Coercion vs Persuasion

[Stargazer]

6 minutes ago, Nofear said:

The question was actually about Hagar being coerced (slaves, of course, are coerced, but this was a man of God doing it).

Whoops! Missed that! 

I guess the same thing happened with Jacob, his two wives and his two wives' servant girls they gave him for concubines.

[Teancum]

7 minutes ago, Jim Dandy said:

I don't want you to worry.  Or feel bad.  I was only thinking about how surprised I know you are going to be when you see God face to face and know he is real.  If you don't remember you already know him by then.

You may be surprised as well.  Well maybe not. If there is nothing after death we won't know it.

[Stargazer]

42 minutes ago, Teancum said:

If there is nothing after death we won't know it.

And I will win Pascal's wager.

[BlueDreams]

5 hours ago, Teancum said:

My issue with religion, and especially with Mormonism, is I am supposed to trust a few select people that God speaks to.  Why does God speak to a few?  Can I trust them?  Joseph Smith, in his famous happiness letter where he tries to persuade Nancy Rigdon to marry him, that whatever God says is right.  And that God can command and revoke.  ell if that is the case Joseph I better be sure I can trust what you say is from God. And based on his track record, IMO. I don't think I can trust him. Same is true for the track record of many LDS leaders on a number of what I believe are substantive issues.  See even with other religions this is the same.  Muhamed got the message from Gabriel and wrote it down and is the last prophet.  I don't know.  It seems a sketchy way to base one's life on such things.  It used to work for me. It doesn't any longer. Maybe it will some day. I am open. I search.  I talk to God though I wonder if a God is there. 

Our journey with faith and religion is inherently different in several regards (mainly based on what I read here obviously). That difference starts showing around the first sentence of this paragraph for me and keeps growing from there. Here are a few of my different starting points: 
- I assume God doesn’t speak to a few. I assume God speaks to just about everyone with varying degrees of awareness that that’s what’s happening. I think God has a specific apostolic calling for a few people at a time. They're not the only ones that have callings and stewardships in this life. 
- my trust starts with God and extends out. I do not hold the same degree of trust that I do in God that I do with anyone else who’s human. That trust is subjective and not as consistent and even with God I have my limits and moments with trust that it's not immediate or without a fight. I find it weird when people just trust without question or pause, that is not my natural state.

-  Trust in a prophet is different than trust in all the prophet says or does (even in their calling). They are still people and people f-up/have limits...even when well meaning and trying. My faith in prophets the last 2 rounds specifically were ones found by witness that they were called to this. Not that I generally found them impressive or immediately worth my admiration. I remember with Monson specifically. I wasn't a fan of him prior and wasn't looking forward to him being prophet when I realized he'd likely be it. I happened to be in a talk I think at BYU where he came in with another apostle whose health was failing a little. His kindness and care for the apostle helped me know that he was a good man for the call. Anderson as well, I had a moment when he was first called when I happened to meet him on my mission. He was small, nerdy, and a little clumsy with getting his talk going for the YSA's that day. But his testimony and witness of Christ told me he was an apostle. He is one that I've had a talk or two rub me the wrong way. Which leads to the next point

- I value pain, conflict, and contradiction. I value mess or at least am well grounded when it comes. I'm okay with a leader who may be the right call at the right time, but who made error, held cultural based assumptions and promoted them in earnest, and who I disagree with...sometimes adamantly so.  My life has been messy, I have been wrong, I've allowed my desires to fill in blanks that turned out to be dead wrong while pursuing God's will...and yet I've found God and been led by God throughout. I can't deny that. Often my mistakes have been teaching points later. So it's not hard to assume that I'm not exceptional on this. When confronted with a more complex and messy JS, that actually helped more so than hindered my faith in a restoration. Messy JS made sense....Pure JS fell flat for me. 

When I read your post on this, because of what I mentioned above, it's hard for me to jump into the same line of conflict that you have. It's simply not mine. I didn't start with an extended trust in leaders. I was skeptical of grandiose image of them (still am). Trust was secondary. I learned that trust needed to be extended to some degree because that's what allowed for both development of faith, me, and community at large. It still doesn't come without discernment and boundaries to how far I extend said trust. I take in guidance and counsel....I do not view it as edicts and absolutes for me in my life. I trust a prophet/apostle to the extent of their calling...as general leaders for the time they were set up, to do the work God asked them, at the rate the church (aka the members) as a whole is willing to take in.  And I trust God to help me know what will apply to my life now. I don't know what you're view was when you were more believing and I don't know it now. I assume it may have been a little different than mine. And I assume it may be different in the future in your search. Tis life. 

 

With luv,

BD 

[mfbukowski]

34 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Our journey with faith and religion is inherently different in several regards (mainly based on what I read here obviously). That difference starts showing around the first sentence of this paragraph for me and keeps growing from there. Here are a few of my different starting points: 
- I assume God doesn’t speak to a few. I assume God speaks to just about everyone with varying degrees of awareness that that’s what’s happening. I think God has a specific apostolic calling for a few people at a time. They're not the only ones that have callings and stewardships in this life. 
- my trust starts with God and extends out. I do not hold the same degree of trust that I do in God that I do with anyone else who’s human. That trust is subjective and not as consistent and even with God I have my limits and moments with trust that it's not immediate or without a fight. I find it weird when people just trust without question or pause, that is not my natural state.

-  Trust in a prophet is different than trust in all the prophet says or does (even in their calling). They are still people and people f-up/have limits...even when well meaning and trying. My faith in prophets the last 2 rounds specifically were ones found by witness that they were called to this. Not that I generally found them impressive or immediately worth my admiration. I remember with Monson specifically. I wasn't a fan of him prior and wasn't looking forward to him being prophet when I realized he'd likely be it. I happened to be in a talk I think at BYU where he came in with another apostle whose health was failing a little. His kindness and care for the apostle helped me know that he was a good man for the call. Anderson as well, I had a moment when he was first called when I happened to meet him on my mission. He was small, nerdy, and a little clumsy with getting his talk going for the YSA's that day. But his testimony and witness of Christ told me he was an apostle. He is one that I've had a talk or two rub me the wrong way. Which leads to the next point

- I value pain, conflict, and contradiction. I value mess or at least am well grounded when it comes. I'm okay with a leader who may be the right call at the right time, but who made error, held cultural based assumptions and promoted them in earnest, and who I disagree with...sometimes adamantly so.  My life has been messy, I have been wrong, I've allowed my desires to fill in blanks that turned out to be dead wrong while pursuing God's will...and yet I've found God and been led by God throughout. I can't deny that. Often my mistakes have been teaching points later. So it's not hard to assume that I'm not exceptional on this. When confronted with a more complex and messy JS, that actually helped more so than hindered my faith in a restoration. Messy JS made sense....Pure JS fell flat for me. 

When I read your post on this, because of what I mentioned above, it's hard for me to jump into the same line of conflict that you have. It's simply not mine. I didn't start with an extended trust in leaders. I was skeptical of grandiose image of them (still am). Trust was secondary. I learned that trust needed to be extended to some degree because that's what allowed for both development of faith, me, and community at large. It still doesn't come without discernment and boundaries to how far I extend said trust. I take in guidance and counsel....I do not view it as edicts and absolutes for me in my life. I trust a prophet/apostle to the extent of their calling...as general leaders for the time they were set up, to do the work God asked them, at the rate the church (aka the members) as a whole is willing to take in.  And I trust God to help me know what will apply to my life now. I don't know what you're view was when you were more believing and I don't know it now. I assume it may have been a little different than mine. And I assume it may be different in the future in your search. Tis life. 

 

With luv,

BD 

Thanks for being here.

I was about to come back in my usual manner and you came back with a loving attitude.

Do you take zoom patients?  

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, Teancum said:

My issue with religion, and especially with Mormonism, is I am supposed to trust a few select people that God speaks to.  Why does God speak to a few?  Can I trust them?  Joseph Smith, in his famous happiness letter where he tries to persuade Nancy Rigdon to marry him, that whatever God says is right.  And that God can command and revoke.  ell if that is the case Joseph I better be sure I can trust what you say is from God. And based on his track record, IMO. I don't think I can trust him. Same is true for the track record of many LDS leaders on a number of what I believe are substantive issues.  See even with other religions this is the same.  Muhamed got the message from Gabriel and wrote it down and is the last prophet.  I don't know.  It seems a sketchy way to base one's life on such things.  It used to work for me. It doesn't any longer. Maybe it will some day. I am open. I search.  I talk to God though I wonder if a God is there. 

Keep at it.

No you don't need others to tell you what God wants you to do- that is why we believe in personal revelation and testimony so much.   I have always had a kind of brotherly rivalry/competititve/love impression of you because I see myself in your struggles.  Wanna arm wrestle?  I'll beat you anyway!   

It took me a looong time looking even after I had the philosophy down for what I was looking for, and now it amazes me!

Mind if I tell a rather long story?  I won't ever know your answer anyway!

I often teach the lessons in EQ, whoever decided that one!

I had a topic from a conference talk about overcoming difficulties this last Sunday.   I was like "duh- this again?  How am I supposed to make a good lesson out of this- it's standard LDS fare and will be BOOOOOOORING pretty much no matter what I do

I had a counselor when I was bishop who was a tremendous individual and a major "scriptornian".   One of those guys who just shine out at you as PURE LDS.

He has 3 sons.  One was athletic and very smart and very close to the church.  I will call him "Bob" because it is easy to type.    The other two tended to wander and they did.

Dad got sick and could no longer act as a counselor, and I NEEDED a counselor in that position.   I had no choice but to release him because of his health- I felt it was better for him anyway and would save him some stress so he could rest more and get over his ailment, so I released him.   I thought it was the best thing, but to my chagrin he resented the release, and his family drifted out of my friendship- not the church, but we were definitely not as close as families as we had been.

Shortly after, he passed away.

I tried to comfort the family but always was subtly rebuffed- appointments got missed, attempts to help them were never accepted.  I tried continually to talk with the widow, but with smiles and kindness, nothing ever happened.   The two sons drifted farther no matter what I tried.   Bob, though,  stayed with the church, held a recommend and attended the temple but kept his distance.  Eventually my 5 years were up and I was released.   I still kept trying but to no avail.  Bob married and had a couple of boys himself, and of course our invitation got lost in the mail.

Then the news came,as we say "out of the blue" that Bob had a massive stroke in his early 20's. ! It was devastating and everyone in the ward pulled out the stops as you would expect.   They were well taken care of.  Yet I still could not get through to them.   Bob had to learn to walk and talk all over again.   He was in a near-infantile state, but the family kept giving polite, smiling refusals for any contact with me.  Yet Bob was hanging in there and improving slowly but continually.  He went from a wheelchair to a cane, and was able to speak fairly clearly, though his tongue didn't quite hit all the places it should have.   He bore his testimony rarely on occasion, but was hard to understand.  But he kept on fighting and improving.

I pretty much gave up, always waved at them across the chapel, smiles and waves returned- but with no substance.

Bob's wife divorced him.

I never knew much about it, I was out of the leadershlp loop, but THAT was devastating all over again.  It was palpable, you could see it. Yet a part of me understood some possible reasons- right or wrong- of how that could have happened, whatever it was, I could not judge his wife's heart.

Again the ward reached out.  There were kids to be taken care of from before the stroke, meals to be prepared and FATHERHOOD for the kids to experience, to take them to the playground, love them and fully teach them the "fatherly" experience which eventually they would connect with out Heavenly Father.   Bob had been near death from the stroke, lost his saintly father, and now divorced by the one person who understandably was herself I am sure stressed beyond anyone else's comprehension.  No one can judge what she went through

     ________________________________________________________________________________________

And so eventually I got the assigment for the affliction talk from the EQP.   At least 10 years had passed.

I thought and prayed about how I could turn this talk into anything better than a snore-fest.  There had to be a way.  Pray and fight against afflictions knowing they could be for our own good as Joseph said in Liberty jail.    Oh yeah, that is going to go over like a lead balloon 

Then a crazy thought popped into my head!   Suppose I called Bob and asked him how he has overcome all he has overcome, and if maybe he could contribute to the lesson.  

But common sense prevailed.  He was distant and never wanted to talk to me.  It would be intrusive.   It would be SO VERY intrusive!!  "Hey kid- wanna talk about all your problems in front of the whole Elder's Quorum?

We had so many new ward members who never knew him OR his incredible father.   He didnt speak clearly.  He wanted to have nothing to do with me.  People are reticent to approach disabled folks,  I am not sure why.  We had a new bishop after a ward re-alignment who never knew Bob's father, OR my struggles with the family.   All that was over like 10 years ago now anyway!

And so I really spent a lot more time than usual creating the skeleton of a talk for discussion.  I combed the conference talks and did all that stuff we are supposed to do a couple of times over.

It was still going to be booooring.   Oh well, a nice nap might be good for some anyway.... 

And so we walked into the chapel Sunday morning.   The bishop had been out of town for a few weeks on a long vacation.  The officiating counselor came over and asked me to give the closing prayer.   Sure, of course, no problem.

After the chapel filled a little more, the officiator stood and announced who was going to speak. 

BOB WAS ONE OF THE SPEAKERS!   

I was shocked beyond belief- how could this happen?   I had deliberately decided that he was not ready to speak and here they put this all on HIM?

And what was his talk on?   I tried to think it through- I had no spiritual connection with him for years and had no clue "where he was at".

He spoke about RISING FROM AFFLICTION!!

NOW suddenly I knew that these arrangments- were not from me but from God!  No there was no "coincidence" there- the bishop was out of town for weeks, the counselor had just been called after moving from another ward, and didn't know anyone in the Ward a few months ago.  People tend not to listen to him because he has a VERY heavy accent but is one of the most spiritual people I have ever met.   INCREDIBLE guy, incredible family!   But no way- was this arranged by human intelligence.

And there was one more little detail.  By me arriving at church when I did, while Mr. Counselor was randomly greeting folks in the chapel, I sat down in my "usual pew" just before he came by "doing his rounds" of greeting folks there.   I could have been later, or earlier, or he could have asked ANYONE already in the chapel to say the final prayer.

But no, he asked ME which put my on the stand at the exact time Bob had finished his talk and I could ask him to say a little more about his topic in EQ.  He agreed and seemed to have no problem at all with the idea.  After all he had just spoken on the same point in Sacrament.

He agreed, he did, the lesson was very well received and we got some very spiritual responses.   AND Bob and I are now buddies and all the bad years have melted away!!

Later walking out, Bob's mom (he had to return home to live due to his disability and no one else to help him, so mom drives) and I had a little chat- between Bob's cane and my cane and our handicapped stickers- we were right on schedule- to bump into each other.   She was absolutely radiant for the first time in at least 10 years, we chatted about how wonderful Bob was and how strong he is

Critics will see "coincidence" or "the universe" or some fancy theory.   I don't care

A rose by any other name smells just as sweet.

I guess I would call coincidence Divine  Providence in that case.   I am certain.

I don't care what word anyone attaches, frankly.  Words are not reality 

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by mfbukowski

[SeekingUnderstanding]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

And I will win Pascal's wager.

Only if you happened to pick the right God. Go read BYU’s Steve Peck’s A short stay in Hell for an afterlife as experienced by a Latter-day Saint in Zoroastrian hell. It’s a quick read. 
 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B007LQ81HK/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?ie=UTF8&qid=&sr=

Edited September 15, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Keep at it.

No you don't need others to tell you what God wants you to do- that is why we believe in personal revelation and testimony so much.   I have always had a kind of brotherly rivalry/competititve/love impression of you because I see myself in your struggles.  Wanna arm wrestle?  I'll beat you anyway!   

It took me a looong time looking even after I had the philosophy down for what I was looking for, and now it amazes me!

Mind if I tell a rather long story?  I won't ever know your answer anyway!

I often teach the lessons in EQ, whoever decided that one!

I had a topic from a conference talk about overcoming difficulties this last Sunday.   I was like "duh- this again?  How am I supposed to make a good lesson out of this- it's standard LDS fare and will be BOOOOOOORING pretty much no matter what I do

I had a counselor when I was bishop who was a tremendous individual and a major "scriptornian".   One of those guys who just shine out at you as PURE LDS.

He has 3 sons.  One was athletic and very smart and very close to the church.  I will call him "Bob" because it is easy to type.    The other two tended to wander and they did.

Dad got sick and could no longer act as a counselor, and I NEEDED a counselor in that position.   I had no choice but to release him because of his health- I felt it was better for him anyway and would save him some stress so he could rest more and get over his ailment, so I released him.   I thought it was the best thing, but to my chagrin he resented the release, and his family drifted out of my friendship- not the church, but we were definitely not as close as families as we had been.

Shortly after, he passed away.

I tried to comfort the family but always was subtly rebuffed- appointments got missed, attempts to help them were never accepted.  I tried continually to talk with the widow, but with smiles and kindness, nothing ever happened.   The two sons drifted farther no matter what I tried.   Bob, though,  stayed with the church, held a recommend and attended the temple but kept his distance.  Eventually my 5 years were up and I was released.   I still kept trying but to no avail.  Bob married and had a couple of boys himself, and of course our invitation got lost in the mail.

Then the news came,as we say "out of the blue" that Bob had a massive stroke in his early 20's. ! It was devastating and everyone in the ward pulled out the stops as you would expect.   They were well taken care of.  Yet I still could not get through to them.   Bob had to learn to walk and talk all over again.   He was in a near-infantile state, but the family kept giving polite, smiling refusals for any contact with me.  Yet Bob was hanging in there and improving slowly but continually.  He went from a wheelchair to a cane, and was able to speak fairly clearly, though his tongue didn't quite hit all the places it should have.   He bore his testimony rarely on occasion, but was hard to understand.  But he kept on fighting and improving.

I pretty much gave up, always waved at them across the chapel, smiles and waves returned- but with no substance.

Bob's wife divorced him.

I never knew much about it, I was out of the leadershlp loop, but THAT was devastating all over again.  It was palpable, you could see it. Yet a part of me understood some possible reasons- right or wrong- of how that could have happened, whatever it was, I could not judge his wife's heart.

Again the ward reached out.  There were kids to be taken care of from before the stroke, meals to be prepared and FATHERHOOD for the kids to experience, to take them to the playground, love them and fully teach them the "fatherly" experience which eventually they would connect with out Heavenly Father.   Bob had been near death from the stroke, lost his saintly father, and now divorced by the one person who understandably was herself I am sure stressed beyond anyone else's comprehension.  No one can judge what she went through

     ________________________________________________________________________________________

And so eventually I got the assigment for the affliction talk from the EQP.   At least 10 years had passed.

I thought and prayed about how I could turn this talk into anything better than a snore-fest.  There had to be a way.  Pray and fight against afflictions knowing they could be for our own good as Joseph said in Liberty jail.    Oh yeah, that is going to go over like a lead balloon 

Then a crazy thought popped into my head!   Suppose I called Bob and asked him how he has overcome all he has overcome, and if maybe he could contribute to the lesson.  

But common sense prevailed.  He was distant and never wanted to talk to me.  It would be intrusive.   It would be SO VERY intrusive!!  "Hey kid- wanna talk about all your problems in front of the whole Elder's Quorum?

We had so many new ward members who never knew him OR his incredible father.   He didnt speak clearly.  He wanted to have nothing to do with me.  People are reticent to approach disabled folks,  I am not sure why.  We had a new bishop after a ward re-alignment who never knew Bob's father, OR my struggles with the family.   All that was over like 10 years ago now anyway!

And so I really spent a lot more time than usual creating the skeleton of a talk for discussion.  I combed the conference talks and did all that stuff we are supposed to do a couple of times over.

It was still going to be booooring.   Oh well, a nice nap might be good for some anyway.... 

And so we walked into the chapel Sunday morning.   The bishop had been out of town for a few weeks on a long vacation.  The officiating counselor came over and asked me to give the closing prayer.   Sure, of course, no problem.

After the chapel filled a little more, the officiator stood and announced who was going to speak. 

BOB WAS ONE OF THE SPEAKERS!   

I was shocked beyond belief- how could this happen?   I had deliberately decided that he was not ready to speak and here they put this all on HIM?

And what was his talk on?   I tried to think it through- I had no spiritual connection with him for years and had no clue "where he was at".

He spoke about RISING FROM AFFLICTION!!

NOW suddenly I knew that these arrangments- were not from me but from God!  No there was no "coincidence" there- the bishop was out of town for weeks, the counselor had just been called after moving from another ward, and didn't know anyone in the Ward a few months ago.  People tend not to listen to him because he has a VERY heavy accent but is one of the most spiritual people I have ever met.   INCREDIBLE guy, incredible family!   But no way- was this arranged by human intelligence.

And there was one more little detail.  By me arriving at church when I did, while Mr. Counselor was randomly greeting folks in the chapel, I sat down in my "usual pew" just before he came by "doing his rounds" of greeting folks there.   I could have been later, or earlier, or he could have asked ANYONE already in the chapel to say the final prayer.

But no, he asked ME which put my on the stand at the exact time Bob had finished his talk and I could ask him to say a little more about his topic in EQ.  He agreed and seemed to have no problem at all with the idea.  After all he had just spoken on the same point in Sacrament.

He agreed, he did, the lesson was very well received and we got some very spiritual responses.   AND Bob and I are now buddies and all the bad years have melted away!!

Later walking out, Bob's mom (he had to return home to live due to his disability and no one else to help him, so mom drives) and I had a little chat- between Bob's cane and my cane and our handicapped stickers- we were right on schedule- to bump into each other.   She was absolutely radiant for the first time in at least 10 years, we chatted about how wonderful Bob was and how strong he is

Critics will see "coincidence" or "the universe" or some fancy theory.   I don't care

A rose by any other name smells just as sweet.

I guess I would call coincidence Divine  Providence in that case.   I am certain.

 

Loved the story. Yes I see it as a coincidence, but as you say that doesn’t make it any less sweet. 

[The Nehor]

52 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Only if you happened to pick the right God. Go read BYU’s Steve Peck’s A short stay in Hell for an afterlife as experienced by a Latter-day Saint in Zoroastrian hell. It’s a quick read. 
 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B007LQ81HK/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?ie=UTF8&qid=&sr=

That was a messed up story about the horror of immortality. I liked it.

I did find myself annoyed at one detail. They were told that in the practically endless but eventually achievable search for the book that held their life story each section of the library also contained a book about the true faith for them to look at. Unless I missed it no character ever picked up and read that book. Unless that was intentional for some reason.

[Stargazer]

8 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Only if you happened to pick the right God. Go read BYU’s Steve Peck’s A short stay in Hell for an afterlife as experienced by a Latter-day Saint in Zoroastrian hell. It’s a quick read. 

No, I win Pascal's wager even if I go to hell. Because the argument isn't between religions, it's between religion and atheism.

"Pascal argues that a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.), whereas if God does exist, he stands to receive infinite gains (as represented by eternity in Heaven) and avoid infinite losses (an eternity in Hell)."

Pascal obviously assumes there is only a Christian god, but if that one doesn't exist, at least one tried.

If I, as a Christian, go to Zoroastrian or Muslim hell, nevertheless I continue to exist, even if in eternal suffering. Muslim scholars differ as to whether the hell-bound have to stay there for all eternity, or whether Allah's mercy allows eventual escape. 

Now, would I want to escape neverending suffering? I'm sure I would, but regardless, I would have won Pascal's Wager, even if the reward ended up to be a booby prize.

8 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B007LQ81HK/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?ie=UTF8&qid=&sr=

Intriqued, I bought the Kindle edition, which I will read shortly. Thanks for the reference!  

AND, oh yes, as much as I dislike South Park in general, I couldn't help but include this clip:

 

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Stargazer

[Teancum]

13 hours ago, Stargazer said:

And I will win Pascal's wager.

Maybe.  Maybe  not.  You really don't know nor do any of you who simply keep making assertions of your faith.

[Stargazer]

27 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Maybe.  Maybe  not. 

Exactly. Pascal's Wager is very clear. God or Not God. You're betting Not. I understand.

27 minutes ago, Teancum said:

You really don't know nor do any of you who simply keep making assertions of your faith.

Why do you keep running on about this?  You really don't know, either, T.  And you simply keep making assertions of your unfaith. 🙄

Anyway, I'm not going to run through the many evidences that I have personally been given about the existence of God, and the truthiness of the LDS church in particular. You wouldn't believe them if I did, and I don't see a point. Suffice it to say I am sufficiently convinced of these things to regard it as rational to act accordingly. To do otherwise would actually be quite irrational. 

If it turns out in the end that my existence ends with my last breath, I will have lost nothing, because I will no longer exist. And if it turns out that Islam was the right religion and I'm burning in hell (the 3rd level, reserved for Christians), then I can console myself with the fact that I did the best I could under the circumstances. In that case, I imagine that Allah would at least nod his head and said, "Tough breaks, infidel, but that's the way it goes."

Edited September 15, 2022 by Stargazer

[SeekingUnderstanding]

51 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Now, would I want to escape neverending suffering? I'm sure I would, but regardless, I would have won Pascal's Wager, even if the reward ended up to be a booby prize.

If you are in hell with the atheist, I am not sure how that could count as a win. 
 

Hope you enjoy the book. It does an excellent job conceptualizing eternity and how long short can be. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

That was a messed up story about the horror of immortality. I liked it.

I did find myself annoyed at one detail. They were told that in the practically endless but eventually achievable search for the book that held their life story each section of the library also contained a book about the true faith for them to look at. Unless I missed it no character ever picked up and read that book. Unless that was intentional for some reason.

I suspect an editing error left that rule in place. I didn’t notice it until I saw a review that mentioned it. 

[Stargazer]

7 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

If you are in hell with the atheist, I am not sure how that could count as a win. 

A booby prize, but, <shrug> a prize.

But if one can conceptualize a god who creates volitionals only to discard them (or actually punish them) because he/she/it deliberately put them into positions where they had no chance of fulfilling the requirements the god has set, then one has conceived of a god who is a respecter of persons, who has no mercy, no love, and no logic. Such a god would be a morally-bankrupt narcissist. I actually cannot conceive that such a god can even exist. 

7 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Hope you enjoy the book. It does an excellent job conceptualizing eternity and how long short can be. 

"how long short can be"? LOL!

[SeekingUnderstanding]

29 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

A booby prize, but, <shrug> a prize.

A prize you share with the unbelieving atheist. Your wager didn’t pay off. 

29 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

But if one can conceptualize a god who creates volitionals only to discard them (or actually punish them) because he/she/it deliberately put them into positions where they had no chance of fulfilling the requirements the god has set, then one has conceived of a god who is a respecter of persons, who has no mercy, no love, and no logic. Such a god would be a morally-bankrupt narcissist. I actually cannot conceive that such a god can even exist. 
 

As an atheist I wholeheartedly agree (except for the last sentence - I can conceive of a lot of things). If there is a God that would prefer fake devotion over honest disbelief, it is not worthy of worship. And that in a nutshell is Pascal’s wager. 

29 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

 

[Stargazer]

25 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

As an atheist I wholeheartedly agree (except for the last sentence - I can conceive of a lot of things). If there is a God that would prefer fake devotion over honest disbelief, it is not worthy of worship. And that in a nutshell is Pascal’s wager. 

I don't quite see the wager in those terms. 

I have to say, that as a science fiction aficionado, I can also conceive of a lot of things, including there being no god at all. Although my personal experience highly suggests this to be a non-starter.

I agree that a god that would prefer fake devotion over honest disbelief would not be worthy of worship. And I don't believe that such a god exists. 

Curious I am as to at what point would you lose your honest disbelief. Would it take an entry into an unexpected afterlife possibly explainable as the LDS spirit world? Or would you even then continue to doubt?

Edited September 15, 2022 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

11 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Only if you happened to pick the right God. Go read BYU’s Steve Peck’s A short stay in Hell for an afterlife as experienced by a Latter-day Saint in Zoroastrian hell. It’s a quick read. 
 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B007LQ81HK/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?ie=UTF8&qid=&sr=

I forgot to ask, had you ever read Dante's Inferno (meaning the book Dante wrote)? Or perhaps Jerry Pournelle's and Larry Niven's Inferno (which is a takeoff from Dante's)?

Edited September 15, 2022 by Stargazer

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Why do you keep running on about this?  You really don't know, either, T.  And you simply keep making assertions of your unfaith. 🙄

Well I made it mostly because I have been getting a lot of these assertions from a lot of other posters and i guess I felt a need to make the comment. THings like I am really going to be surprised when I am face to face with God, etc.

 

I do not claim to know.  Others do or have a strong dose of self confidence faith.  Is it simply an assertion of unfaith?  Well I have many reasons for my unfaith I guess likely as you do for your faith right?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Curious I am as to at what point would you lose your honest disbelief.

 

The world that I see would have to make more sense given the existence of God rather than Her absence. 

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

 

Would it take an entry into an unexpected afterlife possibly explainable as the LDS spirit world?
 

Yep! That would do it. 

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

 

Or would you even then continue to doubt?

As an aspiring Bayesian, I feel there should always be room for doubt, but at what point does it make sense to consider the idea settled? When you are 99% sure? 99.999%? At some point you move on even if you realize absolute certainty isn’t obtainable. 

Edited September 15, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Nofear]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

As an aspiring Bayesian...

The thought comes to mind about lies, damned lies, and Bayesian statistics.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

13 minutes ago, Nofear said:

The thought comes to mind about lies, damned lies, and Bayesian statistics.

Ha, yes! Anyone that purports to prove this or that via Bayesian statistics is likely woefully misled. The actual math works well in determining the odds you have cancer given a positive or negative test result. 
 

In other realms it’s usefulness is more rhetorical and approximate. But still the best tool we have. Is Joseph more or less likely to be a fraud given the existence of 11 witnesses? Well in a debate, you can explain any evidence you want away, saying that witnesses can be accounted for even if there is Fraud. But Bayes tells you there is only one way to interpret this. And that is witnesses decrease the likelihood of fraud. 
 

Similarly with God. For one example, If people from diverse places of the earth all told the exact same or very similar creation myths, that would be Bayesian evidence for God. The lack there of is evidence against God. 

Edited September 15, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

Well I made it mostly because I have been getting a lot of these assertions from a lot of other posters and i guess I felt a need to make the comment. THings like I am really going to be surprised when I am face to face with God, etc.

I don't think I have commented like that. Or at least I hope not. It's very trite. And is so obvious on its face that it doesn't really need to be said. 

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

 

I do not claim to know.  Others do or have a strong dose of self confidence faith.  Is it simply an assertion of unfaith?  Well I have many reasons for my unfaith I guess likely as you do for your faith right?

That is a very interesting question. It's like that conversation with DT_ in another thread about how long it would take God to count to infinity. Almost like counting angels on the heads of pins.

Do I have more reasons for my faith than you do for your unfaith? LOL! Shall we have a contest?

I look for reasons both to believe and to not believe. It turns out that the preponderance of evidence, so far, leads me to believe. You've reached the point opposite of mine. Perhaps SeekingUnderstanding's Bayesian statistics have a role here.

My preponderance of evidence for as opposed to against includes personal revelation that I find very very hard to dismiss. And for the sake of intellectual honesty, I have tried to dismiss these things. In every case (and I've documented them for my own purposes) I can only find minor weaknesses. My experience trumps my doubts, rather overwhelmingly. So there I am, feeling rather encouraged about it all, while feeling somewhat discouraged that others haven't found their way to it, or have lost their way from it. 

Not long after joining the church, and before I realized that the way I had found it was very peculiar, and very revealing given my personality at the time, as well as being very unlikely, I had enough faith to want to ask for a vision in prayer. I was only about 14 years old, and I guess I figured I was old enough, like Joseph Smith. I was very naïve. Why would I need a vision, and why would God have anything to show me? I still don't know what I thought I was doing. But ask I did. If I had been given a vision, I wouldn't be revealing it here, of course, so you know I didn't get one. What I got was very unexpected: just six words spoken into my mind. They didn't come from me. You'd likely argue that they did, I suppose, through some psychological loophole. But it was an answer that has guided me throughout my life, along with a few other answers over the course of time. 

There are a few verses in the book of Alma that I stumbled upon during my mission that also formed a basis for guidance, and relying upon them has led me to more guidance over the years. These are Alma 12:9-11, particularly verse 10. That entire chapter is of great value to me. I won't quote them here; if you want to read them you know where you can find them. But the words of that first personal revelation and the words in Alma have been a reliable lamp at my feet as I have wandered in the darkness of this veiled world.

I guess it sounds like I'm preaching, and I apologize for that. These things fill up the depths of my soul, and sometimes I just have to tell about them.

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Stargazer

[JLHPROF]

16 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Only if you happened to pick the right God.

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

No, I win Pascal's wager even if I go to hell. Because the argument isn't between religions, it's between religion and atheism.

"Pascal argues that a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.), whereas if God does exist, he stands to receive infinite gains (as represented by eternity in Heaven) and avoid infinite losses (an eternity in Hell)."

Pascal obviously assumes there is only a Christian god, but if that one doesn't exist, at least one tried.

If I, as a Christian, go to Zoroastrian or Muslim hell, nevertheless I continue to exist, even if in eternal suffering. Muslim scholars differ as to whether the hell-bound have to stay there for all eternity, or whether Allah's mercy allows eventual escape. 

Now, would I want to escape neverending suffering? I'm sure I would, but regardless, I would have won Pascal's Wager, even if the reward ended up to be a booby prize.

Intriqued, I bought the Kindle edition, which I will read shortly. Thanks for the reference!  

It is not even a wager at that point though. If you choose atheism don’t you also get the booby prize? Or do atheists just cease to exist at death even if there is a God? So you might as well assume there is no God and if God exists you still win Pascal’s Wager.