Without guile - Joseph Smith

[Rain]

This is for those who have really studied Joseph Smith.  I don't want something you just grabbed from the internet.  I don't want a list of all of his mistakes.  I'm asking about his personality and nature.

Have you ever known someone who was without guile?  There was a young man in one of our wards that was like that.

We first came across him the first week in that ward.  It was the primary program and he sang with joy quite loudly over everyone else, but joy was the only thing you could like about his singing.  Over the years we knew him he practiced and practiced and ended up in a quartet and sounded good. He was very smart and he definitely made mistakes, but overall there was a childlike nature to him. A naivety in some ways. 

I was surprised this morning when I found out my husband thinks of Joseph Smith this way.  If you have really studied Joseph did you get this impression of him?  Over the years he went through a lot so if he had it he might have lost it.  But overall was his personality like this or something different?

[teddyaware]

8 minutes ago, Rain said:

This is for those who have really studied Joseph Smith.  I don't want something you just grabbed from the internet.  I don't want a list of all of his mistakes.  I'm asking about his personality and nature.

Have you ever known someone who was without guile?  There was a young man in one of our wards that was like that.

We first came across him the first week in that ward.  It was the primary program and he sang with joy quite loudly over everyone else, but joy was the only thing you could like about his singing.  Over the years we knew him he practiced and practiced and ended up in a quartet and sounded good. He was very smart and he definitely made mistakes, but overall there was a childlike nature to him. A naivety in some ways. 

I was surprised this morning when I found out my husband thinks of Joseph Smith this way.  If you have really studied Joseph did you get this impression of him?  Over the years he went through a lot so if he had it he might have lost it.  But overall was his personality like this or something different?

           

 

[Rain]

15 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

           

 

 

27 minutes ago, Rain said:

This is for those who have really studied Joseph Smith.  I don't want something you just grabbed from the internet. 

 

[JLHPROF]

No.

I've studied Joseph and his life in depth.  

Guile is defined as sly or cunning intelligence.  It's a word with a negative association.

Joseph wasn't sly or cunning in the negative sense.  He was intelligent and witty enough to remove the innocent part of "without guile".  He wasn't childlike or naive at all.

He had many teachings that came across as "cunning" in a good way.

"If you have power to seal on earth & in heaven then we should be crafty the first thing you do go & seal on earth your sons & daughters unto yourself & yourself unto your fathers in eternal glory & go ahead and not go back but use a little craftiness & seal all you can & when you get to heaven tell your father that what you seal on earth should be sealed in heaven I will walk through the gate of heaven and claim what I seal & those that follow me & my council The Lord once told me that what I asked for I should have I have been afraid to aske to ask God to kill my enemies lest some of them should peradventure should repent."

Doesn't sound like an absence of guile in his personality.  And that's just one example.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

There are many who have believed that someone they have truly believed in, be they past or present, was indeed, “without guile”. Meaning them “to be free of deceit, cunning, hypocrisy, and dishonesty in thought or action”, or in short, without sin”.  Believing at that time,  they could and would have fit such a description. I doubt anyone would believe this about themselves. Even Jesus Christ once said of himself. “…Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, God”. (Luke 18:19)

Of course we all believe the term “without guile”, applies to the Lord Jesus Christ, but I think the term is overused for many historical figures in the OT, the NT, The BOM, and the early Restored Church, and many past leaders. However, I truly doubt that any of them believed this about  themselves. We are all our worst judges, and our harshest critics, to a man or woman! 

[Rain]

57 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

There are many who have believed that someone they have truly believed in, be they past or present, was indeed, “without guile”. Meaning them “to be free of deceit, cunning, hypocrisy, and dishonesty in thought or action”, or in short, without sin”.  Believing at that time,  they could and would have fit such a description. I doubt anyone would believe this about themselves. Even Jesus Christ once said of himself. “…Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, God”. (Luke 18:19)

Of course we all believe the term “without guile”, applies to the Lord Jesus Christ, but I think the term is overused for many historical figures in the OT, the NT, The BOM, and the early Restored Church, and many past leaders. However, I truly doubt that any of them believed this about  themselves. We are all our worst judges, and our harshest critics, to a man or woman! 

This is more along the lines of what I am defining "without guile" as: 

"A person without guile is a person of innocence, honest intent, and pure motives, whose life reflects the simple practice of conforming his daily actions to principles of integrity"

[Rain]

6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

No.

I've studied Joseph and his life in depth.  

Guile is defined as sly or cunning intelligence.  It's a word with a negative association.

Joseph wasn't sly or cunning in the negative sense.  He was intelligent and witty enough to remove the innocent part of "without guile".  He wasn't childlike or naive at all.

He had many teachings that came across as "cunning" in a good way.

"If you have power to seal on earth & in heaven then we should be crafty the first thing you do go & seal on earth your sons & daughters unto yourself & yourself unto your fathers in eternal glory & go ahead and not go back but use a little craftiness & seal all you can & when you get to heaven tell your father that what you seal on earth should be sealed in heaven I will walk through the gate of heaven and claim what I seal & those that follow me & my council The Lord once told me that what I asked for I should have I have been afraid to aske to ask God to kill my enemies lest some of them should peradventure should repent."

Doesn't sound like an absence of guile in his personality.  And that's just one example.

Thank you.  It surprised me when he told me how he viewed Joseph, because I never thought of him that way. So I wondered if I was missing something.  

[Calm]

58 minutes ago, Rain said:

This is more along the lines of what I am defining "without guile" as: 

"A person without guile is a person of innocence, honest intent, and pure motives, whose life reflects the simple practice of conforming his daily actions to principles of integrity"

Young Joseph comes across that way, opening his heart to a minister without fear of rejection only to get treated poorly…but by the time he is eloping with Emma and hiding the plates, he has been involved in treasure hunting, business ventures with Mom and Dad iirc, and lots of experiences and I highly doubt he was that innocent/untouched by the wickedness of the world by his adult life.  He had integrity in many of his dealings (I believe he persuaded or attempted to persuade Josiah Stowell to stop digging for treasure when it was fruitless if I remember Stowell’s testimony correctly and he paid back debts iirc from the Kirtland Safety Society bust at least according to Brigham Young or was attempting to even though he was beyond the reach of those creditors by then, but he also lied to Emma or at least didn’t inform her of the truth and let her believe a falsehood in regards to his sealings).

Edited July 25, 2022 by Calm

[Meadowchik]

My estimation of Joseph Smith's character plays a very important role in my relationship to the church. Therefore it has been a huge factor in my life inasmuch as my leaving the church has been a huge factor.

It was probably decades ago and when I was still deeply believing that I ceased to believe he was without guile. I can pinpoint it as about that time as a child that I was learning that not everyone was innocent and transparent. It wasn't an admission I made of any guilt on his part in my mind, but an admission that he was a complex man with competing concerns, especially when it came to leading a church into Restoration.

[JAHS]

Here is a little peek into Joseph Smith' character. My great great grandmother Ellen Marie Partington had been adopted by Willard Richards, Secretary to the prophet, and had some interactions with the Prophet. From her diary:

[smac97]

A few thoughts:

1. Understanding What "Guile" Means: 

From a 2018 Liahona article by Elder Terence M. Vinson:

Quote

This word “guile” is defined in the dictionary as “insidious cunning, or deception, or duplicity”. So Nathanael is “without deception”. In fact, this quality of being without deception is sometimes called “integrity” or “trustworthiness”.
...

{W}e can be different if we decide to live with honour and integrity as true disciples of our Saviour and Redeemer. We must be different! Such was the case with the people of Ammon who decided that they would be just that.

“And they were among the people of Nephi, and also numbered among the people who were of the church of God. And they were also distinguished for their zeal towards God, and also towards men; for they were perfectly honest and upright in all things; and they were firm in the faith of Christ, even unto the end” (Alma 27:27).

As members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we should stand as beacons of honour, virtue, and integrity to the world. Many members in West Africa are already distinguished from other men and women because of their perfect honesty and uprightness. Will our God be content with anything less from any member of His Church, and from any who take His name upon them?

Let us, then, be as Nathanael and receive a similar response from our Saviour when we come to stand before Him, as we surely will. Let us hear our name spoken in that great day as He, hopefully, says to you and to me: “Behold, a man [or woman] in whom there is no guile”.

And In 1988 Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin gave a General Conference talk entitled "Without Guile."  Some excerpts:

Quote

When Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him, he exclaimed of Nathanael, “Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!” (John 1:47). At that moment, Nathanael recognized that Jesus could see into his heart and asked, in surprise, “Whence knowest thou me?” (John 1:48). The Savior’s reply demonstrated an even greater power of perception. He told Nathanael that before Philip had called him to come and see, Jesus saw him under a fig tree.

Nathanael apparently had undergone some surpassing spiritual experience while praying, or meditating, or worshipping under a fig tree. The Lord, though absent in body, had been present with Nathanael in spirit. Nathanael then recognized the Savior as the Christ and said, “Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel” (John 1:49).

Nathanael spoke without guile. The words came from his heart. They expressed a deep conviction of truth. He followed the Savior.

To be without guile is to be free of deceit, cunning, hypocrisy, and dishonesty in thought or action. To beguile is to deceive or lead astray, as Lucifer beguiled Eve in the Garden of Eden. A person without guile is a person of innocence, honest intent, and pure motives, whose life reflects the simple practice of conforming his daily actions to principles of integrity.

The psalmist wrote, “Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile” (Ps. 32:2), and then admonished, “Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile” (Ps. 34:13).

In the New Testament, we learn that the Savior was without guile (see 1 Pet. 2:22) and that “he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile” (1 Pet. 3:10).

In latter-day scriptures, we read that the Lord called Edward Partridge to be bishop for the Church because “his heart is pure before me, for he is like unto Nathanael of old, in whom there is no guile” (D&C 41:11). In another revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith the Lord said, “My servant George Miller is without guile; he may be trusted because of the integrity of his heart; and for the love which he has to my testimony I, the Lord, love him” (D&C 124:20).
...
I believe the Savior was seeking purity of soul in those he called to be his twelve Apostles. When he spoke of being without guile, he referred to something far deeper than outward appearance. He was reaching into the soul, to the very heart of righteousness. He was touching the key to goodness and to the Christlike life.

To be without guile is to be pure in heart—an essential virtue of those who would be counted among true followers of Christ. He taught in the Sermon on the Mount, “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God” (Matt. 5:8; see also 3 Ne. 12:8). He revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith that Zion is the pure in heart (see D&C 97:21) and that a house is to be built in Zion in which the pure in heart shall see God (see D&C 97:10–16).

If we are without guile, we are honest, true, and righteous. All of these are attributes of Deity and are required of the Saints. Those who are honest are fair and truthful in their speech, straightforward in their dealings, free of deceit, and above stealing, misrepresentation, or any other fraudulent action. Honesty is of God and dishonesty of the devil; the devil was a liar from the beginning. Righteousness is living a life that is in harmony with the laws, principles, and ordinances of the gospel.

As parents know, little children are, by their nature, without guile. They speak the thoughts of their minds without reservation or hesitance as we have learned as parents when they embarrass us at times. They do not deceive. They set an example of being without guile. The Savior taught of this attribute of little children when his disciples asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
...
What are the Latter-day Saints to do? The answer is plain. The Saints are to be absolutely without guile in every aspect of their lives: in their homes and families, Church callings, all business dealings, and, especially, the private and personal parts of their lives into which only they and the Lord see.
...
Yes, the Saints can be free of guile—and must be, to be prepared for the Savior’s second coming. The Saints can provide a leavening influence and can demonstrate the value of guileless living. As we develop this divine attribute, we can become a shining light to the world. Certainly, we can teach the principles of the gospel and bless the families of the earth by following the perfect example of the Savior as one who is without guile.

2. Association Between Being "Without Guile" and Perfectionism: 

The foregoing exhortations about being "without guile" can be difficult to address because they appear to be calling for, well, something nigh unto perfection:

• "'{T}he people of Nephi ... were also distinguished for their zeal towards God, and also towards men; for they were perfectly honest and upright in all things.'"
• "Many members in West Africa are already distinguished from other men and women because of their perfect honesty and uprightness. Will our God be content with anything less from any member of His Church, and from any who take His name upon them?"
• "To be without guile is to be free of deceit, cunning, hypocrisy, and dishonesty in thought or action."
• "A person without guile is a person of innocence, honest intent, and pure motives, whose life reflects the simple practice of conforming his daily actions to principles of integrity."
• "When {Jesus} spoke of being without guile, he referred to something far deeper than outward appearance. He was reaching into the soul, to the very heart of righteousness."
• "To be without guile is to be pure in heart—an essential virtue of those who would be counted among true followers of Christ."
• "If we are without guile, we are honest, true, and righteous. All of these are attributes of Deity and are required of the Saints."
• "What are the Latter-day Saints to do? The answer is plain. The Saints are to be absolutely without guile in every aspect of their lives..."

However, as with so many other points of doctrine, the concept of being "without guile" should, I think, be understood as being an aspirational process, rather than a discrete event.  A journey toward and ever getting closer to a destination.  

And perhaps most important, being or becoming "perfect," as we are commanded by God, is less focused on being utterly without flaw throughout life, and is instead more about being/becoming complete, as by entering into a covenant relationship with God.  See, e.g., this article 2017 General Conference talk by Elder Holland: Be Ye Therefore Perfect—Eventually

Some excerpts:

Quote

Around the Church I hear many who struggle with this issue: “I am just not good enough.” “I fall so far short.” “I will never measure up.” I hear this from teenagers. I hear it from missionaries. I hear it from new converts. I hear it from lifelong members. One insightful Latter-day Saint, Sister Darla Isackson, has observed that Satan has somehow managed to make covenants and commandments seem like curses and condemnations. For some he has turned the ideals and inspiration of the gospel into self-loathing and misery-making.

What I now say in no way denies or diminishes any commandment God has ever given us. I believe in His perfection, and I know we are His spiritual sons and daughters with divine potential to become as He is. I also know that, as children of God, we should not demean or vilify ourselves, as if beating up on ourselves is somehow going to make us the person God wants us to become. No! With a willingness to repent and a desire for increased righteousness always in our hearts, I would hope we could pursue personal improvement in a way that doesn’t include getting ulcers or anorexia, feeling depressed or demolishing our self-esteem. That is not what the Lord wants for Primary children or anyone else who honestly sings, “I’m trying to be like Jesus.”

To put this issue in context, may I remind all of us that we live in a fallen world and for now we are a fallen people. We are in the telestial kingdom; that is spelled with a t, not a c. As President Russell M. Nelson has taught, here in mortality perfection is still “pending.”

So I believe that Jesus did not intend His sermon on this subject to be a verbal hammer for battering us about our shortcomings. No, I believe He intended it to be a tribute to who and what God the Eternal Father is and what we can achieve with Him in eternity. In any case, I am grateful to know that in spite of my imperfections, at least God is perfect—that at least He is, for example, able to love His enemies, because too often, due to the “natural man” and woman in us, you and I are sometimes that enemy. How grateful I am that at least God can bless those who despitefully use Him because, without wanting or intending to do so, we all despitefully use Him sometimes. I am grateful that God is merciful and a peacemaker because I need mercy and the world needs peace. Of course, all we say of the Father’s virtues we also say of His Only Begotten Son, who lived and died unto the same perfection.
...
My brothers and sisters, except for Jesus, there have been no flawless performances on this earthly journey we are pursuing, so while in mortality let’s strive for steady improvement without obsessing over what behavioral scientists call “toxic perfectionism.” We should avoid that latter excessive expectation of ourselves and of others and, I might add, of those who are called to serve in the Church—which for Latter-day Saints means everyone, for we are all called to serve somewhere.
...
Brothers and sisters, every one of us aspires to a more Christlike life than we often succeed in living. If we admit that honestly and are trying to improve, we are not hypocrites; we are human. May we refuse to let our own mortal follies, and the inevitable shortcomings of even the best men and women around us, make us cynical about the truths of the gospel, the truthfulness of the Church, our hope for our future, or the possibility of godliness. If we persevere, then somewhere in eternity our refinement will be finished and complete—which is the New Testament meaning of perfection.

And here (FAIR article) :

Quote

As an "aspirational" instruction

Moroni 10:32 and similar passages in the Bible can also be read as aspirational, with a mark one aims to; not a statement of soteriology (theology of salvation). Jesus' words to love God with all one's heart, mind, and strength and other-like passages in the Bible are of the same character; God does not literally expect perfect obedience to the law (whether the Universal law or the Law of Moses [moral and/or ceremonial divisions]), but expects us to aspire to such in this life.

In the Bible, Christ says "follow me", "be ye therefore perfect", “sell all and give”, and "keep my commandments". Like Moroni 10:32,these commands seem quite absolute, but they are just as easily understood to be aspirational in nature.

Evangelical Christian scholar Millard Erickson says something similar;

"Certain difficulties attach to assuming [we can achieve freedom from sin], however. One is that it seems contradictory to repeatedly exhort Christians to a victorious spotless life unless it is a real possibility. But does this necessarily follow? We may have a standard, an ideal, toward which we press, but which we do not expect to reach within a finite period of time. It has been observed that no one has ever reached the North Star by sailing or flying toward it. That does not change the fact that it is still the mark toward which we press, our measure of “northerliness.” Similarly, although we may never be perfectly sanctified within this life, we shall be in eternity beyond and hence should presently aim to arrive as close to complete sanctification as we can." --- Christian Theology, 2nd Edition, Baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI, p. 986

Moroni 10:32 in the Book of Mormon can be read similar to biblical admonishments. They reflect God’s standard/requirement. Consider that when God admonishes us, He really can’t make any allowance for sin (Alma 45:16, Doctrine and Covenants 1:31). So He tells us to be perfect. While it is theoretically possible for us to keep every commandment all of the time, in practice it is impossible. God has set a goal for us, and the goal is perfection. We aspire to reach it so that we can become what we are meant to become.

And here (Book of Mormon Central article by Stephen Smoot) :

Quote

What it means to be perfect

One of the things that Jesus commands in the Sermon on the Mount is to be perfect. Perfection is a high bar to reach and can often cause followers of Christ to feel inadequate or unworthy. It’s easy to feel the pressure to always do what’s right and to never make mistakes. Jesus specifically said:

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

While many followers of Christ may feel overwhelmed and discouraged by such a commandment, maybe we don’t need to be so hard on ourselves. God knew that, except for the Savior Himself, mankind would universally give in to sin and temptation. That is why God sent Christ to atone for our sins. Helping mankind learn and grow from their mistakes is a fundamental part of God’s plan for His children.

The meaning behind the Greek

The word perfect in Matthew 5:48 is telieos, which can mean “finished” or “completed.” It does not necessarily mean “without mistakes or flaws.” The Hebrew equivalent of this word also has a lot more to do with completion than with flawlessness. When we belittle ourselves for making mistakes, we may be reading into the scripture more than Jesus or the author of Matthew ever intended.

The emphasis on covenants

In addition, the Book of Mormon’s version of this sermon helps us understand that Christ’s commandment to be perfect may be more about covenants than about our current sinlessness. In the Book of Mormon, Jesus precedes the commandment to be perfect with a discussion about the old laws and covenants. Elsewhere in the Old Testament, where perfection is brought up, it is in the context of one’s devotion to God and His covenants. It’s possible that when Jesus commands us to be perfect, He is commanding us to keep our covenants to God as best we can.

Jesus was only perfect after his resurrection

In the Book of Mormon, Jesus uniquely commands followers to be perfect “as I, or your Father” is perfect. In the New Testament, Jesus only commands His followers to be perfect like the Father. This is an important distinction because it shows that even Jesus Christ, who lived a sinless life, did not consider Himself “perfect” until His mission was completed. Likewise, we can understand that while we make mistakes in this life, as long as we are always striving to be loyal to God and our covenants, we will one day be perfect like Jesus Christ.

And here:

See also here: 

• “Be Ye Therefore Perfect” (talk by Elder Cecil O. Samuelson)
• “Be Ye Therefore Perfect”: Beyond the Perfectionist Paradigm
• Be Ye Therefore Perfect . . . Eventually: 10 Ways to Combat Toxic Perfectionism
• Is Perfectionism Really about “Be Ye Therefore Perfect”?

3. "Guile" and "Perfection" and Joseph Smith:

Based on the foregoing, I tend to want to judge Joseph Smith in the same way I would hope to be judged.  That is, not with an expectation or requirement of being utterly without flaw or sin, but rather someone who

• A) is sincerely and meaningfully aspiring to these things,
• B) has entered into a covenant relationship with God and is striving to keep said covenants,
• C) is regularly turning to repentance and seeking forgiveness for when behaviors fall short of aspirations, and when flaws in covenant-keeping happen, 
• D) during the duration of things hopes to "run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2); and
• E) as to all other fellow travellers (including figures such as Joseph Smith) strives to apply Mormon 9:31: "Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been."

As for Joseph Smith's overall character relative to sincerity or guile, consider these remarks by Daniel C. Peterson (addressing claims that Joseph Smith used deceit regarding the reality of the Gold Plates) :

Quote

OK, so let’s look a little more in detail: Joseph had no plates. This is what most critics say; there were none.

All right, the first option is that he knew that he had no plates. OK. Now, this runs into a number of issues. You have to ask first of all, Was this deliberate, was it cynical or was it pious? Was he a cynical fraud, just a con-artist, 19th century con man?

I think you run into issues right there. One of the places you run into issues is with Joseph Smith’s writings, which are now being published, the personal writings of Joseph Smith, the Joseph Smith Papers. If Joseph Smith is not sincere, then I can’t judge sincerity in another human being.

This is a man who in his most personal private writings, letters to his wife, personal journal entries, they’re full of prayers. He’s praying all the time. Oh, Lord, help your servant, help me. Writing to his wife, Emma, praying, expressing prayers for her. Telling his children to be sure they say their prayers at night, this sort of thing. All the time coming across as a believer. There’s nothing, certainly there’s nothing at all in the early Joseph Smith that you could say points to someone who’s a cynical, manipulative deceiver. It’s just not there. He doesn’t let the mask fall at all. If he is one, there’s no evidence for it that I can see.

Now I know some people will come back and they will say what about plural marriage later on? Well that’s a difficult case. And we can argue that. I’m willing to argue that. I don’t want to do it here. That’s quite far afield. But I’m talking about the early Joseph Smith. I don’t think you see the cynical deceiver anywhere in Joseph’s character. But you certainly don’t see it in 1828. You don’t see it in 1830. This is a young man, I mean, you even have descriptions of him going out into the woods to pray, just as he says he did with the First Vision. This was a habit of his. He would go out into the woods to pray when he was concerned about something, when he was worried, when he was upset or indecisive and so on. There’s a continual pattern of this kind of thing. He is a believer. If you can see anything from the writings that are coming out, he really believes that he’s receiving revelations. He’s not a cynical con artist.

And there’s other evidence. Would a cynical con artist have put up with some of the stuff he endured?

Think of Liberty Jail. If you’ve ever been in Liberty Jail, you know how small that area was and how grim and dark it was. I had the occasion, the privilege a couple of years ago, I guess, to go back and speak in Liberty Jail. I never thought I would have that chance. It was for the anniversary of the building of the visitors center, I think. And I stood actually above the space in which Joseph Smith was confined. And what really worried me was I noticed they put the podium in such a place that I was standing on the trap door. And I just wondered, you know, if the talk goes on too long or they don’t like it, does it just open up, woosh, I’m down there with Joseph and Sidney.

But he was genuinely miserable. I think you have to understand that he came close to despair. You can imagine what it must have been like for him there. When he was writing this epistle, the famous epistle in Section 121: “O Lord, where art thou?”, I don’t think you should see that as just literary flourish or play acting. He really is feeling abandoned. This is a terrible time for him.

And it’s made all the more terrible by the fact that, well, I’ve got ahead of myself, by the fact that the saints are being driven out and he’s not able to do anything about it. Can you imagine? If you had any trace of human conscience at all, if you were lying, this would be almost impossible to endure. And he would have reached his absolute low point, but he comes through it faith intact, as does his brother Hyrum, one of the witnesses, so on and so forth.

Think of what else happened to the saints because of his claims. Can you imagine, again, if you were just making up a story and there were people literally dying for you, for this story you’re telling, gosh, you would have to be a sociopath to be able to put up with that, but there’s, again, no evidence that he was anything of the kind.

And then, of course, there’s his own ultimate martyrdom. He actually thought he was going to die at Liberty, but he did die just a few years later. And he pretty well knew that that was going to be the end result. Richard Anderson published an article years ago,[2] which didn’t get wide circulation, showing Joseph’s awareness of the fact that after about 1838-1839, that he was going to die fairly shortly, that there had been a kind of divine protection over him but he sensed that that had been, or would be shortly, removed, that his work was drawing to its end.

Now it’s easy to sit here and say, well, a con artist might go through it all to the end, but not many would. Again this argues for sincerity rather than cynicism and conscious deceit. He does actually die there and he dies faithful to his testimony. So does Hyrum Smith, and that’s striking to me. That Hyrum, the elder brother, accompanies him to Carthage Jail.

And, of course, there’s also the evidence that even if you decide that Joseph is a conscious deceiver, there are other people who are seeing thing with him. Most of his revelatory experiences are shared. After the First Vision, over and over and over again there are other people there who see things, heft things with him.

So the cynical deception thing just doesn’t cut it. It doesn’t do it.

I don't need Joseph Smith to have been perfect.  I just need him to have been sincere, to have really experienced the things he claims.  The First Vision and other theophanies.  The Gold Plates and his translation of them.  The restoration of the Priesthood.  The revelations.  Discerning the verity of these things is principally an exercise in study and faith and prayer.  

If these things happened, then I will honor Joseph Smith for his virtues and efforts, forgive him his flaws and shortcomings, and leave judgment of him to the Lord.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited July 25, 2022 by smac97

[Kenngo1969]

I'm sorry I don't have something of greater substance to contribute to the thread.  I'm preparing for a family outing at the moment.  But I think there is a difference between naivete and guilelessness.  I think that by no means was Joseph Smith naive.  (If, at the outset of his prophetic calling, he was, I think that, quickly, his experiences cured him of that particular malady or mentality.)  I do think, however, that Brother Joseph was guileless.

I'm reminded of the Scripture in which Christ is reported to have told his Apostles,  “Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves. Be ye therefore wise as serpents and harmless as doves" (Matthew 10:16, KJV).  I don't think it is possible for one who is naive to be as wise as a serpent, but I do think it is possible for one who is guileless to be both wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove.  As the prophetic mantle fell with greater and greater weight on Brother Joseph, I think this is a state that he grew into.