The Pre-Mortal Existance Refutes the Assertion that Intelligence is Genetically Determined.

[dougtheavenger]

In the pre-mortal existence we engaged in intellectual thought; possibly of a very complex nature. We had intelligence and the level of intelligence varied from one spirit to another. We did not have genes or hormones. Ergo intelligence cannot be genetically determined and morallity cannot be determined by hormones.

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, dougtheavenger said:

In the pre-mortal existence we engaged in intellectual thought; possibly of a very complex nature. We had intelligence and the level of intelligence varied from one spirit to another. We did not have genes or hormones. Ergo intelligence cannot be genetically determined and morallity cannot be determined by hormones.

Wouldn’t someone have to prove that the scriptures used the word “intelligence” in the same way we use it now?

[CV75]

17 minutes ago, dougtheavenger said:

In the pre-mortal existence we engaged in intellectual thought; possibly of a very complex nature. We had intelligence and the level of intelligence varied from one spirit to another. We did not have genes or hormones. Ergo intelligence cannot be genetically determined and morallity cannot be determined by hormones.

But the expression of this kind of spiritual intelligence in the flesh can be impeded by genes, hormones, injury, illness and countless other elements faced in the mortal world. The benefit of societies is for individuals and groups to mutually benefit from that expressed intelligence that is not impeded, or at least less impeded.

[dougtheavenger]

Jesus created the Earth under the direction of God the Father.

To me this implies  our Heavenly Father wrote the functional designs and Jesus wrote the Technical Designs.

[dougtheavenger]

31 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Wouldn’t someone have to prove that the scriptures used the word “intelligence” in the same way we use it now?

Abraham 3:

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

[dougtheavenger]

23 minutes ago, CV75 said:

But the expression of this kind of spiritual intelligence in the flesh can be impeded by genes, hormones, injury, illness and countless other elements faced in the mortal world. The benefit of societies is for individuals and groups to mutually benefit from that expressed intelligence that is not impeded, or at least less impeded.

The brain is just a filter. Drinking a quart of beer alters the filter and alters perception 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, dougtheavenger said:

Abraham 3:

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

Right.  The question is, does the word intelligent here (or in other scriptures when they talk about intelligences) mean what we typically mean when we use the word today?  Often when we talk about intelligence or someone being intelligent we mean that they are smart or have a high IQ.  

Is that what the scriptures mean when they use those terms?  I don't know that they do.  Defining those terms would seem to be an important part of a discussion like this.

[manol]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

But the expression of this kind of spiritual intelligence in the flesh can be impeded by genes, hormones, injury, illness and countless other elements faced in the mortal world.

YES!!

And those impediments (like everything else!) are for our good: 

"I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them." (Ether 12:27)

"all these things shall give thee experience and shall be for thy good." (D&C 122:7)

I subscribe to the school of thought that says Earth is (among other things) a gymnasium where we come to increase our strength in ways we could not otherwise.  So for all I know, those who are struggling under heavier weights and greater challenges than mine are the more valiant despite any outward appearance to the contrary. 

I cannot speak for anyone else, but consider myself to be in NO POSITION to judge and condemn any person because I do not know what weakness or other challenges they and/or God decided would be of most benefit to them during their Earth life. 

Edited November 20, 2022 by manol

[carbon dioxide]

5 hours ago, dougtheavenger said:

In the pre-mortal existence we engaged in intellectual thought; possibly of a very complex nature. We had intelligence and the level of intelligence varied from one spirit to another. We did not have genes or hormones. Ergo intelligence cannot be genetically determined and morallity cannot be determined by hormones.

I view our current state like a computer.  There is the hardware and software aspect.   Our physical bodies are the hardware and our spirits are the software.  In our current situation, we are very much limited by our hardware and it has much influence on the software.  Our intelligence and morality is not determined by our genes and biology but it is restricted or limited by it

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Right.  The question is, does the word intelligent here (or in other scriptures when they talk about intelligences) mean what we typically mean when we use the word today?  Often when we talk about intelligence or someone being intelligent we mean that they are smart or have a high IQ.  

Is that what the scriptures mean when they use those terms?  I don't know that they do.  Defining those terms would seem to be an important part of a discussion like this.

I think in this case it refers to the possession of light and truth - the scriptural definition of intelligence. I think if you have more truth then you probably have more understanding.  Isn't that pretty close to "smart"?

After all "“A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge."

In the eternal scheme if we can pass from this estate to the next with different levels of knowledge then as Abraham said it makes sense that we passed from our first estate to here with different amounts of intelligence (light and truth).

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, dougtheavenger said:

In the pre-mortal existence we engaged in intellectual thought; possibly of a very complex nature. We had intelligence and the level of intelligence varied from one spirit to another. We did not have genes or hormones. Ergo intelligence cannot be genetically determined and morallity cannot be determined by hormones.

I don't agree.  You don't think our physical bodies are created based upon our premortal existence?  That's exactly how our immortal bodies will be created.

There's no reason these need be mutually exclusive.

[Meadowchik]

I would be careful about dismissing what we scientifically know about our bodies and brains. The brain is not just a filter for example. Imo revelation is supposed to supplement what we know by other means, not replace it.

The revelation about preexistence is so limited, I would tread carefully especially when trying to deduce too much from it.

[dougtheavenger]

9 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

I view our current state like a computer.  There is the hardware and software aspect.   Our physical bodies are the hardware and our spirits are the software.  In our current situation, we are very much limited by our hardware and it has much influence on the software.  Our intelligence and morality is not determined by our genes and biology but it is restricted or limited by it

OK. The hardware can limit the speed of processing or even duration while the software determines the logic and precepts. Hardware can overheat, break down from continuous prolonged functioning but the Holy Ghost can correct faulty software or faulty hardware. An autistic person may have faulty hardware that does not filter or process incoming stimuli properly, but the logic of that person may be perfect given the information they are presented with.

Edited November 20, 2022 by dougtheavenger

[CV75]

13 hours ago, dougtheavenger said:

The brain is just a filter. Drinking a quart of beer alters the filter and alters perception 

Enjoy!

[CV75]

10 hours ago, manol said:

YES!!

And those impediments (like everything else!) are for our good: 

"I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them." (Ether 12:27)

"all these things shall give thee experience and shall be for thy good." (D&C 122:7)

I subscribe to the school of thought that says Earth is (among other things) a gymnasium where we come to increase our strength in ways we could not otherwise.  So for all I know, those who are struggling under heavier weights and greater challenges than mine are the more valiant despite any outward appearance to the contrary. 

I cannot speak for anyone else, but consider myself to be in NO POSITION to judge and condemn any person because I do not know what weakness or other challenges they and/or God decided would be of most benefit to them during their Earth life. 

For increasing strength: Grace (churchofjesuschrist.org)

[CV75]

13 hours ago, dougtheavenger said:

Abraham 3:

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

And as long as they are connected with element, they become something else, a soul, with attributes that differ from intelligence, spirit and element alone. Neither filters the other; they are one.

Edited November 20, 2022 by CV75

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I think in this case it refers to the possession of light and truth - the scriptural definition of intelligence. I think if you have more truth then you probably have more understanding.  

That could be.  If so we could consider how some intelligences were able to possess more light and truth than others, before they became spirit sons and daughters of God.

[dougtheavenger]

14 hours ago, dougtheavenger said:

In the pre-mortal existence we engaged in intellectual thought; possibly of a very complex nature. We had intelligence and the level of intelligence varied from one spirit to another. We did not have genes or hormones. Ergo intelligence cannot be genetically determined and morallity cannot be determined by hormones.

After being being baptized into the Church at the age of 20 and being a member for several weeks, I had occasion to undergo repentance. Shortly afterward, I was taken by surprise when an overwhelming feeling of love and joy came over me. Was this direct contact with reality, spirit to spirit, or was it an influence from the Holy Ghost that went through processing by my brain-filter which involved the excretion of chemicals in the brain? I will never know. But it is certain that this experience came from the outside and provided a testimony of God and the gospel. On another occasion while studying for a course in college, I think it was discrete mathematics, I felt joy in my heart. It later came to me that the best definition of intelligence was the pursuit of joy; not to be confused with the pursuit of pleasure. Don't get me wrong. I'm not anti-pleasure, but joy is on another level.

[Eschaton]

14 hours ago, dougtheavenger said:

In the pre-mortal existence we engaged in intellectual thought; possibly of a very complex nature. We had intelligence and the level of intelligence varied from one spirit to another. We did not have genes or hormones. Ergo intelligence cannot be genetically determined and morallity cannot be determined by hormones.

Wouldn't you need to demonstrate that the pre-mortal existence really exists in order to use it to refute anything else? 

[CV75]

33 minutes ago, dougtheavenger said:

After being being baptized into the Church at the age of 20 and being a member for several weeks, I had occasion to undergo repentance. Shortly afterward, I was taken by surprise when an overwhelming feeling of love and joy came over me. Was this direct contact with reality, spirit to spirit, or was it an influence from the Holy Ghost that went through processing by my brain-filter which involved the excretion of chemicals in the brain? I will never know. But it is certain that this experience came from the outside and provided a testimony of God and the gospel. On another occasion while studying for a course in college, I think it was discrete mathematics, I felt joy in my heart. It later came to me that the best definition of intelligence was the pursuit of joy; not to be confused with the pursuit of pleasure. Don't get me wrong. I'm not anti-pleasure, but joy is on another level.

I'll suggest it was spirit-to-spirit concert (and in coordination) in concert with your brain. You would not have had it if you (a person, which is fundamentally a spirit -- D&C 93:33) were not in mortality with a brain. You would not have had it if God was not inseparably connected spirit and element in concert with the Holy ghost.

[CV75]

40 minutes ago, Eschaton said:

Wouldn't you need to demonstrate that the pre-mortal existence really exists in order to use it to refute anything else? 

Not in principle or for the sake of religious discussion.

[mfbukowski]

16 hours ago, CV75 said:

But the expression of this kind of spiritual intelligence in the flesh can be impeded by genes, hormones, injury, illness and countless other elements faced in the mortal world. The benefit of societies is for individuals and groups to mutually benefit from that expressed intelligence that is not impeded, or at least less impeded.

Yep.

The very thought makes reason stare.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, dougtheavenger said:

Was this direct contact with reality, spirit to spirit, or was it an influence from the Holy Ghost that went through processing by my brain-filter which involved the excretion of chemicals in the brain? I

Same thing.

God is qualia just like everything else we know.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

Edited November 20, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

2 hours ago, dougtheavenger said:

On another occasion while studying for a course in college, I think it was discrete mathematics, I felt joy in my heart. It later came to me that the best definition of intelligence was the pursuit of joy; not to be confused with the pursuit of pleasure. Don't get me wrong. I'm not anti-pleasure, but joy is on another level.

Been there…definitely agree with you.

[Eschaton]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

Not in principle or for the sake of religious discussion.

I don't see how. This is what refute means:

"prove (a statement or theory) to be wrong or false; disprove."

How can you disprove an assertion with another assertion?