Navidad Posted October 17, 2022 Posted October 17, 2022 Today in our Sunday School class we were studying the book of Jeremiah. When discussing Jeremiah 2:13-"For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water," one of our elder, most influential ward members raised his hand and said that the fountain of living waters refers to the living prophets of the LDS church and the broken cisterns that can hold no water refers to the Bible. I found this to be a remarkable statement. My wife thought it highly offensive. So, I bring it here to you all - does the LDS church teach that the living waters referred to in Jer 2:13 refers to living prophets such as the current group of 15 men and the broken cisterns that can hold no water refers to the Bible? The teacher of our class, who seems very knowledgeable of LDS doctrine, immediately agreed with the man's comments. I have thought that the Bible is accepted as a co-equal Scripture in the LDS world with the BOM, the POGP, and the D&C. Is the Bible thought of as "less than"? I doubt very much that my LDS friends would find the BOM to be a broken cistern that can hold no water. Is this just one man's opinion, or does it stem from some teaching in the church? Inquiring minds need to know. Thanks so much.
Calm Posted October 17, 2022 Posted October 17, 2022 (edited) I don’t think I have ever heard the interpretation that broken cisterns refers to the Bible. From what I am reading, unless he was just unclear about what he really meant, my guess is he is teaching his own pet idea or maybe something picked up and adapted from an early leader, but most respected the Bible from what I have seen even if they didn’t view it as perfect. His claim is in conflict with actual teachings, imo. This is the typical teaching I remember: Quote As at Jacob’s well, so today the Lord Jesus Christ is the only source of living water. It will quench the thirst of those suffering from the drought of divine truth that so afflicts the world. The words of the Lord to ancient Israel spoken by the prophet Jeremiah describe the condition of many of God’s children in our own day: “My people … have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out … broken cisterns, that can hold no water.”15 Too many of our Heavenly Father’s children spend their precious lives carving out broken cisterns of worldly gain that cannot hold the living water that satisfies fully their natural thirst for everlasting truth. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1995/04/living-water-to-quench-spiritual-thirst?lang=eng It is rather strange to condemn the Bible using a verse from the Bible. This is from a section about the importance of studying the OT. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1995/04/living-water-to-quench-spiritual-thirst?lang=eng Quote Through the prophet Jeremiah the Lord declared, “My people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water” (Jeremiah 2:13). Cisterns, as sources of reserve water supply, were extremely important to the ancients, for it was on these that they could rely to preserve themselves against the uncertainties of nature. Cisterns were carved out of rock. On occasion the rock would prove full of fissures and unable to hold water. Using this fact as a metaphor, the Lord brought two accusations against Israel. The first was their lack of trust in Him. Jehovah, as the spring of living water, could always be relied upon, but ancient Israel hewed new cisterns for themselves; that is, they turned to other sources for spiritual life and power. Second, these new cisterns could preserve the Spirit no better than a fractured cistern could hold water. Thus, Israel was like people in a drought who ignored the cistern that held sufficient reserves to help them and trusted instead in sources that could provide nothing. Also: Quote Read John 4:14, and ponder how Jesus Christ is like a “fountain of living waters” (Jeremiah 2:13). Jehovah has the power to give, sustain, and save life, both temporal and spiritual. The broken cisterns represented the false gods the Israelites had chosen to worship instead of God. What did Jehovah teach about false gods by comparing them to broken cisterns that cannot hold water? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/old-testament-study-guide-for-home-study-seminary-students-2015/introduction-to-jeremiah/unit-27-day-2-jeremiah-1-6?lang=eng Quote As recorded in Jeremiah 2:1–12, the Lord declared through Jeremiah that His people had loved Him when He had delivered them out of Egypt and given them a promised land. Now, however, the people had gone astray by worshipping idols, had “defiled [the] land” (verse 7), and had become so evil that in worshipping the false gods Baal or Molech, they sacrificed their own children by fire (see Jeremiah 7:31). Read Jeremiah 2:13, looking for “two evils” the people had committed. It may be helpful to know that the Lord referred to “cisterns,” or large containers that hold water, as a symbol of the people’s spiritual condition. Quiz 2 “The fountain of living waters” represents , and the broken cisterns represent . the Restoration; apostasy Jesus Christ; false gods an artesian well; drought According to Jeremiah 2:13, the “two evils” that the people had committed were and . oppressing the poor serving other gods forsaking the Lord A Fountain of Living Water The Guide to the Scriptures explains that “living water” is “a symbol of the Lord Jesus Christ and His teachings. As water is essential to sustain physical life, the Savior and His teachings (living water) are essential for eternal life” (“Living Water,” scriptures.lds.org). During the Savior’s mortal ministry, He met a Samaritan woman at a well and asked her for a drink of water. In His brief conversation with her, He said, “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life” (John 4:14). In what ways is Jesus Christ like a fountain of living water to you? What does He provide that is necessary for you? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/old-testament-seminary-student-material-2018/jeremiah/lesson-137?lang=eng Edited October 17, 2022 by Calm 4
Bernard Gui Posted October 17, 2022 Posted October 17, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Navidad said: Today in our Sunday School class we were studying the book of Jeremiah. When discussing Jeremiah 2:13-"For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water," one of our elder, most influential ward members raised his hand and said that the fountain of living waters refers to the living prophets of the LDS church and the broken cisterns that can hold no water refers to the Bible. I found this to be a remarkable statement. My wife thought it highly offensive. So, I bring it here to you all - does the LDS church teach that the living waters referred to in Jer 2:13 refers to living prophets such as the current group of 15 men and the broken cisterns that can hold no water refers to the Bible? The teacher of our class, who seems very knowledgeable of LDS doctrine, immediately agreed with the man's comments. I have thought that the Bible is accepted as a co-equal Scripture in the LDS world with the BOM, the POGP, and the D&C. Is the Bible thought of as "less than"? I doubt very much that my LDS friends would find the BOM to be a broken cistern that can hold no water. Is this just one man's opinion, or does it stem from some teaching in the church? Inquiring minds need to know. Thanks so much. I’ve never heard of this. I do not agree with it. It’s one (or two) men’s opinion. The fountain of living waters is the love of God (Jehovah/Jesus Christ, the true God), and the broken cisterns are false gods and idols, the worship of which was going to result in the imminent destruction of Judah. 1 Nephi 11:25 “And it came to pass that I beheld that the rod of iron, which my father had seen, was the word of God, which led to the fountain of living waters, or to the tree of life; which waters are a representation of the love of God; and I also beheld that the tree of life was a representation of the love of God.” Its interesting to me to note that Lehi and Jeremiah were contemporaries in Jerusalem and may have known each other. Jeremiah’s continual complaint is that Israel and Judah have left Jehovah’s covenant and gone after false gods: Jeremiah 2: 26“As a thief is disgraced when he is caught, so the people of Israel are disgraced—they, their kings and their officials, their priests and their prophets. 27 They say to wood, You are my father,’ and to stone, ‘You gave me birth. ‘They have turned their backs to me and not their faces; yet when they are in trouble, they say, ‘Come and save us!’ 28 Where then are the gods you made for yourselves? Let them come if they can save you when you are in trouble! For you, Judah, have as many gods as you have towns. 29 “Why do you bring charges against me? You have all rebelled against me,” declares the Lord. If there are discrepancies between the Bible and Restoration scriptures, I would give precedence to the latter. We do not believe in inerrancy: 8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God [but there are disclaimers about “the mistakes of men.”] Edited October 17, 2022 by Bernard Gui 3
mfbukowski Posted October 17, 2022 Posted October 17, 2022 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Navidad said: Today in our Sunday School class we were studying the book of Jeremiah. When discussing Jeremiah 2:13-"For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water," one of our elder, most influential ward members raised his hand and said that the fountain of living waters refers to the living prophets of the LDS church and the broken cisterns that can hold no water refers to the Bible. I found this to be a remarkable statement. My wife thought it highly offensive. So, I bring it here to you all - does the LDS church teach that the living waters referred to in Jer 2:13 refers to living prophets such as the current group of 15 men and the broken cisterns that can hold no water refers to the Bible? The teacher of our class, who seems very knowledgeable of LDS doctrine, immediately agreed with the man's comments. I have thought that the Bible is accepted as a co-equal Scripture in the LDS world with the BOM, the POGP, and the D&C. Is the Bible thought of as "less than"? I doubt very much that my LDS friends would find the BOM to be a broken cistern that can hold no water. Is this just one man's opinion, or does it stem from some teaching in the church? Inquiring minds need to know. Thanks so much. More like an open canon compared to the view that all revelation is in the Bible and done forever And yes THAT did come up today. But of course the LA temple's design emphasizes living water, with fountains outside and portrayals even in the celestial room, so maybe we are more aware of that motif Edited October 17, 2022 by mfbukowski 2
Calm Posted October 17, 2022 Posted October 17, 2022 (edited) This is the closest I have seen. I can’t copy/paste it, so will paraphrase…Jehovah is the source of living waters, the living prophets (which were the true prophets during Jeremiah’s time as well as now) are those who will be able to properly interpret his revelations while many churches (including then and now) rely on false interpretations by false leaders and teachers about the “old revelations” (scripture) and thus they are broken cisterns that cannot hold the living waters. Iow, it is “churches and institutions that are ‘broken’” cisterns. Seems more of an accusation on certain interpretations of the Bible than the Bible itself. Perhaps your class member had the same idea, but poorly explained it. It seems so contrary to our beliefs to label the Bible itself that, especially in one of the many lessons given during a two year study of it. https://books.google.com/books?id=uko3XlIoM_kC&pg=PT45&lpg=PT45&dq="broken+cisterns"+"the+bible".+"living+waters"+"living+prophets"&source=bl&ots=-a6L1x6Y9P&sig=ACfU3U2GuLkNE6PxAk3JMMHb6uCJsJsE-w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjnoq_xhub6AhX5MEQIHQ6hDU04ChDoAXoECAUQAw#v=onepage&q="broken cisterns" "the bible". "living waters" "living prophets"&f=false Edited October 17, 2022 by Calm 1
teddyaware Posted October 17, 2022 Posted October 17, 2022 25 minutes ago, Navidad said: Today in our Sunday School class we were studying the book of Jeremiah. When discussing Jeremiah 2:13-"For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water," one of our elder, most influential ward members raised his hand and said that the fountain of living waters refers to the living prophets of the LDS church and the broken cisterns that can hold no water refers to the Bible. I found this to be a remarkable statement. My wife thought it highly offensive. So, I bring it here to you all - does the LDS church teach that the living waters referred to in Jer 2:13 refers to living prophets such as the current group of 15 men and the broken cisterns that can hold no water refers to the Bible? The teacher of our class, who seems very knowledgeable of LDS doctrine, immediately agreed with the man's comments. I have thought that the Bible is accepted as a co-equal Scripture in the LDS world with the BOM, the POGP, and the D&C. Is the Bible thought of as "less than"? I doubt very much that my LDS friends would find the BOM to be a broken cistern that can hold no water. Is this just one man's opinion, or does it stem from some teaching in the church? Inquiring minds need to know. Thanks so much. Interestingly, while in this passage it’s the Lord who identifies himself as the fountain of living waters (not the prophets per se), even so the people of that day wouldn’t have heard this solemn admonition from the Lord if not for the living prophet Jeremiah. In addition, it could also be said that if some Church members today claimed to believe in the four Standard Works (which are analogous to the then Bible of Jeremiah’s day) but rejected the 15 apostles who stand at the head of the Church today, they would also end up rejecting the living waters while simultaneously claiming to believe the present scriptural canon is inspired of God. The gentleman might have prevented your perplexity if he had simply said ‘the scriptures’ rather than the Bible. I’m fairly certain that he wasn’t saying the Bible, in and of itself, is uninspired, but that without accepting and sustaining the living prophets the scriptures aren’t enough. Taking care to be extra precise in our language can avoid many misunderstandings. 1
mfbukowski Posted October 17, 2022 Posted October 17, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Calm said: This is the closest I have seen. I can’t copy/paste it, so will paraphrase…Jehovah is the source of living waters, the living prophets (which were the true prophets during Jeremiah’s time as well as now) are those who will be able to properly interpret his revelations while many churches (including then and now) rely on false interpretations by false leaders and teachers about the “old revelations” (scripture) and thus they are broken cisterns that cannot hold the living waters. Iow, it is “churches and institutions that are ‘broken’” cisterns. Seems more of an accusation on certain interpretations of the Bible than the Bible itself. Perhaps your class member had the same idea, but poorly explained it. It seems so contrary to our beliefs to label the Bible itself that, especially in one of the many lessons given during a two year study of it. https://books.google.com/books?id=uko3XlIoM_kC&pg=PT45&lpg=PT45&dq="broken+cisterns"+"the+bible".+"living+waters"+"living+prophets"&source=bl&ots=-a6L1x6Y9P&sig=ACfU3U2GuLkNE6PxAk3JMMHb6uCJsJsE-w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjnoq_xhub6AhX5MEQIHQ6hDU04ChDoAXoECAUQAw#v=onepage&q="broken cisterns" "the bible". "living waters" "living prophets"&f=false It appears that "Latter Rain" is not an LDS movement, but a Protestant group originally started by Billy Graham. Of course my "research" took me at least 40 seconds, so your opinion may vary https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latter_Rain_(post–World_War_II_movement) Edited October 17, 2022 by mfbukowski
Kenngo1969 Posted October 17, 2022 Posted October 17, 2022 35 minutes ago, JAHS said: Isn't cistern the opposite of brethren?😉 Cue rimshot! Thanks, we're a great crowd, you'll be here all week, and we should try the chicken because it's delicious, yeah? 😁
Calm Posted October 17, 2022 Posted October 17, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: It appears that "Latter Rain" is not an LDS movement, but a Protestant group originally started by Billy Graham. Of course my "research" took me at least 40 seconds, so your opinion may vary https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latter_Rain_(post–World_War_II_movement) I don’t know where he got the title from (assuming the Bible as there are several uses of the phrase though not apparently Isaiah), but he is Latter-day Saint. https://www.heraldextra.com/lifestyles/2011/jun/11/religion-briefs-latter-rain-author-signing-in-lindon/ Edited October 17, 2022 by Calm
mfbukowski Posted October 17, 2022 Posted October 17, 2022 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Calm said: I don’t know where he got the title from (assuming the Bible as there are several uses of the phrase though not apparently Isaiah), but he is Latter-day Saint. https://www.heraldextra.com/lifestyles/2011/jun/11/religion-briefs-latter-rain-author-signing-in-lindon/ Thanks, I stand corrected! I guess I should have given it a full minute! But man, that all has odd implications for this thread, but I am out of minutes for this scintillating conversation! I am not sure Navidad knows how unconventional his situation is. I have never seen anything like it in the last 43 years, in a ward or stake. It's very easy to see how this could happen. Edited October 17, 2022 by mfbukowski 1
Calm Posted October 17, 2022 Posted October 17, 2022 (edited) 46 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Thanks, I stand corrected! I guess I should have given it a full minute! But man, that all has odd implications for this thread, but I am out of minutes for this scintillating conversation! I am not sure Navidad knows how unconventional his situation is. I have never seen anything like it in the last 43 years, in a ward or stake. It's very easy to see how this could happen. I think it most likely an incomplete thought and the teacher knew what the other was talking about…it is part of the restored gospel that without living revelation from some source (prophetic or personal), it is too easy to misinterpret scripture even when scripture is inspired (even with living revelation, it can be problematic). Edited October 17, 2022 by Calm 3
Kenngo1969 Posted October 17, 2022 Posted October 17, 2022 Christ is the Source of Living Water ... period. However great and worthy of veneration anyone else might be (and, certainly, I think someone could do far worse than to draw inspiration from the life and teachings of President Russell M. Nelson or any of his colleagues in the First Presidency or in the Quorum of the Twelve), none of the latter are of any value to me whatsoever except insofar as they point me to the former. 3
mfbukowski Posted October 17, 2022 Posted October 17, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calm said: I think it most likely an incomplete thought and the teacher knew what the other was talking about…it is part of the restored gospel that without living revelation from some source (prophetic or personal), it is too easy to misinterpret scripture even when scripture is inspired (even with living revelation, it can be problematic). Yes, personal revelation must always trump ANYONE 'S writings or texts because it is the only assurance we can have against false prophecies that end up having folks drinking the kool aid. I have said that before of course. We have a congregation of folks nearby with a significant part of their "outreach" dedicated to converting LDS folks, preaching sola scriptura, meaning the bible only of course. When they come to my door the first thing I ask is how they know that the Bible is even true, and their first response is "because it says it is". That is obviously a circular argument, and I point that out, and that is the end of their argument. I show them Moroni 10:4-5, which encourages "private revelation" about the same issue, a big no-no for them. When I first read Moroni, I realized that logically personal revelation HAD TO TRUMP claims from texts, or God had never communicated with humanity. There is no other way! If he could communicate with Isaiah, why not anyone else?? Why not me? How else could ANYONE know the scriptures were "true"? 1 Cor 14 even says we are all prophets? So I can 't see how the the cistern passage interpretation would be offensive, even if it was a novel interpretation. "29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted." Edited October 17, 2022 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted October 17, 2022 Posted October 17, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said: Christ is the Source of Living Water ... period. However great and worthy of veneration anyone else might be (and, certainly, I think someone could do far worse than to draw inspiration from the life and teachings of President Russell M. Nelson or any of his colleagues in the First Presidency or in the Quorum of the Twelve), none of the latter are of any value to me whatsoever except insofar as they point me to the former. A world renowned heart surgeon and now a Prophet ( as opposed to prophet) for the entire church and world. Wow. Just wow. Edited October 17, 2022 by mfbukowski
Hamba Tuhan Posted October 17, 2022 Posted October 17, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, Navidad said: Does the LDS church teach that ... the broken cisterns that can hold no water refers to the Bible? Well done. After years of associating with and worshipping alongside us, you finally figured out our deep, dark secret: despite reading, preaching from, quoting, filming, freely distributing, and formally studying the Bible two years out of every four, we actually don't like it very much ... if at all. Our seeming love for the Bible is all just an elaborate conspiracy to fool people into thinking otherwise. Unfortunately, we cannot let the truth get out. I expect a band of Danites will arrive shortly. It's been nice knowing you! Edited October 17, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan 3
Hamba Tuhan Posted October 17, 2022 Posted October 17, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: When they come to my door the first thing I ask is how they know that the Bible is even true, and their first response is "because it says it is". When I was a fulltime missionary in America, one Saturday morning a carful of evangelists from another church pulled over next to us in the road and began asking us questions. The driver finally asked, 'Will you accept that you are wrong if I can show it to you in the Bible?' I responded: 'Do your interpretations of the Bible agree with what a Catholic priest, Methodist preacher, or Baptist minister might say? And if not, aren't you worried that one of them might be more eloquent than you and convince me that you're wrong?' I then asked him to read out Matthew 16:13-17 in his Bible. 'That's our preferred method of knowing truth', I said. They drove away. Edited October 17, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan 4
Navidad Posted October 17, 2022 Author Posted October 17, 2022 (edited) 15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: We do not believe in inerrancy: Good morning. There are many different definitions of inerrancy. As an Evangelical and as you, I do not believe in many of them. I finally found a copy of the definition from the Second Vatican Council of the Catholic Church. I like it a lot. Here it is: "The books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation." This comes from an inerrancy page on Wikipedia. I hope it is accurate. This is an inerrancy definition with which I can agree. There are many others. Thanks for your reply. Edited October 17, 2022 by Navidad I found what I was looking for! 1
Navidad Posted October 17, 2022 Author Posted October 17, 2022 12 hours ago, mfbukowski said: all revelation is in the Bible and done forever I am unaware of anyone who believes that. Even the most hard-shell Fundamentalists believe in both special and general revelation as valid.
Navidad Posted October 17, 2022 Author Posted October 17, 2022 12 hours ago, Calm said: This is the closest I have seen. I can’t copy/paste it, so will paraphrase…Jehovah is the source of living waters, the living prophets (which were the true prophets during Jeremiah’s time as well as now) are those who will be able to properly interpret his revelations while many churches (including then and now) rely on false interpretations by false leaders and teachers about the “old revelations” (scripture) and thus they are broken cisterns that cannot hold the living waters. Iow, it is “churches and institutions that are ‘broken’” cisterns. Seems more of an accusation on certain interpretations of the Bible than the Bible itself. Perhaps your class member had the same idea, but poorly explained it. It seems so contrary to our beliefs to label the Bible itself that, especially in one of the many lessons given during a two year study of it. https://books.google.com/books?id=uko3XlIoM_kC&pg=PT45&lpg=PT45&dq="broken+cisterns"+"the+bible".+"living+waters"+"living+prophets"&source=bl&ots=-a6L1x6Y9P&sig=ACfU3U2GuLkNE6PxAk3JMMHb6uCJsJsE-w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjnoq_xhub6AhX5MEQIHQ6hDU04ChDoAXoECAUQAw#v=onepage&q="broken cisterns" "the bible". "living waters" "living prophets"&f=false Very interesting. Is he considered an authority (not in a general authority sense) on LDS Biblical interpretation?
Navidad Posted October 17, 2022 Author Posted October 17, 2022 10 hours ago, mfbukowski said: It appears that "Latter Rain" is not an LDS movement, but a Protestant group originally started by Billy Graham. Of course my "research" took me at least 40 seconds, so your opinion may vary https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latter_Rain_(post–World_War_II_movement) The book Calm mentioned was published by a press I don't recognize. His mentions in Google sources seem to indicate he is LDS and has some relationship with Deseret Press. That took me 60 seconds so my research was much more thorough! Ha! 1
Navidad Posted October 17, 2022 Author Posted October 17, 2022 7 hours ago, Calm said: I think it most likely an incomplete thought and the teacher knew what the other was talking about…it is part of the restored gospel that without living revelation from some source (prophetic or personal), it is too easy to misinterpret scripture even when scripture is inspired (even with living revelation, it can be problematic). I would agree with this thought. It is very easy to misinterpret scripture, even with living revelation which I would describe as answers to prayer or promptings of the Holy Spirit, both of which the vast majority of all Christians seek as they study scripture.
Navidad Posted October 17, 2022 Author Posted October 17, 2022 3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Well done. After years of associating with and worshipping alongside us, you finally figured out our deep, dark secret: despite reading, preaching from, quoting, filming, freely distributing, and formally studying the Bible two years out of every four, we actually don't like it very much ... if at all. Our seeming love for the Bible is all just an elaborate conspiracy to fool people into thinking otherwise. Unfortunately, we cannot let the truth get out. I expect a band of Danites will arrive shortly. It's been nice knowing you! Good post! Fun! I actually started the thread for the very reason that you suggest in your reply. I have observed your love for the Bible. The comment seemed a bit odd to me. I have no problem seeking clarification from the one who said it. He likes paisley ties. I once gave him two of mine. Fortunately I don't have to wear ties nearly as often as I used to wear. As for the Danites . . . yesterday afternoon we did have a rather long haired, bearded scruffy looking guy with OPR embroidered on his jacket knock on our front door. I have no idea who he was! 😃 2
Calm Posted October 17, 2022 Posted October 17, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Navidad said: Very interesting. Is he considered an authority (not in a general authority sense) on LDS Biblical interpretation? Never heard of him. Looks like he is currently a chemistry teacher/coach and before that held a number of sales jobs. In his bio in his book, his authority appears to be just years of personal study and at least one college class. I believe the press that published his book is a self publishing press, The Latter Rain appears to be the only thing they have published according to Youtube. Sounds like he is rank and file. https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-conis-2b0933b Do you have the link to Deseret Press? That isn’t coming up for me. Edited October 17, 2022 by Calm
CV75 Posted October 17, 2022 Posted October 17, 2022 15 hours ago, Navidad said: Today in our Sunday School class we were studying the book of Jeremiah. When discussing Jeremiah 2:13-"For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water," one of our elder, most influential ward members raised his hand and said that the fountain of living waters refers to the living prophets of the LDS church and the broken cisterns that can hold no water refers to the Bible. I found this to be a remarkable statement. My wife thought it highly offensive. So, I bring it here to you all - does the LDS church teach that the living waters referred to in Jer 2:13 refers to living prophets such as the current group of 15 men and the broken cisterns that can hold no water refers to the Bible? The teacher of our class, who seems very knowledgeable of LDS doctrine, immediately agreed with the man's comments. I have thought that the Bible is accepted as a co-equal Scripture in the LDS world with the BOM, the POGP, and the D&C. Is the Bible thought of as "less than"? I doubt very much that my LDS friends would find the BOM to be a broken cistern that can hold no water. Is this just one man's opinion, or does it stem from some teaching in the church? Inquiring minds need to know. Thanks so much. Here is the lesson material, where nothing of the sort is suggested: Student Manual October 10–16. Jeremiah 1–3; 7; 16–18; 20: “Before I Formed Thee in the Belly I Knew Thee” (churchofjesuschrist.org) Teacher Manual October 10–16. Jeremiah 1–3; 7; 16–18; 20: “Before I Formed Thee in the Belly I Knew Thee” (churchofjesuschrist.org) There are plenty of general conference talks (easily Googled) about "Living Water" but none that I could find about broken cisterns. And a basic treatment here: Living Water (churchofjesuschrist.org) The Church clearly teaches correct principles, but individuals and teachers may not get everything right every time they learn or teach. In what ways might an individual turn something good into something bad, such as their Holy Bible into their broken cistern? 1
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