Why Satan had access to the Garden of Eden

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

The devil’s motivation to persuade Eve, and then Adam, to partake of the forbidden fruit was so that he could get the opportunity, within the divinely ordained system of human agency, to drag as many of the sons and daughters of God down into the misery of hell with him, and this as an act of hateful revenge against the God whom he hates. The Lord’s motivation to allow the fall to occur was so that his children could be tested in an existence that’s predicated on the eternal principle of opposition in all things, for by this means the Lord could best help his children to dynamically advance in their spiritual progress, and then finally save them eternally in one of his three heavenly mansions of glory.

Whether you or anyone else likes it or not, existence can only be affirmed on the eternal principle of there being diametric opposition in all things. And the only way to have a meaningful existence is to be engaged in the eternal battle between the forces of good and the forces of evil. If our first parents hadn’t fallen, their existence would have been meaningless, purposeless and devoid of abundant knowledge, wisdom and joy.

Those who spend their lives refusing to engage valiantly in the eternal war against the very real forces of evil, chaos and destruction (due to the fact they recoil at the thought that “there must needs be opposition in all things”) will eventually be relegated to either the terrestrial or telestial kingdoms of glory, after the resurrection and final judgement.  But we’re told that both of these heavenly realms are so wonderful and glorious that they are beyond present human comprehension, which means God is a very merciful and compassionate Being. But wishing that there didn’t have to be an eternal war of good against evil will not make it so; and wishing existence didn’t have to be affirmed on the unchanging principle opposition in all things will also not make it so. But remember, if there were no opposition in all things nothing could exist, not even God.

It’s important to realize that, with great joy, we all voluntarily desired to enter and engage with this fallen world because we knew the great glory that would follow after a brief period of trial, suffering and tribulation. If some have now soured on the idea, that’s OK, but they just need to understand that they will be relegated to a lower kingdom of glory where their freedom will be restricted.

What it all boils down to is this: who is and who isn’t willing to accept and effectively deal with reality. Satan and the one-third host who were cast out of heaven not only couldn’t accept reality but from the beginning have made all out war against “things as they really are.” 

I must say I sympathize with you because it’s a hopeless cause that you will ever receive satisfactory and soul comforting answers to your many doubts and questions until you receive those answers from the Holy Ghost — there is no other way.

Thanks, for your last comment, it felt very genuine.

About the other comments, why didn't Jesus/God just not play mind games and come out with what the devil asked Eve and Adam to do. Why use the devil to do that? That feels like a game, that I don't like playing. A God that does that isn't being what He asks us to do, and be honest. 

That's why I don't take the scriptures serious when my gut or my moral compass, which I believe I was given from my maker, says "that's wrong". 

[Metis_LDS]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

And if she had continued, the plan would have been destroyed.

I think Lucifer knew that they would eventually get the fruit by God - as done in other worlds.  The plan wouldn’t be destroyed by obeying God (that’s a conundrum).

I was wirting my post as you were editing yours, if I had seen your finished post I would not of created mine. We agree on what went down.

[pogi]

6 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

Because prthaps what was done on other worlds did not include a Satan figure.  So Satan's offence was to take the place of and authority of another.

Yes!  That is exactly it.  That other authority was God.  Lucifer was continuing his same mission in the pre-existence to assume the authority and position of God. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by pogi

[Metis_LDS]

Just now, pogi said:

Yes!  That is exactly it.  That other authority was God.  He was continuing his same mission in the pre-existence to assume the authority and position of God. 

The moral of the story is Satan is a most dangerous being!

[Calm]

59 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

act of hateful revenge against the God whom he hates

And the souls who refused to go along with his rebellion 

[teddyaware]

19 minutes ago, Calm said:

And the souls who refused to go along with his rebellion 

Exactly! The first great commandment is to love God with all your heart; the second is like unto the first, and that is to love your fellow man with equal passion. Both commandments are interdependent and inextricably linked.

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Satan knew the plan.  He was there in the pre-existence when it was outlined.  He had witnessed it unfold on other earths.  Why would he push it forward?  Why not persuade her to follow God and not to eat it and thus destroy the plan?  Having witnessed what had happened on other earths, with giving of the fruit to other Adam and Eve's, you would think that Lucifer would have anticipated the cursing which would follow, why do you think he was so shocked and surprised at the curse that would follow for giving them the fruit?  "if thous curse me for doing the same thing which has been done on other worlds..."  Strange indeed!

 

First, I agree with the following from James E Talmage:

Elder James E. Talmage (1862–1933) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained that Satan actually “furthered the purposes of the Creator by tempting Eve; yet his design was to thwart the Lord’s plan. We are definitely told that ‘he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.’ [Moses 4:6.] Yet his diabolical effort, far from being the initiatory step toward destruction, contributed to the plan of man’s eternal progression” (The Articles of Faith, 12th ed. [1924], 69).

So how it possible that one who once knew the mind of God, and his great and marvelous plan of salvation, could have somehow forgotten what he once correctly understood? The simple, instructive and powerful answer is found in Alma 12.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

Without the indwelling of the Spirit of God, which enables its recipients to correctly discern and comprehend truth, they are led into all kinds of pernicious and destructive errors. In Lucifer’s case, because he no longer possessed any measure of the Spirit, he was spiritually abandoned and finally totally deceived by his own limitless pride into believing he was one of the ‘good guys’ simply because he was doing what others had done before him. He literally fulfilled Alma’s dire warning because he lost more and more of the Spirit until he knew absolutely nothing concerning God’s mysterious ways. The Book of Mormon calls such forgetting the “sleep of death.”

Edited June 18, 2022 by teddyaware

[Calm]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

It’s important to realize that, with great joy, we all voluntarily desired to enter and engage with this fallen world because we knew the great glory that would follow after a brief period of trial, suffering and tribulation. 

Now I have had awhile to think of the alternatives presented by Pogi and others, I have figured out why I am not convinced even if it helps with the contradicting commandments…it turns other points of the Plan Process into confusion. Resolution of the one point that results in a greater contradiction isn’t that useful, imo.
 

To me, this above quote by teddy is the crucial point. If the Plan of Salvation was presented with the idea that Adam and Eve would not transgress without an alternative of transgression being mentioned and that was the Plan we accepted, but then they did transgress after all, we would be settling for something we had not chosen, a plan B, since we were already committed prior to Adam and Eve transgressing (since Adam/Michael was part of the Council and I suspect Eve was too, the process where we make our choice was long past; there is no second council in the story to give us an informed choice).  God saying something along the lines of ‘well, I promised it would be one way, but Eve and Adam screwed up, so now unfortunately some of you guys are going to have really crappy lives’ doesn’t seem likely to me.

So the other, more likely alternative that still has ‘no transgressions’ as the way it was supposed to go is where both options (no transgressions or transgressions) are presented as possibilities, but it is presented as unknown which it will be, so at best God tells us something like “there are two ways this could go down, the easy way and the hard way; Christ and I have your back either way, so how about it? Ready to commit for eternity to either option?  I can’t guarantee Adam and Eve won’t go the hard way, but it hasn’t happened very often before, so you guys got good odds to skip the suffering.  Still you need to be prepared just in case.  Will you still choose to commit to follow Christ either way?”

Msybe that is confusing, so I will present the possibilities I see…

Options on how the Plan was presented and the implications for how screwed up the transgression made things if it was unintended or meant to be:

1) complete surprise to us that Eve took the bite when she did because God didn’t warn us and so we were expecting a Millennial type of experience.  But we were committed to getting bodies and progression and eternal life was still definitely worth it, so we gritted our teeth and leaped after some “ah, why did they have to go ahead and complicate it all!?!” and lots of pep talks with each other that it wasn’t going to make any difference in the long run anyway and the suffering would be just a wink of an eye compared to the rest of our lives****

2) God warned us there was a possibility, but choosing the hard way was unusual based on other Adams and Eves in the past.  Still we needed to be prepared, would we still accept the Plan either way, bumpy or smooth?  We would and we did, maybe with some frustration but we weren’t blindsided….this is much more likely than “1” imo given God’s foreknowledge and love…but issues with “does it make a difference to us eternally” again apply and are concerning (see below).

3)  Not only did God present both possibilities at the Council, he told us in this case Adam and Eve would be choosing the hard way, transgression and getting kicked out of the garden.  Our lives would therefore be full of brambles and stones and just generally crappy for most.  He discussed all the ins and outs, reassured us the Atonement balanced it all out even if it meant a bigger work load for Christ to perform since some of us were going to make it hard on ourselves with our choices.  When we accepted the Plan, we knew exactly what we would be getting into; no possibilities of smoother paths, but we committed because we knew God loved us, so he wouldn’t make it harder than it had to be.  There is no problem with differences because it was never going to be different.  Eve was going to choose to take the fruit and the rest would be our history  

This makes the most sense to me given the character of God.  I see him as taking the time and effort to prepare us and giving us the time to make an informed choice (as informed as we could be having never been mortal before) before stranding us on a pale blue dot.  We would have no right to whine ‘we didn’t know what we were getting into, this isn’t what we were promised!’ The issue of what difference our eternal fate would be if we got pitched into a world full of temptation and opportunities to sin instead of a beautiful paradise or millennial world is too big of an issue to set aside.  Maybe those pro ‘Eve was wrong to jump the gun’ can resolve this though, so I am still open to the idea  

———

****if it did make a difference and there are souls that are in lower levels or even Perdition because they had to go with the unexpected Plan B due to Adam and Eve’s action, that sounds wrong as well.  In essence they would be punished for Adam’s transgression if otherwise they were celestial material or higher than they ended up. 

But if it doesn’t make a difference to the eternal state of our souls in the long run whether Adam and Eve transgressed and took the fruit early or stayed the course in the Garden and followed God’s instructions to the T, then that also has implications.  What is the point of them waiting if it didn’t matter if they transgressed or not?

[Calm]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

And if she had continued, the plan would have been destroyed

In the case of they were meant to transgress, correct?

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

About the other comments, why didn't Jesus/God just not play mind games and come out with what the devil asked Eve and Adam to do. Why use the devil to do that? That feels like a game, that I don't like playing. A God that does that isn't being what He asks us to do, and be honest

How could God be in opposition to himself?

He did present both options, to eat or not eat. I am not sure what else you are imagining he would do that Satan did. Could you explain, please. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

That's why I don't take the scriptures serious when my gut or my moral compass, which I believe I was given from my maker, says "that's wrong". 

And you shouldn’t. We should confirm all things.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

In the case of they were meant to transgress, correct?

Yes, but also under the popular interpretation 1) the Lord would have never offered the fruit to Adam and Eve - it would have always been forbidden, 2) the fruit was necessary for procreation, and 3) it was necessary for moral agency.  So, if Satan could convince them to obey God and not eat of the fruit the plan would have been thwarted in that they never would have had children, and never would have had moral agency - both central and necessary to the plan of salvation.  

Edited June 18, 2022 by pogi

[pogi]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

First, I agree with the following from James E Talmage:

Elder James E. Talmage (1862–1933) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained that Satan actually “furthered the purposes of the Creator by tempting Eve; yet his design was to thwart the Lord’s plan. We are definitely told that ‘he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.’ [Moses 4:6.] Yet his diabolical effort, far from being the initiatory step toward destruction, contributed to the plan of man’s eternal progression” (The Articles of Faith, 12th ed. [1924], 69).

So how it possible that one who once knew the mind of God, and his great and marvelous plan of salvation, could have somehow forgotten what he once correctly understood? The simple, instructive and powerful answer is found in Alma 12.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

Without the indwelling of the Spirit of God, which enables its recipients to correctly discern and comprehend truth, they are led into all kinds of pernicious and destructive errors. In Lucifer’s case, because he no longer possessed any measure of the Spirit, he was spiritually abandoned and finally totally deceived by his own limitless pride into believing he was one of the ‘good guys’ simply because he was doing what others had done before him. He literally fulfilled Alma’s dire warning because he lost more and more of the Spirit until he knew absolutely nothing concerning God’s mysterious ways. The Book of Mormon calls such forgetting the “sleep of death.”

That is how I was raised to understand it as well.  

I think it is clear that Lucifer didn't know the mind of God.  He was surprised at the severity of the consequences of his actions in tempting and giving the fruit to Eve ("If thou curse me for doing the same thing which has been done in other worlds...")   I don't think he knew that this would be the last straw for God.

In terms of the plan of salvation (the necessity of procreation and bringing God's children to earth, and the necessity of moral agency, etc) this was no "mystery".   He actively campaigned against the plan and came up with his own opposing plan.  He witnessed the plan unfold in countless other worlds.  He clearly referenced his knowledge of what happened in other worlds when God cursed him - I think that proves that he was conscious of the plan. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by pogi

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Now I have had awhile to think of the alternatives presented by Pogi and others, I have figured out why I am not convinced even if it helps with the contradicting commandments…it turns other points of the Plan Process into confusion. Resolution of the one point that results in a greater contradiction isn’t that useful, imo.

I think you are misunderstanding my position in that I don't disagree at all with what teddy said here:

Quote

It’s important to realize that, with great joy, we all voluntarily desired to enter and engage with this fallen world because we knew the great glory that would follow after a brief period of trial, suffering and tribulation. 

The plan is not changed under my interpretation one iota.  I am not suggesting that the point of the plan was for no opposition or transgression to exist on earth.  

Let  me try to explain.  I think it is critical to understand that God promised to return with further instructions.  With those further instructions, I believe, would have come the fruit of the tree of knowledge accompanied with the gospel of Jesus Christ and all accompanying commandments.  I believe that with the endowment of moral agency and further commandments would have come instructions that they would be tempted and would fall (just like was taught in the pre-existence) and that a savior would be provided to be redeemed from death/transgression.  There was no need for conflicting commandments to force transgression and a fall.  All that was needed was a tempter along with deceivable/fallible humans and time (which they had plenty of).  Any transgression would have resulted in a fall/death and the necessity of a savior/atonement.   They didn't need conflicting commandments to transgress and fall.  Mankind has a knack for falling without without the aide of contradicting commandments. 

My interpretation doesn't remove any of the 3 pillars of the plan of salvation - 1) the creation 2) the fall, 3) the atonement.   My interpretation simply suggests that the fall could have happened differently and that it was not forced in contradiction - that a way would have been prepared.  

It is entirely possible that we were all aware that they would fall before we committed to the plan - God knowing the future and all - but my interpretation is still possible given that pre-knowledge.  Pre-knowledge, for me, is not the same as pre-destined.  I don't believe in predestination.  I can't accept that they were destined to fall the way the fell.  That is contrary to everything I know about the gospel and agency. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by pogi

[CV75]

23 hours ago, Calm said:

Pogi and anyone else who holds this position, why do you see the church leadership/prophets/temple ceremony more or less showing Eve did just fine choosing to partake when she did?

The way the Lord presents it, I think the fruit was said to be forbidden in the context of Adam and Eve being able to to remain immortal, but it was not forbidden in order to multiply and replenish the earth, either mortally, or through the Redeemer, eternally.

This still allows that the forbidden fruit was sacred and also that the couple were not fully prepared to exercise their agency to partake of it until they actually did. Their intelligence by which they exercised their agency was nowhere near the level of godhood, but it was enough to become mortal and through the Redeemer, receive His grace for grace until they have the intelligence to become exalted, or a fulness of glory.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Now I have had awhile to think of the alternatives presented by Pogi and others, I have figured out why I am not convinced even if it helps with the contradicting commandments…it turns other points of the Plan Process into confusion. Resolution of the one point that results in a greater contradiction isn’t that useful, imo.
 

To me, this above quote by teddy is the crucial point. If the Plan of Salvation was presented with the idea that Adam and Eve would not transgress without an alternative of transgression being mentioned and that was the Plan we accepted, but then they did transgress after all, we would be settling for something we had not chosen, a plan B, since we were already committed prior to Adam and Eve transgressing (since Adam/Michael was part of the Council and I suspect Eve was too, the process where we make our choice was long past; there is no second council in the story to give us an informed choice).  God saying something along the lines of ‘well, I promised it would be one way, but Eve and Adam screwed up, so now unfortunately some of you guys are going to have really crappy lives’ doesn’t seem likely to me.

So the other, more likely alternative that still has ‘no transgressions’ as the way it was supposed to go is where both options (no transgressions or transgressions) are presented as possibilities, but it is presented as unknown which it will be, so at best God tells us something like “there are two ways this could go down, the easy way and the hard way; Christ and I have your back either way, so how about it? Ready to commit for eternity to either option?  I can’t guarantee Adam and Eve won’t go the hard way, but it hasn’t happened very often before, so you guys got good odds to skip the suffering.  Still you need to be prepared just in case.  Will you still choose to commit to follow Christ either way?”

Msybe that is confusing, so I will present the possibilities I see…

Options on how the Plan was presented and the implications for how screwed up the transgression made things if it was unintended or meant to be:

1) complete surprise to us that Eve took the bite when she did because God didn’t warn us and so we were expecting a Millennial type of experience.  But we were committed to getting bodies and progression and eternal life was still definitely worth it, so we gritted our teeth and leaped after some “ah, why did they have to go ahead and complicate it all!?!” and lots of pep talks with each other that it wasn’t going to make any difference in the long run anyway and the suffering would be just a wink of an eye compared to the rest of our lives****

2) God warned us there was a possibility, but choosing the hard way was unusual based on other Adams and Eves in the past.  Still we needed to be prepared, would we still accept the Plan either way, bumpy or smooth?  We would and we did, maybe with some frustration but we weren’t blindsided….this is much more likely than “1” imo given God’s foreknowledge and love…but issues with “does it make a difference to us eternally” again apply and are concerning (see below).

3)  Not only did God present both possibilities at the Council, he told us in this case Adam and Eve would be choosing the hard way, transgression and getting kicked out of the garden.  Our lives would therefore be full of brambles and stones and just generally crappy for most.  He discussed all the ins and outs, reassured us the Atonement balanced it all out even if it meant a bigger work load for Christ to perform since some of us were going to make it hard on ourselves with our choices.  When we accepted the Plan, we knew exactly what we would be getting into; no possibilities of smoother paths, but we committed because we knew God loved us, so he wouldn’t make it harder than it had to be.  There is no problem with differences because it was never going to be different.  Eve was going to choose to take the fruit and the rest would be our history  

This makes the most sense to me given the character of God.  I see him as taking the time and effort to prepare us and giving us the time to make an informed choice (as informed as we could be having never been mortal before) before stranding us on a pale blue dot.  We would have no right to whine ‘we didn’t know what we were getting into, this isn’t what we were promised!’ The issue of what difference our eternal fate would be if we got pitched into a world full of temptation and opportunities to sin instead of a beautiful paradise or millennial world is too big of an issue to set aside.  Maybe those pro ‘Eve was wrong to jump the gun’ can resolve this though, so I am still open to the idea  

———

****if it did make a difference and there are souls that are in lower levels or even Perdition because they had to go with the unexpected Plan B due to Adam and Eve’s action, that sounds wrong as well.  In essence they would be punished for Adam’s transgression if otherwise they were celestial material or higher than they ended up. 

But if it doesn’t make a difference to the eternal state of our souls in the long run whether Adam and Eve transgressed and took the fruit early or stayed the course in the Garden and followed God’s instructions to the T, then that also has implications.  What is the point of them waiting if it didn’t matter if they transgressed or not?

With #3, Eve, like anyone else, would not have the wherewithal to do anything but choose the fruit. None of us could do anything but transgress. Through our probation and the Savior, we learn better than to simply not transgress (which is not a moral infraction in this story), but to act as one with God.

We also knew we would sin once outside of Eden (and perhaps that is where Adam and Eve may have been more intelligent than most, and closer to the Lord in the Abraham 3:19 principle, but I'm not judging!), but still the intent of our probation is to learn better than to sin, and to act as one with God.

It could be said that by transgressing in Eden, Adam and Eve were in a sense acting as one with God though they did not know His mind, in relation to good and evil. Satan did not know his mind, though he did have a knowledge of good and evil and worked toward the latter. We had a knowledge of good and evil sufficient to follow Christ and to work toward greater good by passing into this life. This is a gospel of repentance!

[manol]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

But if it doesn’t make a difference to the eternal state of our souls in the long run whether Adam and Eve transgressed and took the fruit early or stayed the course in the Garden and followed God’s instructions to the T, then that also has implications. 

I tend to think this is the case, based on the general principle that God is fair, so he isn't going to cheat us because of someone else's choice.  I think Adam and Eve perceived that there would be worthwhile benefit from having a mortal experience, and the rest of us likewise.  So once that became "the plan" it was going to happen, one way or another.  To me, the precise mechanics of how we ended up coming to a telestial world are not the most important part of the allegory.  

[CV75]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I think you are misunderstanding my position in that I don't disagree at all with what teddy said here:

The plan is not changed under my interpretation one iota.  I am not suggesting that the point of the plan was for no opposition or transgression to exist on earth.  

Let  me try to explain.  I think it is critical to understand that God promised to return with further instructions.  With those further instructions, I believe, would have come the fruit of the tree of knowledge accompanied with the gospel of Jesus Christ and all accompanying commandments.  I believe that with the endowment of moral agency and further commandments would have come instructions that they would be tempted and would fall (just like was taught in the pre-existence) and that a savior would be provided to be redeemed from death/transgression.  There was no need for conflicting commandments to force transgression and a fall.  All that was needed was a tempter along with deceivable/fallible humans and time (which they had plenty of).  Any transgression would have resulted in a fall/death and the necessity of a savior/atonement.   They didn't need conflicting commandments to transgress and fall.  Mankind has a knack for falling without without the aide of contradicting commandments. 

My interpretation doesn't remove any of the 3 pillars of the plan of salvation - 1) the creation 2) the fall, 3) the atonement.   My interpretation simply suggests that the fall could have happened differently and that it was not forced in contradiction - that a way would have been prepared.  

It is entirely possible that we were all aware that they would fall before we committed to the plan - God knowing the future and all - but my interpretation is still possible given that pre-knowledge.  Pre-knowledge, for me, is not the same as pre-destined.  I don't believe in predestination.  I can't accept that they were destined to fall the way the fell.  That is contrary to everything I know about the gospel and agency. 

I agree they were not destined or predestined to fall (or that we are destined / predestined to sin), but inevitability is not necessarily the same as destiny since agency still precipitates the inevitable. Given our level of intelligence, it was inevitable that the best physical world Adam and Eve (and we) could manage is a telestial-style, mortal one. Given that Adam and Eve had to appreciate the difference, they had to begin in paradise.

[mfbukowski]

26 minutes ago, CV75 said:

The way the Lord presents it, I think the fruit was said to be forbidden in the context of Adam and Eve being able to to remain immortal, but it was not forbidden in order to multiply and replenish the earth, either mortally, or through the Redeemer, eternally.

This still allows that the forbidden fruit was sacred and also that the couple were not fully prepared to exercise their agency to partake of it until they actually did. Their intelligence by which they exercised their agency was nowhere near the level of godhood, but it was enough to become mortal and through the Redeemer, receive His grace for grace until they have the intelligence to become exalted, or a fulness of glory.

But yet, Adam was one of the engineering crew assembling it all. .  He's up there!

[Calm]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

1) the Lord would have never offered the fruit to Adam and Eve - it would have always been forbidden,

But if they were meant to take it and God knew that they would, that what might have been is meaningless. It would not have been always forbidden because that future would never had occurred.

God was having ongoing interaction with Adam and Eve. Assuming that Satan convinced them for a time not to eat, God would most likely easily convince them to eat if necessary. 

The issue with Satan is timing.  He got to Eve when she was alone and convinced her to act immediately. The reverse of not eating is not simply the opposite case because God could intervene in an extended rejection of the fruit because there was time where there was no time to work with, to intervene to change things one Eve ate. 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Calm

[pogi]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I agree they were not destined or predestined to fall (or that we are destined / predestined to sin), but inevitability is not necessarily the same as destiny since agency still precipitates the inevitable. Given our level of intelligence, it was inevitable that the best physical world Adam and Eve (and we) could manage is a telestial-style, mortal one. Given that Adam and Eve had to appreciate the difference, they had to begin in paradise.

I don't disagree with any of this.  I don't believe like Obeone that Adam and eve could/would have lived in a terrestrial or paradisiacal world had they obeyed the first two commandments.  I think any transgression of God's law would have induced spiritual/physical death and a fall from paradise into a telestial-style mortal world.  I think this is how it unfolded in all worlds.  I just don't think that they all fell through partaking of the fruit.  I don't think that was predestined or even inevitable that they fall in that manner.  

The problem with popular interpretation is that there is an element of impossibility in fulfilling God's law as commanded.  They didn't have true agency to fulfill God's law as commanded.  They HAD TO fall one way or another.  There was no choice in it.  This goes beyond what is inventible to what is destined to be.  Without a way, and therefor full agency to "accomplish the things which the Lord hath commanded", they were pre-destined to fall.  That is a fatal flaw in this interpretation for me. It is contrary to doctrine. 

I agree that a fall was inevitable for all the reasons I mentioned above - given the commandments in the gospel, and given that they were fallible humans, they were deceivable, and given a deceiver in their midst, and given enough time (and they had all eternity) they would inevitably be beguiled one way or another - but not pre-destined as the Lord always provides a way and agency to fulfill his commands.  

Edited June 19, 2022 by pogi

[pogi]

 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

But if they were meant to take it and God knew that they would, that what might have been is meaningless. 

I agree that it is meaningless in the sense that it can't be any different than what is - so why muse at what might have been.  But I think my view gives the allegory deeper meaning and effectual application in my own personal life as Adam and Eve (and their God) become more relatable to me.  For example, I don't personally know a contradictory God who causes me to fall.  That is not the God I worship.  That is not my reality.  I can't identify with this story or apply it in my life.  Therefore, the popular interpretation is meaningless to me personally and unrelatable.  It is not applicable in my life.  Given further context with my interpretation, it gives a more relatable application and deeper meaning and symbolism to the tree and its fruit, and it also gives further meaning and understanding of the adversary.  It makes all the pieces fall together in a way that I can relate with, have experienced, and can apply in my own life as if I was Adam/Eve.  

1 hour ago, Calm said:

God was having ongoing interaction with Adam and Eve. Assuming that Satan convinced them for a time not to eat, God would most likely easily convince them to eat if necessary. 

I think this is contrary to the popular view and aligns more with my view.  In fact, that is exactly what I am suggesting.  

1 hour ago, Calm said:

The reverse of not eating is not simply the opposite case because God could intervene in an extended rejection of the fruit because there was time where there was no time to work with, to intervene to change things one Eve ate. 

I'm not sure what you are saying here.  

Edited June 19, 2022 by pogi

[Calm]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

The plan is not changed under my interpretation one iota.  I am not suggesting that the point of the plan was for no opposition or transgression to exist on earth.  

But was the earth in a different state?  Was it Telestial or Terrestrial?  What would have been the state of the earth if they had waited?

[pogi]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

But was the earth in a different state?  Was it Telestial or Terrestrial?  What would have been the state of the earth if they had waited?

As I explained to CV75 above, my view is very different from Obeone.  I don’t believe the state of glory that the world is in would be any different. A fall was inevitable, I just don’t think it had to happen in the way it did.  Any transgression would have resulted in the same spiritual/physical death and fall from a paradisical world and into the current glory of the world we live in, requiring redemption and atonement.

Edited June 19, 2022 by pogi

[CV75]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

But yet, Adam was one of the engineering crew assembling it all. .  He's up there!

Absolutely!