I dont think this Earth was Adam and Eve's first mortality

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Apostasy is an overstatement. None of these three prophets turned away from the principles of the gospel or made unauthorized changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances. So not a conundrum, not a problem for those who accept this description of apostasy. The priesthood keys for revelation and government (and others) are still delegated, intact and activated.

Well, that's the question isn't it.

Brigham's teachings on Adam were added to the temple and then removed about 25-30 years later.  It didn't really "change" the ordinance but it sure changed the doctrine taught in the ordinance.

An entire generation of Saints were endowed and taught a different teaching on God than those that followed.

Edited September 11, 2022 by JLHPROF

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Where Joseph is concerned I don't consider his changes as contradictory but instead as progressive.  As he received new light he dropped previous understanding.  You can trace his trinitarian or unitarian beginning in the New York time to the binatarian ideas in the 5th Lecture on Faith in Kirtland.  Then on to a Tritheism idea followed by the Social Trinitarian ideas of the everlasting covenant (where today's Church has set up shop) and finally to the King Follett doctrine of exalted men.

It's only contradictory if you think Joseph understood God perfectly when he walked out of the grove.  I don't.  I think he received revelation line upon line and his theology developed with it.

As for his statement about "knowing" God, I think that's as much a reference to his contemporary statement on the second comforter as it is to understanding attributes.

Why not look at Brigham the same way and the revelation following him as line upon line, partial information may lead to incorrect interpretations of revelation?

[teddyaware]

33 minutes ago, CV75 said:

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

“We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.” And those who keep not their first estate and expect us to go through the same thing again are nuts! Selah.

I guess you failed to consider the fact that when one experiences a fall there’s a veil of total forgetfulness that’s placed over the mind, which means that there would be absolutely no sense of doing something they’ve already done.

Also, God himself testifies that it’s his primary work and glory to bring to pass the eternal life of man. If this motivation is indeed God’s foremost focus of salvation, why would he want to have any of his children spend billions of eons stuck in a lower kingdom of glory, without the hope of ever obtaining the fulness of eternal happiness, all because of mistakes they made billions of years ago? Remember, in the 76th section of the Doctrine and Covenants were are informed that there are many other more profound  doctrines pertaining to God’s merciful plan of salvation that were not disclosed in that revelation because the members of the Church are not yet spiritually mature enough and holy to receive them.

Edited September 11, 2022 by teddyaware

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why not look at Brigham the same way and the revelation following him as line upon line, partial information may lead to incorrect interpretations of revelation?

You certainly can.  Continuing revelation should provide new light and new understanding.

The challenge comes if we believe that despite God's inability to lie that future revelation can tell us previous revelation was wrong.

If Heavenly Father really identified himself as Adam in a revelation to Brigham and then told Pres. Kimball that he wasn't then I see no way round the idea that God lied to one of them.  Assuming either/both actually received God's word on the subject.

Continuing revelation is about more knowledge, not dumping previous revealed knowledge.

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

can tell us previous revelation was wrong

Rather previous interpretation of revelation was wrong.

 Just because God always gets it right, doesn’t mean the prophet always does.  Maybe Brigham wasn’t chosen as prophet because of his ability to receive revelation, maybe he was prone to fill in gaps too much and assume inspiration applied to all his ideas when it didn’t or rely on tradition when he shouldn’t have, but he was an excellent prophet for leading the Saints west and establishing them, keeping them united enough to survive and come out stronger and to create a significant loyalty to Joseph such that as a group we wouldn’t lose sight of our foundation.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Well, that's the question isn't it.

Brigham's teachings on Adam were added to the temple and then removed about 25-30 years later.  It didn't really "change" the ordinance but it sure changed the doctrine taught in the ordinance.

An entire generation of Saints were endowed and taught a different teaching on God than those that followed.

And that's OK. Brigham Young's and any other Church President's changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances were done by proper authority, authorized by the decisions of the governing quorums. As we apply the current teachings, in the context of keeping the covenants we are given within the organization we sustain, we become the children of God that we are meant to become.

[JLHPROF]

8 minutes ago, CV75 said:

And that's OK. Brigham Young's and any other Church President's changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances were done by proper authority, authorized by the decisions of the governing quorums. As we apply the current teachings, in the context of keeping the covenants we are given within the organization we sustain, we become the children of God that we are meant to become.

Sure.  But at some point knowing what is actually true or false has to matter, right?

We can't become the children of God without knowledge of truth.  Obedience is only one of God's traits.  Intelligence is another.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

I guess you failed to consider the fact that when one experiences a fall there’s a veil of total forgetfulness that’s placed over the mind, which means that there would be absolutely no sense of doing something they’ve already done.

Also, God himself testifies that it’s his primary work and glory to bring to pass the eternal life of man. If this motivation is indeed God’s foremost focus of salvation, why would he want to have any of his children spend billions of eons stuck in a lower kingdom of glory, without the hope of ever obtaining the fulness of eternal happiness, all because of mistakes they made billions of years ago? Remember, in the 76th section of the Doctrine and Covenants were are informed that there are many other more profound  doctrines pertaining to God’s merciful plan of salvation that were not disclosed in that revelation because the members of the Church are not yet spiritually mature enough and holy to receive them.

Evidently you did not consider that i considered it...

You already speculated that we fall more than once, so “the [so-called] fact” is but another speculation to justify the first. Remember, we have one veil of forgetfulness in the plan of happiness as we teach it, which plan we sustained before we (including Christ) passed through the veil. And “second estate” (mortality) is singular, not plural. As far as questioning God’s motives, He was not unjust then, and is not unjust now.  So, to paraphrase, “those who fail to keep their second estate (ahem, not estates) and expect try, try again are nuts! Selah.”

D&C 76 says this, and it is not about doctrine, but about the ultimate extent of the glory, might and dominion of the particular works and mysteries (perdition and the kingdoms of glory) presented in this vision; glory, might and dominion that are only to be seen by the power of the Holy Spirit to the qualified:

113 This is the end of the vision which we saw, which we were commanded to write while we were yet in the Spirit.

114 But ^agreat and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the ^bmysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;

115 Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not ^alawful for man to utter;

116 Neither is man ^acapable to make them known, for they are only to be ^bseen and ^cunderstood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who ^dlove him, and purify themselves before him;

117 To whom he grants this privilege of ^aseeing and knowing for themselves;

118 That through the power and manifestation of the Spirit, while in the flesh, they may be able to ^abear his ^bpresence in the world of glory.

119 And to God and the Lamb be ^aglory, and honor, and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

The meaning of this passage as you have described it comes across as more speculation to justify the other two speculations.

[CV75]

36 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Sure.  But at some point knowing what is actually true or false has to matter, right?

We can't become the children of God without knowledge of truth.  Obedience is only one of God's traits.  Intelligence is another.

There are many kinds of obedience, sacrifice, consecration, morality, intelligence and every other possible godly attribute. Hence the kingdoms of glory. They all matter, which is why the earth becomes a Urim and Thummim and we get a white stone -- after we become the kind of children's of God that God wants us to become.

Knowing the salient facts does matter, when God decides the time, circumstance, purpose, etc. comes that is important to know them, and when they can be managed responsibly within our respective glory and scope.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Sure.  But at some point knowing what is actually true or false has to matter, right?

We can't become the children of God without knowledge of truth.  Obedience is only one of God's traits.  Intelligence is another.

Yes, but I don’t think we are all that close yet to be able to actually point to anything we have learn and say that is true.  I doubt if our brains can contemplate the level od truths that God works with. At best, I think we may be able to say several of these revelations are helping to push us towards the truth. And sometimes they stop helping and start to hinder and others need to replace them. 

If Joseph gave us the true, full endowment, then why would he say it would take us such a long time to truly learn the endowment after we died?

Edited September 12, 2022 by Calm

[manol]

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I guess you failed to consider the fact that when one experiences a fall there’s a veil of total forgetfulness that’s placed over the mind, which means that there would be absolutely no sense of doing something they’ve already done.

Also, God himself testifies that it’s his primary work and glory to bring to pass the eternal life of man. If this motivation is indeed God’s foremost focus of salvation, why would he want to have any of his children spend billions of eons stuck in a lower kingdom of glory, without the hope of ever obtaining the fulness of eternal happiness, all because of mistakes they made billions of years ago? Remember, in the 76th section of the Doctrine and Covenants were are informed that there are many other more profound  doctrines pertaining to God’s merciful plan of salvation that were not disclosed in that revelation because the members of the Church are not yet spiritually mature enough and holy to receive them.

I hadn't thought of it like that.  I think you are onto something!

The King Follet sermon describes an interesting sequence of events: 

We first go from "grace to grace" (perhaps indicating multiple probations in which we are saved by grace) and then progress to going from "exaltation to exaltation (!!!)" (perhaps indicating multiple probations in which we "aced it").

I don't have a scriptural basis for this, but would not be surprised if, by the time it's all over, each of us will have walked every possible path, or at least every possible kind of path, on our way to overcoming "all things".   I don't see how one mortal lifetime is enough for any of us to overcome "all things". 

[Pyreaux]

Y

On 9/10/2022 at 9:37 PM, nuclearfuels said:

I'll skip the journal of discourses references as that's not considered canon though I love the "from the dust creation story is like telling your kids that a stork delivers babies" citation: ^[27] Musser argued that Elohim is the name given to Adam’s God. Within this narrative, Adam and Eve were created on another earth governed by Elohim. In general, Musser referred to the Adam and Eve account as a “stork story” (Michael, Our Father and Our God, 100). Like parents teaching their children about storks delivering babies, Musser argues that Moses was inspired to write the account of Adam formed out of dust and Eve from Adam’s rib as a way of explaining the origins of humanity in a way that met “the mental capacities of his day” (Michael, Our Father and Our God, 100).

So since we pass thru a veil before mortal birth, again at mortal death isn't it possible that we passed thru a veil when we were spiritually born (from Intelligences state)?

Does it not then hold that after death, as we progress to become more and more like our Heavenly Parents, we might pass through other veils?

Surely God the Man (current question on this forum) passed through a veil at His mortal birth, mortal death, and as He progressed to become more like His Father. It also doesn't seem logical to me that our Savior was Heavenly Father's Savior. ("As Jesus said: 'Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.' " [John 5:19.]https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-11-i-seek-not-mine-own-will-but-the-will-of-the-father?lang=eng&adobe_mc_ref=https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-11-i-seek-not-mine-own-will-but-the-will-of-the-father

If we all are supposed tobecome more like the Savior and His/our Parents won't we at some very distant point be called to serve in callings such as Adam and Eve - and pass thru a veil which applies to the future earth we'll create?

I've wondered if the 'sons of perdition (destruction) thrown into the lake of fire are not utterly destroyed. Intelligences are eternal, and I wonder if they might be able to be reduced to their primal self again, forgetting all and get to start over. A sort of intelligence veil of forgetfulness. Reminds me of the Jewish Legends of the heavenly River of Rigyon, a river of fire that angels ritually immerse in or literally die in and are born from. 

There have been many who thought that the story of Adam and Eve is a literal 'stork story'. That the serpent is a phallic symbol, the forbidden fruit is coitus, and the knowledge is carnal. To 'know' someone 'Biblically' as it were. It may not be what you mean by it.

I've often thought the later prophets merely reject the interpretation of the Adam God theory by our apostates, the FLDS church, not the words of Brigham Young who is not around to explain or defend them. I personally like the interpretation that Brigham may have meant there were two Adams in the sense that God, who is a man before Adam was created, would make him the true first man, the proto-Adam. Not that the proto-Adam and the Edenic-Adam are the same. It might be Biblically inspired, as there are two Creation accounts of Adam and Eve, just as the Jew suppose it was just the creation of Adam's first wife made from clay, in Lilith legends, Brigham might assume the first Adam in Genesis 1 was God making his own body, and Edenic Adam was made in Genesis 2.

And if not so, I do not suppose God must have been subject to any sort of veil. Such is for testing mortals, I suppose He might be like those who obtain perfection without a birth, perhaps all he needed was to create a golem, or ate some fruit and gain enough particles until he gained a physical form. I don't pretend to dictate what might be similar or different about God's mortal sojourn when compared to ours.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Pyreaux

[Calm]

1 hour ago, manol said:

   I don't see how one mortal lifetime is enough for any of us to overcome "all things". 

No, but it may be enough that someone has and then everyone shares their experience with all the others as we become one and therefore, it amounts to the same thing as us having each lived billions of lives. 

[manol]

54 minutes ago, Calm said:

No, but it may be enough that someone has and then everyone shares their experience with all the others as we become one and therefore, it amounts to the same thing as us having each lived billions of lives. 

Yes!   I think what you describe here is probably more likely than what I described to teddyaware.

And regarding that one-ness... maybe instead of at some future point "becoming" something we inherently are not, we reach a state of being something we inherently already are. 

In other words, maybe we already are one, simultaneously moving along billions of different timelines.  Maybe there's a very real validity to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"; if others are actually you on a different timeline, then what you do unto "them" you do unto yourself.  Maybe there's a higher meaning that's been hidden in plain sight for all these years in "love your neighbor as yourself".  Seen through this lens, some of the insane-sounding teachings of Jesus become logical:  "Love your enemies", "forgive seventy times seven", "turn the other cheek", "from him that would borrow turn thou not away", "judge not, that ye be not judged", and so forth.  If the "other" is you on a different timeline, well that changes things, doesn't it?  

I do not "know" that the above scenario is "true", but I have found it to be useful. 

Maybe there is no "us and them".   Maybe there is only "us". 

Edited September 12, 2022 by manol

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Why did Christ teach in parables?  Why did John the Revelator write in symbols?  Why Joseph receive D&C 101?

It's not about intelligence.

In Ether 4, Moroni says this things were not revealed because of unbelief.

Quote

14 Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.

 

[Tacenda]

On 9/10/2022 at 8:37 PM, nuclearfuels said:

I'll skip the journal of discourses references as that's not considered canon though I love the "from the dust creation story is like telling your kids that a stork delivers babies" citation: ^[27] Musser argued that Elohim is the name given to Adam’s God. Within this narrative, Adam and Eve were created on another earth governed by Elohim. In general, Musser referred to the Adam and Eve account as a “stork story” (Michael, Our Father and Our God, 100). Like parents teaching their children about storks delivering babies, Musser argues that Moses was inspired to write the account of Adam formed out of dust and Eve from Adam’s rib as a way of explaining the origins of humanity in a way that met “the mental capacities of his day” (Michael, Our Father and Our God, 100).

So since we pass thru a veil before mortal birth, again at mortal death isn't it possible that we passed thru a veil when we were spiritually born (from Intelligences state)?

Does it not then hold that after death, as we progress to become more and more like our Heavenly Parents, we might pass through other veils?

Surely God the Man (current question on this forum) passed through a veil at His mortal birth, mortal death, and as He progressed to become more like His Father. It also doesn't seem logical to me that our Savior was Heavenly Father's Savior. ("As Jesus said: 'Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.' " [John 5:19.]https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-11-i-seek-not-mine-own-will-but-the-will-of-the-father?lang=eng&adobe_mc_ref=https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-11-i-seek-not-mine-own-will-but-the-will-of-the-father

If we all are supposed tobecome more like the Savior and His/our Parents won't we at some very distant point be called to serve in callings such as Adam and Eve - and pass thru a veil which applies to the future earth we'll create?

And possibly incest, this never really occurred to me, unless I was in denial. What or how did the three sons have children??? 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Tacenda

[JustAnAustralian]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

What or how did the three sons have children??? 

By having sex the same way as everyone else?

It's pretty clear the Old Testament doesn't care about women in general, so it's not surprising that daughters of Adam and Eve weren't mentioned. But it does say that Cain went into a different land and had a son with his wife, so there were clearly women around.

As far as LDS specifics, Moses 5 explicitly says Adam and Eve had sons and daughters (and those were before Cain and Abel were even mentioned as being born).

 

As far as the incest aspect, if Adam and Eve were created in a form without diseases or genetic conditions, there would be no inherent genetic issues to be concerned with incest wise. If Adam and Eve were just two individuals in the garden with other people already outside the garden, there would be no need for incest.

Edited September 15, 2022 by JustAnAustralian