The Limits Under Which Church Leadership Can Unilaterally Act.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I am reluctant to post short or long posts, if at all, due to recent health difficulties. However, other than my brother’s funeral, and fulfilling the my family’s request that I both speak and conduct the entire program, I have been bedridden for over two weeks now. In my boredom, and chronic pan, I have spent a lot of time reading news articles, and watching many podcasts of “Mormon Stories”, where most believe that General Authorities can do as they please. 
 

Of course, most are no longer members, or those who have never believed. As such, they seem to believe that Church Leadership, can ignore Scripture, and make any change, despite countless warnings given in the Word of God. Only one question, and comment, also will will only ask for anyone who can, or will contribute to discussion on this topic. Not the many topics that many groups may wish were listed, but only the question of total freedom to violate the written Word of God. 
 

My position is clear, if the leaders of “The Church”, can make any change they like, irregardless of the commandments of God, then we can be led astray by the Prophets.
 

Thanks for any who will respond. God bless you all.  

[teddyaware]

36 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I am reluctant to post short or long posts, if at all, due to recent health difficulties. However, other than my brother’s funeral, and fulfilling the my family’s request that I both speak and conduct the entire program, I have been bedridden for over two weeks now. In my boredom, and chronic pan, I have spent a lot of time reading news articles, and watching many podcasts of “Mormon Stories”, where most believe that General Authorities can do as they please. 
 

Of course, most are no longer members, or those who have never believed. As such, they seem to believe that Church Leadership, can ignore Scripture, and make any change, despite countless warnings given in the Word of God. Only one question, and comment, also will will only ask for anyone who can, or will contribute to discussion on this topic. Not the many topics that many groups may wish were listed, but only the question of total freedom to violate the written Word of God. 
 

My position is clear, if the leaders of “The Church”, can make any change they like, irregardless of the commandments of God, then we can be led astray by the Prophets.
 

Thanks for any who will respond. God bless you all.  

Please provide two or three specific examples that the Mormon Stories podcast pointed to as examples of the Church leaders violating the written word of God?

Edited December 2, 2022 by teddyaware

[pondering]

Sorry to hear you are in pain, why spend time listening to MoStor 's?

 

I suppose the NT is filled with accounts of the original apostles making mistakes.  Couldn't heal, couldn't walk on water, could not stay awake, betrayed Jesus.  

 

Paul/Saul... Saul was sooo sure he was being led by god... so many are sooo sure they are led by god.

[Tacenda]

That's what living prophets were for I thought, if we didn't then yes it would be stick to the book, in some religions not all. But I am sure glad that isn't so, or the world would be up a creek. I don't believe the whole Bible is God breathed. Thank goodness! I'm glad you're still posting Papa! I'm sorry you've been down in bed, but I'm sure all the stress you've had hasn't helped and hopefully the chronic pain will subside.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

My position is clear, if the leaders of “The Church”, can make any change they like, irregardless of the commandments of God, then we can be led astray by the Prophets.

Thanks for the bout of uncontrollable facial twitching.

[CV75]

10 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I am reluctant to post short or long posts, if at all, due to recent health difficulties. However, other than my brother’s funeral, and fulfilling the my family’s request that I both speak and conduct the entire program, I have been bedridden for over two weeks now. In my boredom, and chronic pan, I have spent a lot of time reading news articles, and watching many podcasts of “Mormon Stories”, where most believe that General Authorities can do as they please. 
 

Of course, most are no longer members, or those who have never believed. As such, they seem to believe that Church Leadership, can ignore Scripture, and make any change, despite countless warnings given in the Word of God. Only one question, and comment, also will will only ask for anyone who can, or will contribute to discussion on this topic. Not the many topics that many groups may wish were listed, but only the question of total freedom to violate the written Word of God. 
 

My position is clear, if the leaders of “The Church”, can make any change they like, irregardless of the commandments of God, then we can be led astray by the Prophets.
 

Thanks for any who will respond. God bless you all.  

As a hypothetical "if/then" statement, of course. As a position, it presupposes that God will allow them to make any change they like, which is a matter of personal understanding, perspective and belief.

Personally, I believe that God allows us all, including our leaders, to make mistakes, which is not the same as being led astray (sin and rebellion) given the grace that attends our good-faith efforts to keep the commandments and covenants. Given the vast differences between mistake, sin and rebellion, it isn't worth griping about mistakes, especially others' (including leaders'), given our own fallibility and the ultimate purpose of the Lord's redemption.

PS sorry you are ailing; I would only advise to offset Mormon Stories with some quality 3 Stooges episodes.

Edited December 2, 2022 by CV75

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Thanks for the bout of uncontrollable facial twitching.

Whatever that means. You are always funny, but can you explain what you mean. I am truly at a crossroads, and need honest responses to my poorly written questions, or not. I seldom post anymore, so when I do I truly wish for honest dialog. 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

11 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Please provide two or three specific examples that the Mormon Stories podcast pointed to as examples of the Church leaders violating the written word of God?

Sorry that my thread left them out. I did so, so that we did not  end of only debating such things. I don’t think I said that “The  Church”, was doing so, I was speaking of comments of people calling for many changes. 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

 it isn't worth griping about mistakes, especially others' (including leaders'), given our own fallibility and the ultimate purpose of the Lord's redemption.

 

Is that how my thread appears to be? If so, I will delete it, right away. With an apology, also if it appears this way, my apologies. 

[HappyJackWagon]

12 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I am reluctant to post short or long posts, if at all, due to recent health difficulties. However, other than my brother’s funeral, and fulfilling the my family’s request that I both speak and conduct the entire program, I have been bedridden for over two weeks now. In my boredom, and chronic pan, I have spent a lot of time reading news articles, and watching many podcasts of “Mormon Stories”, where most believe that General Authorities can do as they please. 
 

Of course, most are no longer members, or those who have never believed. As such, they seem to believe that Church Leadership, can ignore Scripture, and make any change, despite countless warnings given in the Word of God. Only one question, and comment, also will will only ask for anyone who can, or will contribute to discussion on this topic. Not the many topics that many groups may wish were listed, but only the question of total freedom to violate the written Word of God. 
 

My position is clear, if the leaders of “The Church”, can make any change they like, irregardless of the commandments of God, then we can be led astray by the Prophets.
 

Thanks for any who will respond. God bless you all.  

Yes- it appears we can be led astray by prophets despite the official statement which accompanies Declaration 1 which claims otherwise. Evidence of such leading astray is found in the racial priesthood ban, the many doctrinal explanations given for said ban over the years, and then the removal of the ban AND the church Essay stating there is no known reason for the ban.

Quote

EXCERPTS FROM THREE ADDRESSES BY
PRESIDENT WILFORD WOODRUFF
REGARDING THE MANIFESTO

The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty.

Official Declaration 1 (churchofjesuschrist.org)

I think the draw of the gospel for many is leadership of a prophet of God who can speak the mind and will of God. That has morphed over time into a more committee-like requirement for unanimity amongst the highest quorums of the church. It is said that unanimity is a check and balance against any one person leading the church astray. Perhaps one might lead people astray (think Adam God Theory) but the full quorum never would. Yet we still have the racial ban and the lengthy period of time required before unanimity could be achieved.

Elder Bednar is reported to have once said "I am scripture."

Quote

In a recent meeting Elder Bednar was supposedly asked a question by a sister missionary about women and the priesthood. He’s said to have given his own thoughts about the subject and when he concluded, the sister asked a follow up question.  “Are there any scriptures that talk about this subject?” Elder Bednar responded, “I am scripture.”

Now in fairness to Elder Bednar, I’ve heard this account from two different sources both in attendance at this meeting, and thus I relate the story relying upon second hand information.  If any readers have also heard this same story, please correct or confirm the details.

My first reaction to such a statement is not good.  Yet I fully understand as an LDS person raised in the church, that Elder Bednar is only stating what we teach.  “When a ‘prophet’ speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost, it is scripture.”  Elder Bednar obviously considers himself a prophet and many of us sustain him in that calling.

But, we are also taught that “when any person speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost, it is scripture.”

So why give more credence to the words of Elder Bednar than say… someone else claiming to speak by the Holy Ghost?  The standard LDS answer is “because God’s house is a house of order and that’s why keys are so important.  Whoever has the keys AND speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost is who you listen to.”

“I Am Scripture” | ANONYMOUS BISHOP

PS- I hope you feel better soon.

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by HappyJackWagon

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

11 hours ago, Tacenda said:

That's what living prophets were for I thought, if we didn't then yes it would be stick to the book, in some religions not all. But I am sure glad that isn't so, or the world would be up a creek. I don't believe the whole Bible is God breathed. Thank goodness! I'm glad you're still posting Papa! I'm sorry you've been down in bed, but I'm sure all the stress you've had hasn't helped and hopefully the chronic pain will subside.

I rejoice at continuing revelation, I am speaking of rejecting (even a little) any part of things like the Ten Commandments, or other New Testament commandments. 

[PacMan]

12 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I am reluctant to post short or long posts, if at all, due to recent health difficulties. However, other than my brother’s funeral, and fulfilling the my family’s request that I both speak and conduct the entire program, I have been bedridden for over two weeks now. In my boredom, and chronic pan, I have spent a lot of time reading news articles, and watching many podcasts of “Mormon Stories”, where most believe that General Authorities can do as they please. 
 

Of course, most are no longer members, or those who have never believed. As such, they seem to believe that Church Leadership, can ignore Scripture, and make any change, despite countless warnings given in the Word of God. Only one question, and comment, also will will only ask for anyone who can, or will contribute to discussion on this topic. Not the many topics that many groups may wish were listed, but only the question of total freedom to violate the written Word of God. 
 

My position is clear, if the leaders of “The Church”, can make any change they like, irregardless of the commandments of God, then we can be led astray by the Prophets.
 

Thanks for any who will respond. God bless you all.  

Question 1: What is the purpose of scripture?

Question 2: Where do the commandment of God come from?  Who is authorized to actually write them down?

Question 3: In Act 10, when Peter received the revelation to allow Cornelius into the church, was he acting in disregard of the commandment of God?  Better yet, did the angel act in disregard of the commandment of God?

I'd also note that most of the faithless wonders at Mormon Stories don't believe in the commandments of God one way or the other.  They are disingenuously complaining about changes in commandments that they don't believe in anyway.

[CV75]

34 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Is that how my thread appears to be? If so, I will delete it, right away. With an apology, also if it appears this way, my apologies. 

No, it does not appear to be that way. It appears to be asking for thoughts on your statement, "My position is clear, if the leaders of “The Church”, can make any change they like, irregardless of the commandments of God, then we can be led astray by the Prophets." My post is an attempt to contribute to discussion on this topic.

[CV75]

49 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Whatever that means. You are always funny, but can you explain what you mean. I am truly at a crossroads, and need honest responses to my poorly written questions, or not. I seldom post anymore, so when I do I truly wish for honest dialog. 

What is the crossroads you are standing at?

[PacMan]

34 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Yes- it appears we can be led astray by prophets despite the official statement which accompanies Declaration 1 which claims otherwise. Evidence of such leading astray is found in the racial priesthood ban, the many doctrinal explanations given for said ban over the years, and then the removal of the ban AND the church Essay stating there is no known reason for the ban.

I think the draw of the gospel for many is leadership of a prophet of God who can speak the mind and will of God. That has morphed over time into a more committee-like requirement for unanimity amongst the highest quorums of the church. It is said that unanimity is a check and balance against any one person leading the church astray. Perhaps one might lead people astray (think Adam God Theory) but the full quorum never would. Yet we still have the racial ban and the lengthy period of time required before unanimity could be achieved.

Elder Bednar is reported to have once said "I am scripture."

PS- I hope you feel better soon.

 

You've got a lot of problems here.  What does it mean to be led astray?  How did the non-priesthood ban (see Elijah Able, etc.) constitute being led astray?  And, what was the remedy?  How did the Adam God theory lead anyone astray?  How did this theory lead to anyone losing their salvation (except for complaining apostates, of course).  And this committee-like approach....D&C 107:27, isn't a morph at all, is it?

[Tacenda]

48 minutes ago, PacMan said:

Question 1: What is the purpose of scripture?

Question 2: Where do the commandment of God come from?  Who is authorized to actually write them down?

Question 3: In Act 10, when Peter received the revelation to allow Cornelius into the church, was he acting in disregard of the commandment of God?  Better yet, did the angel act in disregard of the commandment of God?

I'd also note that most of the faithless wonders at Mormon Stories don't believe in the commandments of God one way or the other.  They are disingenuously complaining about changes in commandments that they don't believe in anyway.

Which commandments, I'm not sure what exactly MOSTORIES is saying in these podcasts that Papa is referring to. 

[HappyJackWagon]

2 minutes ago, PacMan said:

You've got a lot of problems here.  What does it mean to be led astray?  How did the non-priesthood ban (see Elijah Able, etc.) constitute being led astray?  And, what was the remedy?  How did the Adam God theory lead anyone astray?  How did this theory lead to anyone losing their salvation (except for complaining apostates, of course).  And this committee-like approach....D&C 107:27, isn't a morph at all, is it?

I agree. Lots of problems here. But they're not mine.

Quote

Lead astray- admittedly, different people may define what it means to be "led astray" differently OR have a higher tolerance for being led astray. Meaning that some incorrect teachings may be viewed by some as insignificant or non-salvific. For example, you cite one black man who received the priesthood as some kind of proof that the church wasn't led astray in regard to race and priesthood when it is very clear that the entire race was restricted from holding the priesthood or temple attendance for well over 100 years. Like I say, some may have a higher tolerance for this kind of thing. What is the remedy? This seems obvious. Rescinding the ban was a huge part of the remedy. Recent teachings that the ban may have been instituted based on racist views of the day, and are therefore non-doctrinal, is another remedy although I believe that could be more clearly taught.

How did Adam God theory lead anyone astray. We worship God. If God is mis-identified then it may lead people to incorrectly worship the deity they suppose to be worshipping. Again, some may have a higher tolerance for this. The Lectures on Faith clearly taught that knowing the true nature of God is necessary in worshiping the true God. I suspect God will understand and reward the intentions of his children's hearts and not hold it against them that this incorrect teaching existed in the church. But it doesn't change the fact that this incorrect teaching existed.

How did anyone lose their salvation? Impossible to say since I don't know who has received or will receive salvation with any kind of certainty. However, even you allow for a large exception when you say "except for"...but I assume those individuals don't matter much

Committee like approach- Joseph Smith did not require unanimity of the Q12 in his prophetic statements or leadership. Neither did Brigham. IIRC the committee-like approach you are referencing in D&C is referring to statements made by the quorum of 70 and Q12. I am not aware of any requirement that THE prophet only make statements via these quorums. IMO the church structure has morphed into that. But I could be wrong. Do you believe that everything from the D&C has been followed uniformly throughout the administration of the church?

Perhaps you would rather discuss other teachings where the church may have been led astray. Such topics could include blood atonement and polygamy, among others.

[pogi]

14 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I am reluctant to post short or long posts, if at all, due to recent health difficulties. However, other than my brother’s funeral, and fulfilling the my family’s request that I both speak and conduct the entire program, I have been bedridden for over two weeks now. In my boredom, and chronic pan, I have spent a lot of time reading news articles, and watching many podcasts of “Mormon Stories”, where most believe that General Authorities can do as they please. 
 

Of course, most are no longer members, or those who have never believed. As such, they seem to believe that Church Leadership, can ignore Scripture, and make any change, despite countless warnings given in the Word of God. Only one question, and comment, also will will only ask for anyone who can, or will contribute to discussion on this topic. Not the many topics that many groups may wish were listed, but only the question of total freedom to violate the written Word of God. 
 

My position is clear, if the leaders of “The Church”, can make any change they like, irregardless of the commandments of God, then we can be led astray by the Prophets.
 

Thanks for any who will respond. God bless you all.  

I think the scriptures leave a LOT of wiggle room for interpretation.  It also should not be perceived as a blueprint for everything.  There is much left unsaid in the scriptures that we have to figure out ourselves.  That leaves our leaders with almost boundless possibilities for direction.  Tradition (as much as we don't think we are tied to it) is more of an anchor than just about anything, I think.

While it is taught that our prophets will never go contrary to scripture, it is clear that there is much that we do in our church that is contrary to the Bible - including letting women pray and teach at church.   We are also taught that our prophet is the only one with authority to interpret scripture for the church.  So really, there is very little that is set in stone in the scriptures that can't be reimagined or further enlightened upon by our leaders. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Whatever that means. You are always funny, but can you explain what you mean. I am truly at a crossroads, and need honest responses to my poorly written questions, or not. I seldom post anymore, so when I do I truly wish for honest dialog. 

Irregardless shouldn’t be a word. It sort of is a word now but I have a strong conviction that it should not be. You didn’t do anything wrong but seeing that word makes me wince. It is what I get for being an English language nerd.

It is like saying: “I could care less.”

[PacMan]

24 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I agree. Lots of problems here. But they're not mine.

Lead astray- admittedly, different people may define what it means to be "led astray" differently OR have a higher tolerance for being led astray. Meaning that some incorrect teachings may be viewed by some as insignificant or non-salvific. For example, you cite one black man who received the priesthood as some kind of proof that the church wasn't led astray in regard to race and priesthood when it is very clear that the entire race was restricted from holding the priesthood or temple attendance for well over 100 years. Like I say, some may have a higher tolerance for this kind of thing. What is the remedy? This seems obvious. Rescinding the ban was a huge part of the remedy. Recent teachings that the ban may have been instituted based on racist views of the day, and are therefore non-doctrinal, is another remedy although I believe that could be more clearly taught.

How did Adam God theory lead anyone astray. We worship God. If God is mis-identified then it may lead people to incorrectly worship the deity they suppose to be worshipping. Again, some may have a higher tolerance for this. The Lectures on Faith clearly taught that knowing the true nature of God is necessary in worshiping the true God. I suspect God will understand and reward the intentions of his children's hearts and not hold it against them that this incorrect teaching existed in the church. But it doesn't change the fact that this incorrect teaching existed.

How did anyone lose their salvation? Impossible to say since I don't know who has received or will receive salvation with any kind of certainty. However, even you allow for a large exception when you say "except for"...but I assume those individuals don't matter much

Committee like approach- Joseph Smith did not require unanimity of the Q12 in his prophetic statements or leadership. Neither did Brigham. IIRC the committee-like approach you are referencing in D&C is referring to statements made by the quorum of 70 and Q12. I am not aware of any requirement that THE prophet only make statements via these quorums. IMO the church structure has morphed into that. But I could be wrong. Do you believe that everything from the D&C has been followed uniformly throughout the administration of the church?

Perhaps you would rather discuss other teachings where the church may have been led astray. Such topics could include blood atonement and polygamy, among others.

And, that's my point.  The correct path is fulfilling the conditions to receive the full blessings of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.  I am not insensitive the realities of the so-called "priesthood ban" (which is not an accurate and and more complex).  The practice certainly had real implications for real people.  The question is, in the eternal scheme of themes, mistakes, warts, and all, what injustice will not be made right?  The "correct pay" never changed.  And all the obscure doctrines that (purportedly) were taught by Brigham Young didn't change the "correct path" either.

Be sure, the apostate exceptions do matter.  But their apostasy wasn't about an obscure doctrine (that in 99.999% of the time never affected them anyway).  It's removing themselves from the correct path.

[HappyJackWagon]

When the answer is, "God will work it all out in the next life" then nothing is really a problem. Right?

[PacMan]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

When the answer is, "God will work it all out in the next life" then nothing is really a problem. Right?

If you don't keep your covenants, then there's not much He can do if you're unwilling to repent.  Keep your covenants, and yes, it will all work out.  Obscure doctrines have nothing to do with making and keeping covenants.

Edited December 2, 2022 by PacMan

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Sorry that my thread left them out. I did so, so that we did not  end of only debating such things. I don’t think I said that “The  Church”, was doing so, I was speaking of comments of people calling for many changes. 

In your opening statement, you seem to be open to the possibility that the Church leaders have been disobeying the written word of God. It also appears likely that this idea was planted in your mind by watching the Mormon Stories podcasts. In light of this, it would be helpful if you could provide at least one example from the Mormon Stories podcast as to precisely how the General Authorities have defied the written word of God? 

Edited December 2, 2022 by teddyaware

[pogi]

30 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

In your opening statement, you seem to be open to the possibility that the Church leaders have been disobeying the written word of God. It also appears likely that this idea was planted in your mind by the watching Mormon Stories podcasts. In light of this, it would be helpful if you could provide at least one example from the Mormon Stories podcast as to precisely how the General Authorities have defied the written word of God? 

I gave one.  They let women pray and teach in church.   That is contrary to the teachings of the Bible.   You speak of the "written word of God" as some absolute and objective authority and guide, but it is rather malleable actually.   We can simply dismiss parts as uninspired if we wish (like Joseph did with Songs of Solomon, and like we do today with women praying in church), or we can simply interpret things in a new way, like we did with blacks and the priesthood.  We used the Bible to justify the ban, and later chose to interpret it differently to remove the ban.  You see, there is very little solid ground that can't be interpreted differently, dismissed as uninspired, or expounded upon to give further light and meaning. 

Edited December 2, 2022 by pogi

[HappyJackWagon]

29 minutes ago, PacMan said:

If you don't keep your covenants, then there's not much He can do if you're unwilling to repent.  Keep your covenants, and yes, it will all work out.  Obscure doctrines have nothing to do with making and keeping covenants.

And for the generation of black peopled denied priesthood, temple, and in many cases baptism...?