Coercion vs Persuasion

[Stargazer]

Whoops...

Edited September 15, 2022 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is not even a wager at that point though. If you choose atheism don’t you also get the booby prize? Or do atheists just cease to exist at death even if there is a God? So you might as well assume there is no God and if God exists you still win Pascal’s Wager.

Yeah, I guess so. 

[Stargazer]

15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Didja miss my video earlier?

[Teancum]

18 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Our journey with faith and religion is inherently different in several regards (mainly based on what I read here obviously).

First thank you for your thoughtful post. I agree our journeys are different.  I may have started similar to you to some extend but not all but am now in a different place.

 

18 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

 

 

That difference starts showing around the first sentence of this paragraph for me and keeps growing from there. Here are a few of my different starting points: 
- I assume God doesn’t speak to a few. I assume God speaks to just about everyone with varying degrees of awareness that that’s what’s happening. I think God has a specific apostolic calling for a few people at a time. They're not the only ones that have callings and stewardships in this life. 

Better said God allegedly speaks to the few in person, face to face, in vision or however it is done.  There are few Moses's, Joseph Smith's,Etc.  And the expectation usually is that the rest of us accept their words as form God and follow those words.  Of course there is the belief that God speaks in Mormonism God speaks revelation to all but can that revelation or direction dispute what the LDS leaders are saying?  No. At least not doctrinally.

 

18 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

 

- my trust starts with God and extends out. I do not hold the same degree of trust that I do in God that I do with anyone else who’s human. That trust is subjective and not as consistent and even with God I have my limits and moments with trust that it's not immediate or without a fight. I find it weird when people just trust without question or pause, that is not my natural state.

In the Church I think you are more unique than the norm.

 

18 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

-  Trust in a prophet is different than trust in all the prophet says or does (even in their calling). They are still people and people f-up/have limits...even when well meaning and trying. My faith in prophets the last 2 rounds specifically were ones found by witness that they were called to this. Not that I generally found them impressive or immediately worth my admiration. I remember with Monson specifically. I wasn't a fan of him prior and wasn't looking forward to him being prophet when I realized he'd likely be it. I happened to be in a talk I think at BYU where he came in with another apostle whose health was failing a little. His kindness and care for the apostle helped me know that he was a good man for the call. Anderson as well, I had a moment when he was first called when I happened to meet him on my mission. He was small, nerdy, and a little clumsy with getting his talk going for the YSA's that day. But his testimony and witness of Christ told me he was an apostle. He is one that I've had a talk or two rub me the wrong way. Which leads to the next point

 

I have never expected, or do I now, the LDS Prophets and Apostles to be perfect.  But on things they teach that are major doctrinal issues, direction, guidance, and when we are constantly told to follow them and we won't go astray, well yea I am going to expect better than normal performance  in that arena.

 

18 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

- I value pain, conflict, and contradiction. I value mess or at least am well grounded when it comes. I'm okay with a leader who may be the right call at the right time, but who made error, held cultural based assumptions and promoted them in earnest, and who I disagree with...sometimes adamantly so.  My life has been messy, I have been wrong, I've allowed my desires to fill in blanks that turned out to be dead wrong while pursuing God's will...and yet I've found God and been led by God throughout. I can't deny that. Often my mistakes have been teaching points later. So it's not hard to assume that I'm not exceptional on this. When confronted with a more complex and messy JS, that actually helped more so than hindered my faith in a restoration. Messy JS made sense....Pure JS fell flat for me.

Again I think you are more unique in that than most.  For me there just ended up being to much messiness, in your word, the trust him. In my words, deceit, backpedaling, writing things into canon that were not there and so on. Then move on to BY and the other Utah leaders, AGD, Blood Atonement and the list goes on.  Maybe I ended up setting my expectations to high.

18 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

 

 

When I read your post on this, because of what I mentioned above, it's hard for me to jump into the same line of conflict that you have. It's simply not mine. I didn't start with an extended trust in leaders. I was skeptical of grandiose image of them (still am). Trust was secondary. I learned that trust needed to be extended to some degree because that's what allowed for both development of faith, me, and community at large. It still doesn't come without discernment and boundaries to how far I extend said trust. I take in guidance and counsel....I do not view it as edicts and absolutes for me in my life. I trust a prophet/apostle to the extent of their calling...as general leaders for the time they were set up, to do the work God asked them, at the rate the church (aka the members) as a whole is willing to take in.  And I trust God to help me know what will apply to my life now. I don't know what you're view was when you were more believing and I don't know it now. I assume it may have been a little different than mine. And I assume it may be different in the future in your search. Tis life. 

 

With luv,

BD 

As noted I am open to just about anything.  I try to be anyway.  Maybe your approach would help me with God in general and the problem of evil. I am doubtful though I will ever accept what the church claims about itself and authority but perhaps there is another path to God for me.

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Didja miss my video earlier?

Yep.  🙂

[Teancum]

21 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I don't think I have commented like that. Or at least I hope not. It's very trite. And is so obvious on its face that it doesn't really need to be said. 

That is a very interesting question. It's like that conversation with DT_ in another thread about how long it would take God to count to infinity. Almost like counting angels on the heads of pins.

Do I have more reasons for my faith than you do for your unfaith? LOL! Shall we have a contest?

I look for reasons both to believe and to not believe. It turns out that the preponderance of evidence, so far, leads me to believe. You've reached the point opposite of mine. Perhaps SeekingUnderstanding's Bayesian statistics have a role here.

My preponderance of evidence for as opposed to against includes personal revelation that I find very very hard to dismiss. And for the sake of intellectual honesty, I have tried to dismiss these things. In every case (and I've documented them for my own purposes) I can only find minor weaknesses. My experience trumps my doubts, rather overwhelmingly. So there I am, feeling rather encouraged about it all, while feeling somewhat discouraged that others haven't found their way to it, or have lost their way from it. 

Not long after joining the church, and before I realized that the way I had found it was very peculiar, and very revealing given my personality at the time, as well as being very unlikely, I had enough faith to want to ask for a vision in prayer. I was only about 14 years old, and I guess I figured I was old enough, like Joseph Smith. I was very naïve. Why would I need a vision, and why would God have anything to show me? I still don't know what I thought I was doing. But ask I did. If I had been given a vision, I wouldn't be revealing it here, of course, so you know I didn't get one. What I got was very unexpected: just six words spoken into my mind. They didn't come from me. You'd likely argue that they did, I suppose, through some psychological loophole. But it was an answer that has guided me throughout my life, along with a few other answers over the course of time. 

There are a few verses in the book of Alma that I stumbled upon during my mission that also formed a basis for guidance, and relying upon them has led me to more guidance over the years. These are Alma 12:9-11, particularly verse 10. That entire chapter is of great value to me. I won't quote them here; if you want to read them you know where you can find them. But the words of that first personal revelation and the words in Alma have been a reliable lamp at my feet as I have wandered in the darkness of this veiled world.

I guess it sounds like I'm preaching, and I apologize for that. These things fill up the depths of my soul, and sometimes I just have to tell about them.

 

Thanks for sharing that.🙂

[BlueDreams]

17 hours ago, Teancum said:

First thank you for your thoughtful post. I agree our journeys are different.  I may have started similar to you to some extend but not all but am now in a different place.

I would assume as much.  

17 hours ago, Teancum said:

Better said God allegedly speaks to the few in person, face to face, in vision or however it is done.  There are few Moses's, Joseph Smith's,Etc.  And the expectation usually is that the rest of us accept their words as form God and follow those words.  Of course there is the belief that God speaks in Mormonism God speaks revelation to all but can that revelation or direction dispute what the LDS leaders are saying?  No. At least not doctrinally.

To some degree, I would say yes. I've had experiences where they have. But they were usually for my personal development and/or personal beliefs around something. So for example, let's go with JS and his first vision. Let's say I was there at the time and he told me all the churches were corrupt and I somehow had early word from him and maybe even believed him to some degree....but I personally received a revelation that I needed to join the methodists right then for an important reason. One could look at it as an overt contradiction.....or one could look at it as having different callings and different needs being met at the same time. JS had a specific mission and call to fulfill. I have a specific mission and call to fulfill. There may be an important reason why I need to go a different route than a prophet or leader. I think the folly is to move our answers to a more global position or to never take heed to counsel beyond our own. Just as I see an excess deference to a prophet or leader as problematic, the reverse of setting oneself up as one or dismissing prophets all together can also be problematic. In short it's a balance. I would also say there's a balance for leaders as well between sharing and leading in their stewardship and overstepping/maintaining humility in having more prominent roles (among other things). I'm sure we'll get that balance wrong at times.

I assume you would say that's likely a unique view. I think to some degree it is...but it's not that doctrinally far-fetched either. It's just culturally a little less prominent.

17 hours ago, Teancum said:

In the Church I think you are more unique than the norm.

Maybe. I'm not sure on this one. I know there are people who default to leaders even before they chat with God. At the same time I see policy course corrections that are trying to reduce that excessive relational dynamic to reorient both what a leader is for and to re-emphasize the importance of personal revelation and guidance via the HG. And when I've shared my views I've received basically no push back. I still see signs of defaulting to cultural custom of course. My stake tends to be fairly stereotypical in their UT cultural momonness. They still expect bishopric leaders to shave and have coifed hair. I believe it was this stake (or the last...we had a reshuffle of wards in my area during covid, so I'm thinking the last round) that added follow-up questions to temple recommends. They add and emphasize stuff on what it means to be modest for YW. There is definitely a more hierarchical relationship with our SP that tends to over-emphasize his importance as a leader. And they have some other rando quarky things that at times make me laugh and at times annoy me. Thing is, none of these are proscribed by the general church guidance. Some have either been completely omitted or directly advised against. It's hard to change what you've always been. But it is changing....and in some circles of the church I wouldn't stand out. I don't stand out as much in my spanish ward, for example. It tends to have a little less of the cultural baggage mentioned above and some differing ones we work with. 

17 hours ago, Teancum said:

I have never expected, or do I now, the LDS Prophets and Apostles to be perfect.  But on things they teach that are major doctrinal issues, direction, guidance, and when we are constantly told to follow them and we won't go astray, well yea I am going to expect better than normal performance  in that arena.

I would say this is what my statement was addressing. Not just that they have human foibles, but that their human foibles will effect what they teach on, how they direct, and more. I see them chosen to their callings because they've shown and continue to act in consistent service and dedication to the work. If someone's willing, God will use them to move things forward as much as possible. But each will have limits and each still have the potential to F-up. I don't know if I expect far more than "normal performance," depending on how that's defined. I expect them to fulfill their calling, if they are earnestly seeking to do so. I do believe that God won't let their errors and foible to cause irreparable damage, though it may cause problems and issues. 

17 hours ago, Teancum said:

Again I think you are more unique in that than most.  For me there just ended up being to much messiness, in your word, the trust him. In my words, deceit, backpedaling, writing things into canon that were not there and so on. Then move on to BY and the other Utah leaders, AGD, Blood Atonement and the list goes on.  Maybe I ended up setting my expectations to high.

Maybe? I don't know. On this one, I do find myself a little unique....I've been confronted with that while working with clients multiple times. I have small subtle traits that derive from this that get commented on from time to time. I don't see it in the US culture at large most the time. We tend to be a people (the US) that like idealism, soft pedal our history to promote that ideal, and many people tend to keep goals that work first to reduce pain...even before we really understand it.

I know where it comes from in me. It's a mix of pretty un-idealistic circumstances and concerns early in life that hurt and the process with God that brought not just a balm and healing but drastic growth and becoming from the caustic experience. I've had to forgive figures far closer to me and who hurt me worse than BY and other UT leaders ever will. It makes it easier to do so for things I find overtly wrong from the past.  

17 hours ago, Teancum said:

As noted I am open to just about anything.  I try to be anyway.  Maybe your approach would help me with God in general and the problem of evil. I am doubtful though I will ever accept what the church claims about itself and authority but perhaps there is another path to God for me.

I hope your journey and exploring things goes well for you. I know for me I often meet up with my own limitations in being open. It's a challenge to be such and I often find myself both doing so and working to mitigate my tendencies to critique and pick apart while learning about other practices and views. The ones I'm closest to can sometimes be the hardest to keep in balance with that. One more story on my end, if you don't mind. My approach, again is grounded in my lived experience. But I think there's a few principles tied to it that made it easier to get there. So If it may be of help, I'd like to share. 

When I was young I hated my mother. Not teen angst sort of hate. More like a deep unnamed rage from being stuck in a difficult situation because of her. I blamed her for my birth and I blamed her weaknesses as to why I was now expected to partially raise her kids and grow up too fast. I could list several other reasons that just made it hard for me to love her, let alone respect/honor her. Right before my mission, I needed to get endowed. I didn't want my mother as my escort and she was delaying my endowment because she wasn't ready to enter the temple. I had both practical and emotional reasons why I didn't want this. I'm pretty sure I express some of those by completely exploding on her one night too. But it happened anyways. When I was there, many of those practical issues were pretty visible. She couldn't remember the ceremony/procedure because she hadn't been for years, the temple workers were escorting her just as much as me. It was epitomized in her dress that she rented. It was too long and she was tripping over it the entire time, struggling to keep up with me and the group. I remember looking at her, frustrated and likely embarrassed, when a small impression came my way: "she's trying" with a sudden change in perspective as to how God saw my mother. The irony that I was also trying to do right while hold a secret loathing for the woman beside me during the endowment was lost on me at the time. But that impression would stick with me for years. Through spiritual healing, a couple rounds of therapy, and coming to terms with the fact that my mom is likely mentally ill and that I would need to always keep strong boundaries in our relationship...but when I do, I can love her genuinely. It was a guidepost to how I interacted with this broken part of me. I couldn't lose track that even though she at times epically fails (this was a very light example) she is trying and I need to see that along side with the way she's hurt me and can be hurtful. That life lesson (and many like them) branched out to how I see a lot of things and the injustice I experience became apart of my capacity and strength. 

Obviously I can't give that to you in your journey, but I hope it gives a different perspective and understanding to mull over as to why my view at times can be a little...unique  

 

With luv,

BD

[Niblo]

On 9/15/2022 at 1:28 PM, Stargazer said:

And if it turns out that Islam was the right religion and I'm burning in hell (the 3rd level, reserved for Christians), then I can console myself with the fact that I did the best I could under the circumstances. In that case, I imagine that Allah would at least nod his head and said, "Tough breaks, infidel, but that's the way it goes."

Nope!

As you know, the word ‘infidel’ was coined in the mid-15^th century.  It is derived from the Middle French ‘infidèle’, or Latin ‘īnfidēlis’; meaning ‘not faithful’; and was used by the Church to denote anyone who did not accept its core doctrines, or who belonged to a different religion.  The word does not exist in classical Arabic, and is not found in the Qur’an. 

 ‘Infidel’ is sometimes used (incorrectly) to render the Qur’anic word ‘kafir’; a word derived from the root K-F-R (‘kafara’); one meaning of which is ‘to cover’ or ‘to conceal’:

John Calvin captures the meaning of ‘kufr’ (in this context) when he writes: ‘I say, therefore, that he sins against the Holy Spirit who, while so constrained by the power of divine truth that he cannot plead ignorance, yet deliberately resists, and that merely for the sake of resisting.’ (‘Institutes of the Christian Religion; Book 3; Chapter 3; Section 22). 

Puritan Muslims use ‘kafir’ as a term of abuse; applying it especially to Christians and Jews.  This is not correct.  Indeed, a Muslim commits an offence if he accuses a Christian or a Jew of unbelief (cf. Encyclopaedia of Islam: second edition).

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) refers to Christian and Jews as ‘Ahl al-kitab’ (the ‘People of the Book’ – an honorific title).  This is what He has to say about them: ‘Those who believe, and do good deeds, are the best of creation.  Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever.  Allāh is well pleased with them and they with Him.  All this is for those who stand in awe of their Lord.’ (Al-Bayyina: 7-8; my emphasis). 

 Raised a Welsh Baptist, I became, at the age of fifteen, a Catholic; and remained one for over fifty years.

 For ten years I was a professed member of the Carmelite Third Order; and studied biblical and dogmatic theology – as well as other relevant stuff – with the aim of becoming a priest.  I spent a year with the Carmelite Friars at Hazlewood Castle in Yorkshire (now a hotel); and over a year with the Cistercians (Trappists) at Mount Saint Bernard Abbey in Leicester, testing a vocation (I first visited the Abbey in my early twenties, and knew the community well).  It became clear that life in a religious order was not my calling, and so I became a husband and father (as the Abbey Secretary said to me: ‘Our novitiate is a seedbed of good Catholic marriages!’).

 I look back at my time with the Carmelites and Cistercians with great affection.  I admire their spirituality, and their honest convictions; and their way of life – especially that of the Cistercians. 

About twenty years ago my son became a Muslim.  He obtained a degree in Classical Arabic; married a Moroccan lass (who I consider to be my third daughter); and now lives there.  He is a translator of Qur’anic and aḥadīth exegesis; and of other scholarly works.  One of my daughter’s ancestors, ʻAbd al-Salām ibn Mashīsh al-ʻAlamī, was the spiritual guide of Abu al-Hasan ash-Shadhili, founder of the Shadhili Tariqa.  My son is a Sufi of that Tariqa; and a murīd of Shaykh Seyyed Hossein Nasr.

Having gained a Muslim family I made it my business to learn all I could about Islam (I’m still learning).  It was during this long process (around fifteen years) that I began to question certain Christian beliefs I once held as true; and which I had defended many times over the years.  Moving from Christianity to Islam was a painful journey (emotionally); but it was the right journey……at least for me. 

It has been my privilege to know – and to love – many Christians who were shining examples of Christian love and good practice.  These ʾāyāt assure me that they shall have their reward in Heaven.  These ʾāyāt assure me that every Christian, and every Jew, who carries the Exalted in their hearts, and who strives to do good, will have their reward.  This is a solemn promise, and the Exalted does not renege on His promises. 

 

[Calm]

Welcome to the board, Niblo, you have an unusual background and likely can provide many an interesting perspective on matters of belief.  Thanks for joining us.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

17 hours ago, Niblo said:

These ʾāyāt assure me that every Christian, and every Jew, who carries the Exalted in their hearts, and who strives to do good, will have their reward.  This is a solemn promise, and the Exalted does not renege on His promises. 

Is this belief universal among Muslims?

[Niblo]

On 9/30/2022 at 8:01 AM, Calm said:

Welcome to the board, Niblo, you have an unusual background and likely can provide many an interesting perspective on matters of belief.  Thanks for joining us.

Good morning, Calm.

Many thanks for your welcome.  

As for the value of any contribution I might make.....I can see that you are an optimist! 😉

Blessings, and have a great weekend.

 

[Niblo]

21 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Is this belief universal among Muslims?

Greetings.

 Thank you for your question.

No!

I think it’s obvious to everyone that there is a divide in Islam between what are called Muslim moderates and Muslim puritans (Salafi/Wahhabi; who – it is said – represent around 5% of the Ummah.  I can’t verify this statistic; but there is no doubt that they are a minority).

Khaled Abou El Fadl – Omar and Azmeralda Alfi Distinguished Professor of Law at the UCLA School of Law – writes:

‘Both moderates and puritans claim to represent the true and authentic Islam. Both believe that they represent the Divine message as God intended it to be, and both believe that their convictions are thoroughly rooted in the Holy Book, the Qur’an, and in authentic traditions of the Prophet Muhammad.’ (‘The Great Theft Wrestling Islam from the Extremists’).

A profound difference between the moderate and the puritan is that the former embraces the latter as a fellow Muslim – and accepts the validity of Judaism and Christianity – while the latter believes that the moderate is no Muslim at all; and that Judaism and Christianity are have no validity whatsoever.  In the puritan mind, everyone but themselves is travelling to Hell in a handcart.

The Professor reminds us that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) – in numerous traditions – warns Muslims against: ‘The immorality of thinking ill of others and the arrogance of presuming to know how or what God thinks about any particular person." (Ibid).

I have stated that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) refers to Christian and Jews as Ahl al-kitab (the ‘People of the Book’); and says this about them: 

‘Those who believe, and do good deeds, are the best of creation.  Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever.  Allāh is well pleased with them and they with Him.  All this is for those who stand in awe of their Lord.’ (Al-Bayyina: 7-8; my emphasis). 

 Puritans claim that these ʾāyāt have been abrogated by the following:

 ‘If anyone seeks a religion other than complete devotion to Allāh, it will not be accepted from him: he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter.’ (Al‘Imran: 85). 

 The words ‘complete devotion’ are a rendition of ‘islam’; a word that is never capitalised in Arabic.  This word can also be rendered ‘submission’.

Puritans take the word ‘religion’, and then capitalise ‘islam’; giving the impression that the āyah refers to that particular Faith alone.  They claim that Islam is the only religion acceptable to Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla).  At the same time, they claim (correctly) that Islam is not merely a ‘religion’, but a way of life.  But so are Christianity and Judaism (and all other religions, too, of course).  And the best ‘way of life’, of course, is one spent in complete devotion to Allāh.

Al‘Imran: 85 can safely be rendered: ‘If anyone seeks a way of life other than complete devotion to Allāh, it will not be accepted from him: he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter.’

By the way, sūrah Al‘Imran was the 89^th to be revealed.  Sūrah Al-Bayyina was the 100^th.

I would be very interested to learn how one sūrah can abrogate another that came after it.

When I first became a Muslim I was confronted by a puritan, who demanded one of two things from me:  That I compel my wife – a Christian – to revert to Islam; or else that I divorce her.

He was unaware – or else chose to ignore – the fact that there is no disagreement between Islamic scholars that Muslim men are permitted to marry Christian or Jewish women.  In such marriages, the wife enjoys an absolute right, not only to retain her faith, but to practise it.  Under no circumstance can she be compelled to act otherwise.

‘There is no compulsion in religion: true guidance has become distinct from error, so whoever rejects false gods and believes in Allāh has grasped the firmest hand-hold, one that will never break.  Allāh is all hearing and all knowing.’ (Al-Baqara:256).

The Qur’an teaches that Christians and Jews are believers who follow legitimate ‘paths’, revealed by Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla), who says:

‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you.  If Allāh had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to Allāh and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48). 

I hope this answers your question.

May Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) bless you, and all you love.

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, Niblo said:

I hope this answers your question.

Thank you!

[Niblo]

9 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Thank you!

Anytime 👍

[MiserereNobis]

On 9/29/2022 at 12:28 PM, Niblo said:

Nope!

As you know, the word ‘infidel’ was coined in the mid-15^th century.  It is derived from the Middle French ‘infidèle’, or Latin ‘īnfidēlis’; meaning ‘not faithful’; and was used by the Church to denote anyone who did not accept its core doctrines, or who belonged to a different religion.  The word does not exist in classical Arabic, and is not found in the Qur’an. 

 ‘Infidel’ is sometimes used (incorrectly) to render the Qur’anic word ‘kafir’; a word derived from the root K-F-R (‘kafara’); one meaning of which is ‘to cover’ or ‘to conceal’:

John Calvin captures the meaning of ‘kufr’ (in this context) when he writes: ‘I say, therefore, that he sins against the Holy Spirit who, while so constrained by the power of divine truth that he cannot plead ignorance, yet deliberately resists, and that merely for the sake of resisting.’ (‘Institutes of the Christian Religion; Book 3; Chapter 3; Section 22). 

Puritan Muslims use ‘kafir’ as a term of abuse; applying it especially to Christians and Jews.  This is not correct.  Indeed, a Muslim commits an offence if he accuses a Christian or a Jew of unbelief (cf. Encyclopaedia of Islam: second edition).

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) refers to Christian and Jews as ‘Ahl al-kitab’ (the ‘People of the Book’ – an honorific title).  This is what He has to say about them: ‘Those who believe, and do good deeds, are the best of creation.  Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever.  Allāh is well pleased with them and they with Him.  All this is for those who stand in awe of their Lord.’ (Al-Bayyina: 7-8; my emphasis). 

 Raised a Welsh Baptist, I became, at the age of fifteen, a Catholic; and remained one for over fifty years.

 For ten years I was a professed member of the Carmelite Third Order; and studied biblical and dogmatic theology – as well as other relevant stuff – with the aim of becoming a priest.  I spent a year with the Carmelite Friars at Hazlewood Castle in Yorkshire (now a hotel); and over a year with the Cistercians (Trappists) at Mount Saint Bernard Abbey in Leicester, testing a vocation (I first visited the Abbey in my early twenties, and knew the community well).  It became clear that life in a religious order was not my calling, and so I became a husband and father (as the Abbey Secretary said to me: ‘Our novitiate is a seedbed of good Catholic marriages!’).

 I look back at my time with the Carmelites and Cistercians with great affection.  I admire their spirituality, and their honest convictions; and their way of life – especially that of the Cistercians. 

About twenty years ago my son became a Muslim.  He obtained a degree in Classical Arabic; married a Moroccan lass (who I consider to be my third daughter); and now lives there.  He is a translator of Qur’anic and aḥadīth exegesis; and of other scholarly works.  One of my daughter’s ancestors, ʻAbd al-Salām ibn Mashīsh al-ʻAlamī, was the spiritual guide of Abu al-Hasan ash-Shadhili, founder of the Shadhili Tariqa.  My son is a Sufi of that Tariqa; and a murīd of Shaykh Seyyed Hossein Nasr.

Having gained a Muslim family I made it my business to learn all I could about Islam (I’m still learning).  It was during this long process (around fifteen years) that I began to question certain Christian beliefs I once held as true; and which I had defended many times over the years.  Moving from Christianity to Islam was a painful journey (emotionally); but it was the right journey……at least for me. 

It has been my privilege to know – and to love – many Christians who were shining examples of Christian love and good practice.  These ʾāyāt assure me that they shall have their reward in Heaven.  These ʾāyāt assure me that every Christian, and every Jew, who carries the Exalted in their hearts, and who strives to do good, will have their reward.  This is a solemn promise, and the Exalted does not renege on His promises. 

 

Hi Niblo!

What a fantastic background and history you have. Welcome to the board! There are currently three actively posting Catholics here (3DOP, St. Bonaventure, and myself), so your Catholic experiences will be a welcome addition. I spend much time at nearby monasteries (both Benedictine), so I can understand your pull towards the religious life.

In my ten years here, I don't think we've had an actively posting Muslim, but I could be wrong. Your perspective will be much appreciated.

What brought you to an LDS board? And does "Niblo" mean anything in particular?

Thanks!

[Niblo]

15 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Hi Niblo!

What a fantastic background and history you have. Welcome to the board! There are currently three actively posting Catholics here (3DOP, St. Bonaventure, and myself), so your Catholic experiences will be a welcome addition. I spend much time at nearby monasteries (both Benedictine), so I can understand your pull towards the religious life.

In my ten years here, I don't think we've had an actively posting Muslim, but I could be wrong. Your perspective will be much appreciated.

What brought you to an LDS board? And does "Niblo" mean anything in particular?

Thanks!

Good morning, brother.

Thank you for your kind welcome.

As for my history, well, I owe my existence to a German bomb.

During the war, my father worked at military establishment near Stow-on-the-Wold, a market town in the Cotswolds.  The work was secret, and to this day we have no idea what he did. Anyway, the station was bombed in early 1945; and one bomb landed close enough to my Dad to knock him off his feet.  Fortunately, it failed to explode. Dad was such a happy – and grateful – bunny that, within the week, he and my Mam had a wee celebration. I was the result!

I can understand why you spent a deal of time with the Benedictines.  Great spirituality. 

I’m reminded of the Trappists at Mount St. Bernard.  As you know, they have a Rule of Silence (not a vow, as some folk think).  Here’s a M St B joke:

Every Easter, as a break from our Rule, the Novice Master permits one of his charges to say a few words about life at the Abbey.  On one year it was Bro Matthew’s turn:

‘I really do love it here, Father’ he said.  ‘The community is so very kind and supportive, and I simply adore the Divine Office.  I have to say though – and please forgive me, Father – that the food is terrible. It is easily the very worst I have ever experienced.’

On the next Easter, the turn falls to Brother Mark:

‘I have to agree with everything that Brother Matthew has said, except – and forgive me for being so harsh – he really is off his stupid head about the food.  It’s marvellous; by far the very best I’ve ever had’

On the third Easter, it’s the turn of Brother Luke:

‘I absolutely agree that life in the Abbey is wonderful; so enriching.  However, the one thing that really gets me down, Father, is the constant bickering over food!’

What brought me to this site?  Curiosity, and the opportunity to learn; for me, a never-ending process. 

As for my ‘Name’:

I’m from the Rhondda Valley, in South Wales.  In Valley speak, ‘Niblo’ is not a proper name.  It’s a nick-name, used by adults, to mark the youngest – male – sibling of the family household; as in: ‘You do take care of Niblo while I pop off to the shops, willew?  I’ll be back in a minute now.’

And here’s a Valley joke:

At the height of the Cold War a KGB Colonel was sent to Treherbert – Rhondda – to meet, secretly, with their local agent.

As he stepped off the train at Treherbert station, the Colonel noticed that he was the only person there, apart from a station porter. The Colonel walked up to the man and said: ‘I am looking for a Mister Jones. Can you help me, please?’

The porter laughed. ‘You’ll have a job with that’ he said. ‘We’ve got dozens of Jones’ here, mun. There’s Jones the Milk, Jones the Papers, Jones the Butcher, Jones the Barber, Jones the Chips, and tons more. I’m a Jones myself, see.’

The Colonel hesitated for a moment, then whispered: ‘The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain.’

 ‘Ahhh’, said the Porter. ‘You’ll be wanting Jones the Spy!’

You have a great day, now, and very best regards.

Blessings

[JustAnAustralian]

3 hours ago, Niblo said:

I’m from the Rhondda Valley, in South Wales.

Small world. I have family (now deceased) that lived there for a while (back in the 1930s)

[Niblo]

42 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Small world. I have family (now deceased) that lived there for a while (back in the 1930s)

Whaw.....whereabouts?