book of Mormon don’t make much sense. Unless they were using river (or ocean) transport I suppose.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

So you keep on falling from stepping on junior's toy when you get up extra early to drag your sledge of firewood to sell in the next town over, but you don't figure out that if you put those round thingies on the sledge it's gonna make your task 100 times easier? 

It just never made sense to me!

All you have to do is see what ONE person does and you have a whole technology invented!

I never bought that distinction but I also could not figure out how it apparently happened!!

But the biggest news is that they invented Mickey Mouse!!

It is easy to make a toy wheel. It takes training and tools to make a wheel that can carry weight. Also without good roads the wheel might not be much of an improvement. If the wheel breaks the handcart (or whatever) is a liability and you would prefer the sledge.

[CV75]

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Without wheels and animals to pull things all the talk of sending provisions in the Book of Mormon don’t make much sense. Unless they were using river (or ocean) transport I suppose.

This depiction of river transport (title of liberty at teh top of left mast) from Mirador Temple 6 Stellae 17:

oops I meant Stella... Stellae is plural:

Edited May 22, 2023 by CV75

[smac97]

13 hours ago, JAHS said:

Quote

I think the criticism is about the use of the wheel as a means of transportation, which is not in evidence in the precolumbian Americas.

But then, I'm not sure wheels are in evidence in the text of the Book of Mormon, either.

2 Nephi 15: 28 (From Isaiah 5)
"Whose arrows shall be sharp, and all their bows bent, and their horses’ hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind, their roaring like a lion."

If they didn't know what the wheel was then they must have been at least curious about what Isaiah said about them.

I'm not saying that "they didn't know what the wheel was," but rather that there is not much evidence that the wheel was used in precolumbian times as a means of transportation.

That said, this article from Book of Mormon Central merits some attention:

Quote

In the minds of most people today, the word chariot conjures up images of warriors riding two-wheeled, horse drawn war-chariots into battle. In the Book of Mormon, however, chariots are never actually mentioned in a battle context.1 Sifting out references to Old World quotations,2 there are only three occasions wherein chariots appear in the Book of Mormon:

• Alma 18:9–12: Ammon “made ready the horses and the chariots” (v. 12), in accordance with King Lamoni’s command that his servants “should prepare his horses and chariots, and conduct him forth to the land of Nephi” so that he could attend “a great feast” hosted by his father and overking.3
• Alma 20:4–7: Lamoni again had his servants “make ready his horses and his chariots” (v. 6), this time so that he could visit a political ally4 and “flatter” him into releasing Ammon’s brothers (v. 4). 
• 3 Nephi 3:22: Chariots are included as part of a list of livestock and provisions taken by the Nephites when they left Zarahemla and withdrew for seven years into a more secure site as a defensive tactic against the Gadianton Robbers. 

These few references all occur within a small window of time from ca. 90 BC–AD 16, suggesting that, overall, chariots were not widely or frequently used among Book of Mormon peoples.5 Only two of these are in a definable context: both times when Lamoni asks for his chariots to be prepared, “the occasion is a formal state visit.”6 While “horses” are mentioned with chariots, chariots are never explicitly pulled by horses or any other animal. 

Due to the limited use and reference, it is hard to be certain about the nature of chariots in the Book of Mormon. Wheeled vehicles, as chariots are typically assumed to be, are thus far unattested for any part of pre-Columbian America. Nonetheless, in the late 19th century, pioneering archaeologist Désiré Charnay reported finding what he called “chariots” in central Mexico.7 To be sure, what Charnay found were wheeled figurines or “toys,” nothing that could actually be ridden on. About 100 such figurines are known,8 largely dated between AD 600–1250.9

Careful study of these figurines “demonstrate that at least some Mesoamericans grasped not only the concept of the wheel but also the concept of actual wheeled vehicles.”10 According to a pair of non-LDS Mesoamericanists, these figurines demonstrate that “the principle of using wheels to facilitate horizontal movement was familiar to at least some peoples of Pre-Columbian Mesoamerica.”11 In the ancient Near East, similar figurines are known to have “imitated full-scale wagons,”12 suggesting, perhaps, that the same is true in Mesoamerica.13

Alternatively, Charnay’s unconventional use of the word “chariot” invites other possibilities. The rare Hebrew word afiryon, meaning litter, palanquin, or sedan chair,14 is translated as “chariot” in the KJV (Song of Solomon 3:9). This was a non-wheeled vehicle wherein a rider was carried by servants. Just such litters or palanquins were known among pre-Columbian Mesoamericans. “Maya kings were borne in litters, often made of simple rushes and carried by just two bearers.”15 John L. Sorenson noted, “This form of transport was reserved for nobility and others of the upper social levels.”16

These litters were used for royal processions and nobles or dignitaries making a political visit. For instance, in 1542, after the Spanish conquest of the Maya region, “A throng of warriors escorting a young Maya lord seated in a palanquin” approached some Spanish sentries, “made signs that he had come in peace” and that he had brought food in what was apparently a diplomatic visit.17

A Classic Maya vase depicting the sacrifice of war prisoners shows a “visiting dignitary” who was “brought to the event in a litter.”18 The earliest known depiction of a Mesoamerican litter is Izapa Stela 21, dated to ca. 300–50 BC.19

With a litter, servants or bearers would “conduct [the king] forth” (Alma 18:9) in a royal procession. While no horse or draft animal was used to pull or carry the litter, an animal was commonly depicted traveling near the litter as part of the procession. For instance, LDS Mesoamericanist Mark Wright has pointed out that several Classic Maya vases depict a dog underneath the litter traveling as part of the entourage.20

Brant A. Gardner thus proposed, “The plausible underlying conveyance in the story of Ammon was a royal litter, accompanied in peacetime by the spiritual animal associated with the king.”21 In other words, Ammon would have prepared “horses” to travel with the king, while the servants “conduct him forth to the land of Nephi” (Alma 18:9) in his litter. 

There are not always definitive answers to questions some may have about the Book of Mormon. These unsolved puzzles invite both faith and further learning if they are approached with patience, careful reading, and an open mind. Just as with the occurrence of the word “horse” in the text, there are opportunities to learn, explore, wonder, and grow in faith.22

The current state of archaeological knowledge is limited,23 and caution must be taken when evaluating negative evidence. LDS Mesoamerican archaeologist John E. Clark once explained: “Positive and negative evidence do not count the same,” because, “Given current means of verification, positive items are here to stay, but negative items may prove to be positive ones in hiding.”24 Several things mentioned in the Book of Mormon once considered missing have since proven to be in the right place at the right time all along.25 “It is in this light,” concluded Clark, “that we should consider many arguments against the Book of Mormon.”26

Archaeology currently shows that some peoples in pre-Columbian Mesoamerica did understand the conceptual principles behind wheeled vehicles, although there is no evidence that these were actually put into practice. Still, over a 600-year period (ca. AD 600–1250), it is likely that at least some attempt, however limited and short lived, would have been made to put the wheel into practical use.

Perhaps the brief time-period (the first centuries BC and AD) wherein chariots are mentioned in the Book of Mormon represents just such a limited, short-lived attempt, albeit at a much earlier time than current evidence for the wheeled figurines. Then the Nephites and Lamanites abandoned the technology because it lacked any practical advantages.27 A brief attempt at using the wheel that is quickly abandoned would be very difficult to find in the archaeological record.

Exploring the possibilities for chariots also reinforces the importance of reading scripture with an open mind. It takes humility and maturity to step away from long-held assumptions and read the scriptural text from a fresh perspective. Nonetheless, doing so while exploring questions in a historical context can provide clarity and understanding to Book of Mormon passages. As Charnay and the KJV translation of afiryon demonstrate, “chariot” can have broader meaning than what might typically come to mind. That usage can include non-wheeled vehicles like the litters used all throughout Mesoamerica clear back into Book of Mormon times. 

Although this paints a very different image than what most readers have come to expect, conventional use of litters in Mesoamerica is consistent with the uses of chariots in the Book of Mormon. Furthermore, if Ammon was expecting to be one of the bearers of King Lamoni’s litter, thus having to “conduct him forth to the land of Nephi” on his shoulders (Alma 18:9), such a visual adds another layer of humility to this great missionary. He was literally willing to bear and carry those he had been called to serve.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited May 22, 2023 by smac97