Sovereign Citizen (and Latter-day Saint) Killed by Police

[smac97]

First, a brief introduction from Wikipedia:

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The sovereign citizen movement (also SovCit movement or SovCits^[1]) is a loose grouping of litigants, activists, tax protesters, financial scheme promoters, and conspiracy theorists who claim to be answerable only to their particular interpretations of the common law and believe that they are therefore not subject to any government statutes or proceedings, unless they consent to them.^[2][3] The movement, which appeared in the early 1970s, is American in origin and exists primarily in the United States, though it has expanded to other countries. Notably, the freeman on the land movement, an offshoot of the sovereign citizen movement with similar doctrines, emerged during the 2000s in Canada before spreading to other Commonwealth countries.^[4] In the United States, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) describes sovereign citizens as "anti-government extremists who believe that even though they physically reside in this country, they are separate or 'sovereign' from the United States."^[5]

The sovereign citizen phenomenon is one of the main contemporary sources of pseudolaw: adherents to its ideology notably believe that courts have no actual jurisdiction over people and that the use of certain procedures (such as writing specific phrases on bills they do not want to pay) and loopholes can make one immune from government laws and regulations.^[6] They also regard most forms of taxation as illegitimate.^[7] Sovereign citizen arguments have no basis in law and have never been successful in court.^[3][6]

I have not commented much on this issue.  I do so now to condemn it and express concern about it having a foothold amongst the members of the Church.  It is an incoherent and dangerous ideology that we must emphatically avoid, and even work against.

It appears that Lori Daybell's parrents were SovCit types (see, e.g., here), as are, apparently Ammon Bundy and his brother, Ryan (see here), and the Lafferty brothers (here).  

I have been wondering how prevalent this ideology is amongst members of the Church, some of whom are unfortunately susceptible to this sort of unwise thinking.  Although Utah is certainly not equivalent to "the Church," I think this 3/23 Trib article is noteworthy: What we know about ‘sovereign citizens’ in Utah, after Farmington shooting draws attention to movement

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The fatal police shooting in Farmington this month drew attention to “sovereign citizens,” a loose network of right-wing extremists who reject government and law enforcement.

The decedent in the shooting incident referenced here was Chase Linde Allan, described in this New York Post article as "a 25-year-old graduate of Utah State University" and "member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" who "said he was independent of any and all US laws."  His mother had apparently bought into the SovCit ideology (see, e.g., here, here, here).  Unfortunately, a key component of this ideology involves defying laws associated with motor vehicles (such has registering a vehicle and having valid license plates, having car insurance, getting a driver's license, etc.), which rather easily attracts the attention of law enforcement, who pull over these folks regarding expired or missing plates.  These roadside incidents can then become confrontational and, at worst, culminate in violence, as happened with Chase Allan.  Here is a YouTube video showing the bodycam footage of the incident (warning, it's graphic).

Back to the Trib Article:

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Their rejection of government bleeds into their own ranks — they have no formal, nationwide membership rolls, like some militia groups. They don’t wear group uniforms, or patches, and they don’t typically gather together at large meetings, as retired FBI agent Greg Rogers put it.

“Sovereign citizen groups are often small,” said Rogers, who spent a decade investigating such individuals. “It can be one family. It can be a group of very close friends. They don’t like to congregate.”

That’s one reason why it’s largely unknown how prevalent sovereign citizens are in Utah, even if law enforcement is generally aware that they exist. The FBI and Utah Department of Public Safety declined to estimate for The Salt Lake Tribune.

“They think the government is watching them all the time,” Rogers said. “So they’re very, very insular in that way.”

But based on his expertise, Rogers said Utah has a “good number” of sovereign citizens, whom the FBI considers a domestic terrorism movement.

“We have more than our share for the size of the state we’re in,” Rogers said.

This is troubling to me, both as a resident of Utah and as a Latter-day Saint.  

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It remains unclear if 25-year-old Chase Allan, who Farmington police fatally shot March 1, considered himself a sovereign citizen. Allan was killed minutes after an officer pulled him over for having an illegitimate license plate, police have said.

In place of a legitimate plate was a placard, which bore a sovereign citizen symbol — a clue that has drawn speculation about a potential connection to the movement, and whether such a connection may have contributed to an escalation between him and police.

I think it's not unreasonable for police to be wary of someone driving around with fake plates.  That doesn't mean they are excused from the normative requirements for the use of deadly force.

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Even if Allan was associated with the movement, few sovereign citizens resort to violence, Rogers said, though it can happen. In Nevada in 2014, a married couple authorities later determined were associated with the sovereign citizen movement ambushed two Las Vegas officers eating lunch at a Cicis Pizza, killing both.

Rogers advised that the general public largely doesn’t need to be concerned about sovereign citizens, though, because they are typically “not looking to do something aggressive on their own.”

That seems like pretty good advice.  My concern about the SovCit ideology is based on a variety of things, only one of which is the potential for violence.  As Latter-day Saints, "{w}e believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."  SovCit ideology is, I think, largely at odds with this important principle.  And in the case of Chase Allan, it looks like that ideology may have materially contributed to the circumstances leading to his death.

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Instead, sovereign citizens are more commonly known to harass government employees with so-called “paper terrorism,” filing frivolous lawsuits, bogus liens and other documents without sound legal basis as a way to intimidate people, according to the FBI.

In Davis County, where Farmington is located, the county attorney’s office is on the front lines. The office has seen hundreds of court filings and motions from apparent sovereign citizens over the years, an official said, including some from Allan’s mother, Diane Killian-Allan, records show.

After she was cited in April 2022 for driving without a license and not registering her car, Killian-Allan filed 20 such motions — including one “very large packet of paperwork” — and called the court clerk at least five times, according to court documents. Killian-Allan did not respond to a request for comment.

Davis County officials said that both Allan and his mother had also previously sent documents to the county clerk’s office renouncing their U.S. citizenship — indications that they may have been believers in the movement.

Yeah, that's a pretty good indicator.  It's an ideology, after all, so it's not like there is a membership roll somewhere.

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In his role as the Davis County clerk/auditor, Curtis Koch has also had multiple run-ins with sovereign citizens.

He recalled a man who once demanded that all mention of him be removed from county records, something Koch said he could not legally do.

“Then he started sending me bills, saying that if I didn’t comply, I would have to pay personally X amount of dollars,” said Koch, who now only serves as the county auditor, after the clerk/auditor’s office was divided last year.

In time, the man’s demands “amped up,” Koch recalled — not just “past-due” notices, but threats to hold him “personally accountable.” Other sovereign citizens have sent Koch “veiled threats,” he said, including one who told Koch that if he “acted like a horse thief,” he should be “treated as a horse thief.” In the Old West, the punishment for stealing horses was sometimes death.

In Salt Lake County, former clerk Sherrie Swensen — who retired in January after serving eight terms — said her office regularly received visits and letters from sovereign citizens declaring that they were not required to obey laws.

“It would be maybe once every six months or so. Not a huge number,” she said. “But it is definitely more prevalent than we think.”

Swensen recalled one man who made his own passport, “and he actually had a bloody thumb print on it, if you can imagine.” (Sovereign citizens often use finger or thumb prints in blood, experts say.) “At that point,” Swensen said, “one of my staff was a little bit concerned, because he was pretty aggressive.”

About a decade ago, one self-proclaimed sovereign citizen came in and told Swensen that he was going to call a “citizens jury” to arrest and try various elected officials, and that he wanted to file papers to that effect. When Swensen told him she couldn’t accept his papers before speaking to an attorney, “I remember him telling me, ‘I would hate to have to handcuff you and put you in custody.’”

She laughed it off, and thought it was “ridiculous.” But after she reported the incident to the county attorney’s office, she learned that the man had a violent criminal history. She hadn’t given much thought to the fact that he was wearing a long, black trench coat on a hot day, but she later wondered if he might have been concealing a weapon.

“I think that’s the X Factor right there,” Koch said. “You don’t know where these folks are on the [threat] spectrum.”

Several years ago I had an interesting experience with a fellow whom I believe was a SovCit guy, (see here).

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According to Utah Highway Patrol Capt. Alex Lepley, state troopers are trained to recognize and interact with sovereign citizens specifically — training that began long before the Farmington police shooting.

“Our troopers do come in contact with them periodically,” Lepley said. “So we want to make sure we give our guys the advantage where possible, and get them current training on the sovereign citizen movement — what to look out for, things like that.”

UHP troopers are trained to recognize certain sovereign citizen symbols, such as the flag on Allan’s placard — which featured blue stars in a white field, with vertical red-and-white stripes — on either similar fake license plates, or on stickers, Lepley said. A sign proclaiming that their vehicle is “not for hire,” which was also stated on Allan’s placard, is common.

Sometimes, they display a yellow Gadsden flag — which features a snake over the words “Don’t tread on me.” (The couple who killed two officers in Las Vegas placed a Gadsden flag on the body of one of the officers.) When approached by officers, sovereign citizens often refuse to get out of their cars, and claim that they do not need a driver license, car registration or car insurance, Lepley added.

But not all law enforcement agencies are as up-to-speed on sovereign citizens, Rogers believes. “And I used to do the training,” he said.

I am glad law enforcement is getting training on this stuff.

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Farmington police Chief Eric Johnsen for instance has previously said it’s unclear whether the officer who initially pulled Allan over March 1 recognized the symbol on Allan’s placard.

“All I can tell you is none of us are experts in these things,” Johnsen told The Tribune a few days after the shooting. “I mean, I’m a 20-year officer and, literally, in the thousands of traffic stops that I’ve made in my career — thousands — I’ve only encountered a couple of people affiliated like this.”

Hmm.  This police chief says encounters with SovCit types are rare.  The Davis County and Salt Lake County folks who deal with county records seem to have more regular encounters with such folks.

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Rogers emphasized that he was not trying to criticize Farmington officers, who were “just doing their job.” He called the shooting a “tragic situation that didn’t need to go down that way.”

“It’s a matter of training and knowing what you’re dealing with,” Rogers said.

Still, Lepley noted that “anybody can be a threat” to an officer, “and obviously, not all of the contacts with sovereign citizens turn out the way that the Farmington incident did — fortunately.”

Sometimes, sovereign citizens comply with troopers, but say that they are under duress as they do so, he said. Others don’t comply at all. “Each situation is unique.”

“We focus a lot on de-escalation,” Lepley said. “That wouldn’t be unique to the sovereign citizen movement.”

I'm glad to hear that.  As foolish as I think the SovCit movement is, I want them to have the same legal protections as anyone else.

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Rogers, who teaches a criminal justice course at Utah Valley University, said that the Farmington police shooting may prompt local law enforcement agencies across the state to seek training specific to sovereign citizens. It’s also possible the FBI’s Salt Lake City office may reach out to departments to suggest such training, noting in his experience, “it would be very typical.”

Lepley volunteered that UHP is “happy to share” sovereign citizen training materials with local police — if asked. “But we don’t specifically go out and teach other agencies.”

As of last week, no local police agencies had requested any such help from the Department of Public Safety.

Even if adversarial incidents with law enforcement seem to be a rare thing in Utah, getting training couldn't hurt.

The Deseret News has a more details summary of the Chase Allan incident here: What is a sovereign citizen?

This Daily Beast article about the incident also includes this bit:

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On Sunday, mourners gathered in Farmington, Utah, to denounce Allan’s death and release balloons inscribed with his name. That vigil had been promoted by the People’s Rights movement, a far-right network helmed by right-wing activist Ammon Bundy.

The group’s advertisement of the vigil likened Allan’s death to that of LaVoy Finicum, a Bundy ally who was shot dead by law enforcement during Bundy’s 2016 occupation of Oregon’s Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. FBI agents say Finicum was reaching for a gun at the time of the shooting, a claim Finicum’s family has thus far unsuccessfully contested in court.

Several speakers at the vigil had previously been listed as People’s Rights movement associates.

“He [Allan] was doing the best he could to love everyone and to help us keep those freedoms alive,” speaker June Reese told the mourners, according to Utah’s Fox13. An October 2021 People’s Rights memo lists her as a point person for an effort to pack a controversial county commission meeting about limits on comments during public meetings.

Victoria Dortzbach, who told vigil-goers that she had known Allan for several years, described him as a gentle person. “It’s beyond fathomable what just happened,” Dortzbach said. A report from the group Institute for Research and Education on Human Rights lists Dortzbach as a People’s Rights organizer in its Utah 3 district.

In 2016 in response to Ammon Bundy's behavior in Oregon (in which he, as Sam Brunson put it, "adopted the grammar of Mormonism and Mormon scripture to justify their armed trespass), the Church issued this public announcement:

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In response to news media inquiries, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints issued the following statement Monday, January 4 (for more context on this issue, see this story from the Washington Post): 

While the disagreement occurring in Oregon about the use of federal lands is not a Church matter, Church leaders strongly condemn the armed seizure of the facility and are deeply troubled by the reports that those who have seized the facility suggest that they are doing so based on scriptural principles. This armed occupation can in no way be justified on a scriptural basis. We are privileged to live in a nation where conflicts with government or private groups can — and should — be settled using peaceful means, according to the laws of the land.

Additional Resources

Elder Dallin H. Oaks: Our Strengths Can Become Our Downfall

I was glad to see the Church speak so forcefully and clearly, and I hope the Latter-day Saints are paying attention.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

[LoudmouthMormon]

There's a sovereign-citizen-esque brother in my ward.  I made a point of buddying up to him years ago, because I'm a sucker for an eclectic take on things.  He's such an interesting fellow.  Not involved in any group or organization or anything like that (as far as I know), but he certainly talks the talk, and occasionally walks the walk.   He had a decade-long track record of arguing forcefully in EQ meetings, HP meetings, hallways, clerk's offices, whenever the topic of government or driving or taxes or the constitution came up.   Dude struck me as first and foremost a faithful saint, and he'd pour as much zeal into his crazy stuff as scriptures and general conference talks would allow.   A massive mountain of muscle with a deep bassy voice, with the emotional range of a hammer that occasionally laughs.

We were both ward clerks, and I'd listen to him hold forth on endless topics.  How the state of Colorado isn't (it's a corporation that's capitalized differently).  How drivers' licenses are invalid because they're based on a social security number that isn't tied to him as a person, but him as a corporation.  Dude took the whole year supply seriously - and when the govt seized his house because of tax problems, I helped him move his bullet proof vest and sniper rifles and survival equipment and etc to his rental unit.   He lived in a military-grade tent on a member's property for a year - always tinkering with his rocket stove and coming to church smelling like wood smoke - until a neighbor complained and the county made him leave.   Such a weird combination of privacy/security mindedness, and networking engineer with the latest iphone.  The church only had a PO box for his address, but my ward was his home no matter where he happened to live at the time.   Even though he has moved 60 miles away to Denver, he still attends church virtually (I run the camera and talk to him in the zoom chat.)

I never had the slightest worry that he'd go off his hinges and arm up.  He was so in tune with scriptural admonition and prophetic guidance, always waiting for the prophet to tell him it was time to go save the constitution, but smart enough to not read into leader counsel.   He's the only saint I've ever met who never cracked a hymnbook the entire time I knew him, yet he would sing all the verses of every song sacrament meeting threw at us.  He was at every service project.  He went out of his way to do plain old Christlike service to the sisters and youth of the ward.  

In the 5-6 years I knew him, I think I won exactly one argument with him.  It was the EQ lesson about the constitution as inspired document.  He was in the middle of derailing the lesson, ranting about how the original constitution hasn't been in effect for a century, going on about how there have been illegal revisions to it, naming dates, etc.  I asked him "If all that's true, how come Pres [whoever] says right here in the manual that we need to study and defend the constitution?  He almost shouted "I don't know!" - I've never seen him look so scared.  He clammed up, and in the months that followed, I was suddenly in his 'inner circle' of folks he trusted - because I was one of the few who had actually shown him something he hadn't previously thought of.  

Yeah, the next ten SC-ish folks I meet, I wouldn't be surprised at all to discover I don't like and worry about.  But this guy was cut from a unique cloth.

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Thoughts?

My knee-jerk reaction is that I'm baffled why a member of the church would want to be associated with such a movement. 

[ksfisher]

4 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

He was so in tune with scriptural admonition and prophetic guidance...

Even the scriptural admonition (from the Savior) to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's?  Or the guidance, from the pen of Joseph Smith, to be subject to kings and presidents?  (those are rhetorical questions)

[Tacenda]

52 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

My knee-jerk reaction is that I'm baffled why a member of the church would want to be associated with such a movement. 

Maga?

[ksfisher]

17 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Maga?

To me that more of a political choice, which members of the church are free to support if they so choose.  The sovereign citizen movement just seems like an excuse for asocial behavior.

Personally, extremism, at either end the spectrum, turns me off.

[bluebell]

From a purely emotional point of view, as a mother of grown sons, I’m more judgmental of his mom than of him.

(IF the police were justified in shooting him)

I know that sounds cruel, and maybe it is because she lost a son. But it seems like she taught him that resisting arrest and being armed were acceptable things to do. And when you teach your son to do that, then I feel like you’re at least partly responsible for the very obvious outcome.

[SkyRock]

I had a family member get involved in this once.  I read the literature and pointed out all the flaws in the facts and logic.  The family member eventually moved on from it.

This doctrine is a clear violation of the gospel.   

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

I was glad to see the Church speak so forcefully and clearly, and I hope the Latter-day Saints are paying attention.

The best thing to do is comply with the cops and then have a lawyer with you later.

[LoudmouthMormon]

4 hours ago, ksfisher said:

4 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

He was so in tune with scriptural admonition and prophetic guidance...

Even the scriptural admonition (from the Savior) to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's?  Or the guidance, from the pen of Joseph Smith, to be subject to kings and presidents?  (those are rhetorical questions)

I mean, he had very long drawn out answers for such valid questions.  They revolved around the difference between a roman coin (made of precious metal with an inherent value), and a piece of paper that says "it's worth a dollar - trust me".  And he was very against the notion that a government should be able to tax private property.  He could quote the 5th and 14th amendments from memory.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Maga?

The SovCit movement predates MAGA but many sovcit types joined in. It was an offshoot of white nationalist groups of the 1970s and also had some roots with tax dodgers. 

The SovCit movement basically believes that there are fundamental flaws in the law that make it non-binding on them. They imagine that certain phrases are almost magic incantations that mean no law can impact them. They base this on an incoherent reading of English common law and a bunch of absolute rubbish history. It doesn’t work. They basically think there is a form of sorcery by which you can exempt yourself from the law. 

Extremists have been behind a number of acts of domestic terror in the United States. Terry Nichols of the Oklahoma City Bombing was an adherent. The crackpots who occupied the wildlife refuge a few years back were adherents and believed the county sheriff could show up and overrule the FBI which is a common belief amongst the SovCit movement.

[The Nehor]

On further reflection this post was only worth making once.

Edited March 31, 2023 by The Nehor

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, SkyRock said:

I had a family member get involved in this once.  I read the literature and pointed out all the flaws in the facts and logic.  The family member eventually moved on from it.

This doctrine is a clear violation of the gospel.   

You sure helped them dodge a bullet!

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

The SovCit movement predates MAGA but many sovcit types joined in. It was an offshoot of white nationalist groups of the 1970s and also had some roots with tax dodgers. 

The SovCit movement basically believes that there are fundamental flaws in the law that make it non-binding on them. They imagine that certain phrases are almost magic incantations that mean no law can impact them. They base this on an incoherent reading of English common law and a bunch of absolute rubbish history. It doesn’t work. They basically think there is a form of sorcery by which you can exempt yourself from the law. 

Extremists have been behind a number of acts of domestic terror in the United States. Terry Nichols of the Oklahoma City Bombing was an adherent. The crackpots who occupied the wildlife refuge a few years back were adherents and believed the county sheriff could show up and overrule the FBI which is a common belief amongst the SovCit movement.

Thanks for the time in answering this!

[3DOP]

Thanks Smac for bring this to my attention. I watched the video and read all of your commentary.

The deceased seemed like a good kid who had studied a defense of a kind of freedom that probably hadn't been contested fully, is impractical in the world in which we live, and incompatible with the teachings of his church.

For @ksfisher especially, hi.

I would have to respectfully disagree with the notion you proposed that the adherents of this movement, and this young man, are merely looking for an excuse for asocial behavior. It appears to me more likely that this young man studied his way into thinking that he was doing right, that he was advancing a good cause in his own mind, and he was willing to accept risks for that cause. I do not go so far as LDS do in binding themselves to follow every law of every nation in which they find themselves. But I do find the rigorous LDS position to be closer to what I perceive as the more nuanced Catholic position. I certainly hope that more can be done by LDS leaders to demonstrate the danger of this movement to its faithful and to help them out of it.  

It was a very unfortunate incident all around. I thought the officer was very respectful and patient. I liked the way he handled it, even that he eventually used lethal force, if it appeared to him the young man might be reaching for a gun.

I would be interested in how law enforcement training for this ideology would have allowed the officer to handle the matter more effectively.

I have sympathy for the young man, as I do anybody, but especially young people with courage for their convictions. Of course he would be alive if his asocial behavior was wasting too much time with video games and social media. I don't know though which makes the better person. Both need to make changes in their lives. But I find myself thinking that if he could have tried living this ideology practically for a few more adult years, he might have found a nice girl in his church, whose parents he liked, and who explained his church's teaching to him. Disillusionment with practical problems of an ideology...not to mention love, could make a young man question his mother's indoctrination. It IS more challenging to make a living in most of this country without a social security card and a driver's license. I think the deceased would have been a better prospective father and husband for this nice girl, than the boys who were filling their heads with nothing, while he was tangled up in a false notion of freedom in society. I liked him. May he rest in peace.

Very sad.

3DOP 

     

Edited April 1, 2023 by 3DOP

[3DOP]

On 3/31/2023 at 2:25 PM, ksfisher said:

My knee-jerk reaction is that I'm baffled why a member of the church would want to be associated with such a movement. 

ksfisher,

I mention you in a post above, and I was hoping that by using your handle with a @ before it, you would get a notification. In case you don't get one from that, (usually I see those in blue) I am writing this.

Rory

Edited April 1, 2023 by 3DOP

[3DOP]

So I was talking to my oldest boy about the tragedy this evening. He has been a deputy sheriff for a while now, first in So. California and now for Spokane County, WA. it is just across the Idaho/Washington border. I was surprised at his familiarity with the Sovereign Citizens. He said there was an incident in a more rural area of Orange County, California some time ago now, where two officers were involved in a similar traffic stop to the one which is linked in this thread. It ended differently, but even more tragically. A father and son had handed over a pile of paperwork, supposedly supporting their legal right to not provide identification or register their car to the officers who were trying to decipher it with their backs turned to the car they had pulled over. Father and son then pulled out their automatic weapons and killed them both. While virtually all of Southern California law enforcement was chasing them down, he said it was a park ranger (!), who crashed his vehicle into them and had to finish them off. (I guess they carry weapons?)

I might have some details wrong; so might my son. It was a quick conversation. It was a long time ago. He thought it was around 2005. But the point would be, that if this is partially true, there is serious danger for law enforcement whenever they encounter these people. They need to be prepared. My son has had no formal training in dealing with this. But I am glad he seemed personally familiar and ready if he ever needs to be. He won't be turning his back to people who hand him a pile of documents to show why they have no obligation to reveal their identity.

---------------

He was on his way to work when we spoke. But we were interrupted when he got a call. He came back briefly to say that he was informed that he would be rushing to a call about someone who had been decapitated in an ATV accident. There are surely corrupted law enforcement officers. But there are a lot of unsung heroes too. God bless the great majority of our law enforcement personnel who see and do things we can barely imagine, while in the service of keeping us safe while we are awake and asleep.

3DOP   

[LoudmouthMormon]

By the way, if you want a general sense of what Sovereign citizens do, just go enter the term into YouTube.  There are umpteen videos of them getting pulled over for simple driving infractions, and escalating matters until they get arrested.  Or showing up to court, and escalating matters until they get cited for contempt and hauled off kicking and screaming.  Or taking random interactions with cops and escalating matters until they end up tazed and cuffed.  There are thousands of videos.  Some folks have monetized YouTube channels that do nothing but post videos of SovCits being stupid and making life harder for themselves than necessary.

If you paid attention to the Darryl Brooks murder trial, about 80% of the crap that came out of his mouth was straight out of the SC playbook.

[The Nehor]

53 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

By the way, if you want a general sense of what Sovereign citizens do, just go enter the term into YouTube.  There are umpteen videos of them getting pulled over for simple driving infractions, and escalating matters until they get arrested.  Or showing up to court, and escalating matters until they get cited for contempt and hauled off kicking and screaming.  Or taking random interactions with cops and escalating matters until they end up tazed and cuffed.  There are thousands of videos.  Some folks have monetized YouTube channels that do nothing but post videos of SovCits being stupid and making life harder for themselves than necessary.

If you paid attention to the Darryl Brooks murder trial, about 80% of the crap that came out of his mouth was straight out of the SC playbook.

Some of the court videos quickly descend into a kind of dark comedy.

Most are kooks but the FBI has put the group in the same category as some other domestic terror groups.

[Tacenda]

My local tv station, I believe KUTV 2news, is airing a special about groups in Utah on the 10 pm news on Monday, tomorrow night.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Tacenda

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

My local tv station, I believe KUTV 2news, is airing a special about groups in Utah on the 10 pm news on Monday, tomorrow night.

I believe the Sovcit movement is more prominent in Idaho but I am sure there are several in Utah.

[smac97]

On 4/1/2023 at 3:18 PM, 3DOP said:

Thanks Smac for bring this to my attention. I watched the video and read all of your commentary.

The deceased seemed like a good kid who had studied a defense of a kind of freedom that probably hadn't been contested fully, is impractical in the world in which we live, and incompatible with the teachings of his church.

For @ksfisher especially, hi.

I would have to respectfully disagree with the notion you proposed that the adherents of this movement, and this young man, are merely looking for an excuse for asocial behavior.

I think there is a lot of "ideological" motivation here, with "asocial behavior" being the natural and foreseeable consequence of applying SovCit ideology in the real world.

On 4/1/2023 at 3:18 PM, 3DOP said:

It appears to me more likely that this young man studied his way into thinking that he was doing right, that he was advancing a good cause in his own mind, and he was willing to accept risks for that cause.

I suspect he was, unfortunately, heavily influenced by his mother and her quixotic fight against the Farmington City Police.  From this news article: 

Quote

Nearly a year before Chase Allan was shot and killed by Farmington Police, his mother, Diane Allan, was pulled over for a similar reason and body cam footage showed both responded to officers in a similar manner, up until police opened Chase Allan’s door. 

On Mar. 1, Farmington police stopped Chase Allan over an illegitimate license plate. 

“I don’t need registration and I don’t answer questions,” said Chase Allan to the officer. 

On Apr. 7, 2022, when Farmington Police stopped Diane Allan, the officer told her the car’s registration was expired. 

“What is your probable cause for stopping me?” Diane Allan asked. 

“So, for the expired registration,” said the officer. 

“That’s not a probable cause,” said Diane Allan. 

Both Chase and Diane Allan refused to provide their names and gave the officers their passports. 

What an appallingly foolish thing to do, and to (apparently) teach one's child to do.

Quote

“That is not me. That is a piece of plastic paper,” said Chase Allan. 

“So you have a fraudulent passport. Wonderful,” said the officer. 

So he had ID, but then denied that it identified him.  This is part and parcel of the SovCit ideology.  They have incoherent ideas about how a "person" may also be a separate "corporation" and such.  That is likely what Mr. Allan had in mind when he said "That is not me."  But in claiming that the ID was "not me," he escalated the situation because the police officer was now not just dealing with a missing registration and an uncooperative individual, the officer was also dealing with an apparent admission of showing a fraudulent ID.

Quote

Less than one minute into the officer’s body cam footage with Chase Allan, the officer called for backup. Within two minutes, four more officers’ body cameras were activated. 

In that same amount of time, Diane’s officer phoned a colleague, asking how to handle the situation. 

“Is it worth pulling her out of her car and arresting her for failure to identify?” the officer asked. “No. Probably not,” said the colleague. 

Instead, the colleague recommended he ticket her for not having a driver’s license and expired vehicle registration. Dispatch can also be heard telling the officer Diane Allan has a concealed firearm permit. 

The article here is not clear, but she did produce her passport.

Quote

For Chase Allan, it escalated. 

“Step out of the car for me,” said the officer. 

“No,” said Chase Allan. 

“Sir, step out of the vehicle right now,” said an officer. 

“We’re going to have an issue where (unintelligible),” said Chase Allan. 

“If you don’t step out of the car, we’re going to have to break the window and pull you out,” said an officer. 

Farmington Police Chief Eric Johnson said when the officer opened Chase Allan’s door, Chase moved his hand toward his right hip. 

“I see a manipulation of that holster move into that holster, but I can’t clearly see a firearm from the angle that the camera is,” said Johnson. 

Shortly after the officers opened the door, someone yelled gun several times. In the next five seconds, Chase Allan’s engine revs and nearly 30 rounds appear to be fired. 

When Chase Allan was pulled from his vehicle, he was wearing an empty holster. Shortly after this, body cam footage shows what appears to be a gun on the vehicle floor’s driver side. 

A terrible situation, and one that - AFAICS - is entirely attributable to Mr. Allan.  The investigation will likely take some time, but I think that will be the outcome.

Quote

Diane Allan never left her vehicle. Dispatch was able to locate her information based on her passport. The dispatcher also can be heard telling the officer Diane has an active concealed firearm permit. 

Nearly 16 minutes passed before the police ticketed her. Chase was shot in under 5 minutes. 

Diane received two tickets, adding up to roughly $100 in fines. She filed a lawsuit against the police back in September 2022. In the lawsuit, she claimed she is not under the jurisdiction of the city, state, or the U.S. saying she is a sovereign citizen. During her court proceedings, Chase Allan was taken into custody on several charges including disorderly conduct.

The fatal ingredients, however, were that he was armed, that he was not cooperating with police, and that he did not notify police that he was armed (and, perhaps, that he was pulling his weapon - more investigation will be needed for this point).

On 4/1/2023 at 3:18 PM, 3DOP said:

I do not go so far as LDS do in binding themselves to follow every law of every nation in which they find themselves.

There can be extraordinary circumstances, I suppose.  "Jews in the Attic" and all that. 

Also, laws and regulations have proliferated at every level of government, to an extend that it is essentially impossible to even be aware of them all, let alone comply with them in every particular.

Nevertheless, in the main, I think the 12th Article of Faith is pretty clear.

On 4/1/2023 at 3:18 PM, 3DOP said:

But I do find the rigorous LDS position to be closer to what I perceive as the more nuanced Catholic position. I certainly hope that more can be done by LDS leaders to demonstrate the danger of this movement to its faithful and to help them out of it.

The Church has long counseled against extremism in all its forms.

On 4/1/2023 at 3:18 PM, 3DOP said:

It was a very unfortunate incident all around. I thought the officer was very respectful and patient. I liked the way he handled it, even that he eventually used lethal force, if it appeared to him the young man might be reaching for a gun.

Yes, this is one of the more idiotic aspects of the SovCit movement.  The time and place and manner for arguing against government authority is not on the side of the road.

On 4/1/2023 at 3:18 PM, 3DOP said:

I would be interested in how law enforcement training for this ideology would have allowed the officer to handle the matter more effectively.

The police officer was both civil and professional.  He was clear and concise in his communications and instructions. 

Throughout the entire exchange, Mr. Allan lowered the driver's window down only a few inches, and refused to lower it further.  This 

He explained why he had pulled over Mr. Allan (no registration / plates).  He did not unduly escalate the situation when Mr. Allan stated that he (Mr. Allan) did not need car registration, nor did he need to answer any questions.  He called for more backup, checked to confirm no other occupants in the vehicle, repeated the basis for the stop, and told Mr. Allan that he was being detained and was not free to leave.  

He repeated his instruction for Mr. Allan to produce identification.  He gave Mr. Allan several opportunities to comply.  He maintained his composure and civility throughout Mr. Allan's nonsensical spoutings.

Mr. Allan finally provided identification (his passport), and then immediately stated "That is not me, that is a piece of plastic paper."  The police officer responded "So you have a fraudulent passport?  Wonderful.  That's what I'm hearing.  Kay, step out of the car for me...," and Mr. Allan refused.  The officer repeated the instruction, and Mr. Allan again refused.  The officer repeated the instruction a third time, a fourth time, and then another officer told Mr. Allan that if he did not exit the vehicle they would break the window and pull him out.

At that point they open the door and another officer leans into the cabin, and one of the officers immediately shouts "gun, gun, gun, gun!"  At that moment, as the officer leans in, Mr. Allan, who had previously been holding his cellphone up with his right hand (presumably to record the interaction) can be seen as having lowered his right hand to waist level.  His left hand (next to the driver door) was also at waist level.  He also seems to have shifted his hips forward on the seat (as one may do when trying to pull a wallet or keys from a front pants pocket).  

The officers immediately backed away and fired a number of shots into the cabin, then called "cease fire, cease fire!", all in a matter of 6-7 seconds.  The engine revs strongly, likely because Mr. Allan had been struck multiple times and his leg spasmed and pressed the gas pedal (the engine was still on, but the vehicle was in park).  They then re-approach the vehicle, open the door (which had swung into a partially-open position) and dragged Mr. Allan out and placed him on the ground.  His empty gun holster is clearly visible on his right hip.  They then handcuffed him.

The footage and photos "show a handgun on the {driver side} floor of the car."

See also here: Footage shows similarities, contrast between Chase, Diane Allan's Farmington traffic stops

On 4/1/2023 at 3:18 PM, 3DOP said:

I have sympathy for the young man, as I do anybody, but especially young people with courage for their convictions.

I also have sympathy for him, in the same way I do for other people who inflict harm upon themselves through poor choices.

I also have sympathy for his mother, who may well feel somewhat responsible for the death of her son - and justifiably so.

I also have sympathy for the law enforcement officers who were forced to resort to lethal force because of Mr. Allan's poor choices.

On 4/1/2023 at 3:18 PM, 3DOP said:

Of course he would be alive if his asocial behavior was wasting too much time with video games and social media. I don't know though which makes the better person. Both need to make changes in their lives. But I find myself thinking that if he could have tried living this ideology practically for a few more adult years, he might have found a nice girl in his church, whose parents he liked, and who explained his church's teaching to him.

I think if he had not been armed, this would not have happened.

Or if he had been armed, but cooperated, this would not have happened.

Or if he had been armed, not cooperated, but notified the officers that he was armed, this would not have happened.

The ideology was likely why he was armed, why he did not cooperate, why he did not notify the officers he was armed, and (possibly) why he went for his gun when the police opened the door.

On 4/1/2023 at 3:18 PM, 3DOP said:

Disillusionment with practical problems of an ideology...not to mention love, could make a young man question his mother's indoctrination.

I have known plenty of people who were born to good parents, but which parents later adopt some form of extremism.  It was the extremism + being armed + poor choices that created the circumstances here.

On 4/1/2023 at 3:18 PM, 3DOP said:

It IS more challenging to make a living in most of this country without a social security card and a driver's license. I think the deceased would have been a better prospective father and husband for this nice girl, than the boys who were filling their heads with nothing, while he was tangled up in a false notion of freedom in society. I liked him. May he rest in peace.

Very sad.

3DOP 

I think I would have liked him too.

I think too many of us are playing with fire when it comes to adopting extremist ideologies.  The SovCit folks are far from alone in that regard.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

8 hours ago, smac97 said:

Or if he had been armed, not cooperated, but notified the officers that he was armed, this would not have happened.

What would have been different?

[smac97]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

What would have been different?

Here is my thinking on that:

1. Utah is a "constitutional carry" state, meaning that it is legal to carry a fully loaded firearm, visible or concealed, without a concealed firearm permit.  I think the foregoing heavily influences how police are trained to handle traffic stops.

2. In Utah, "{t}here is no legal requirement to notify a law enforcement officer you are carrying a firearm or if you have a firearm in your vehicle, home or anywhere else."  From the Utah Department of Public Safety:

Quote

If I get stopped by a police officer, do I, as a permit holder, have to tell the officer that I have a gun in my possession?

Although there is no legal requirement to identify yourself to a law enforcement officer, it is recommended to do so.

If an officer finds or sees a gun on your person during their contact with you, and you have not identified yourself as a permit holder in legal possession of a firearm, the officer may assume you are carrying the gun illegally and may take defensive action. For the safety of all involved, it is recommended to immediately identify yourself to the officer as a permit holder in possession of a handgun. This action gives the officer some assurance they are most likely dealing with a law abiding citizen.

3. Given the foregoing considerations, common sense would dictate that

• if you are going to be driving around without a license plate, you have a higher chance of being pulled over by law enforcement;
• if you subscribe to SovCit ideology, and therefore intend to be verbally confrontational with the police officer (as Mr. Allan was intending to be), this will "escalate" the officer's situational awareness and defensive posture;
• if you are going to only lower your window when conversing the the officer (and the windows seemed to be tinted), this will "escalate" the officer's situational awareness and defensive posture;
• if you are going to refuse to lower your window any further at the request of the officer, this will "escalate" the officer's situational awareness and defensive posture;
• if you are persist in refusing to follow lawful orders from the officer after having done the foregoing things, this will "escalate" the officer's situational awareness and defensive posture;
• if you are armed, carrying your weapon in a holster on your right hip (out of view of the officer until the last possible moment), and if you have done the foregoing things and have still not told the officer you are armed, you have greatly increased the risk of deadly force being used;
• if you persist in doing the above things while being surrounded by at least four armed police officers, this will "escalate" the officers' situational awareness and defensive posture; and
• if you armed as described above, and if you have still not told the police you are armed, and if you shift your hips forward on the seat and reach for your weapon (as the weapon was found on the driver's side floor of the car, not secured in the holster), you have almost guaranteed the use of deadly force.

There are 22 "No Duty to Inform" states (and as noted above, one of them is Utah), 15 "Duty to Inform If Asked" states, 11 "Duty to Inform" states, and three "other" states (Maine and North Dakota condition the duty to inform on having a CCW permit, and in California the local governments each have their own rules.

Carrying a weapon is a serious business.  Mr. Allan handled the situation in some of the worst ways possible.

I anticipate that the police officers will be cleared.  I have sympathy for them.  The main officer who conversed with Mr. Allan was a consummate professional, and gave him every reasonable accommodation and opportunity to cooperate.

Thanks,

-Smac

[LoudmouthMormon]

17 minutes ago, smac97 said:

• if you are going to only lower your window when conversing the the officer (and the windows seemed to be tinted), this will "escalate" the officer's situational awareness and defensive posture;
• if you are going to refuse to lower your window any further at the request of the officer, this will "escalate" the officer's situational awareness and defensive posture;

The whole "refuse to lower your window" thing springs from 1st amendment zealots who advocate and practice actively asserting constitutional rights.  The thinking is something to the tune of "cops are trained to pull you over first and find laws broken second, and that's wrong, so when they want you to lower your window they're just wanting to smell the air for alcohol or weed and if you lower your window you're allowing them to conduct a warrantless search which is a violation of rights, so assert your rights and keep the window up."   In the age of outrage driving clicks, 1a activists get a lot of play on social media.  Lots of people like to to see a "tyrant cop put in his place by a random innocent citizen asserting his constitutional rights to privacy and protection from groundless searches".

Not every SovCit is a 1A zealot and vice-versa, but there's a lot of overlap.

Edited April 4, 2023 by LoudmouthMormon