Why Satan had access to the Garden of Eden

[Bernard Gui]

On 6/14/2022 at 9:26 AM, OGHoosier said:

Frankly these days I look on the whole story of the Fall as ceremonial script. After all, in practical terms, the Fall is something we all did. Adam and Eve ("man" and "woman") stand in the place of all of us in the temple ceremony, and I believe this points to a literal truth; we all Fell. We all chose to leave the paradisaical abode of God to come here. The temple clearly implies that this decision was made consciously by Adam and Eve, just as it was made consciously by us in the Council in Heaven. We all Fell, we are all Adam and Eve, and if Satan had access to us during the Grand Council then he would have to have access to our type-avatars (Adam and Eve) in Eden.

So Adam is not Michael, second to Jehovah, but just a fictitious character invented to teach us something important? How much of our doctrine relating to Adam do you think is allegorical?

Edited June 22, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[pogi]

12 minutes ago, Obehave said:

Good analogy but I think color blind people can distinguish red from blue as different shades of gray. 

No, they can’t.  The shades of grey are determined by the darkness of the hue/shade/tint.  A light blue compared to a dark red will be impossible for them to distinguish from a light red with a dark blue.

Have you ever seen a color blind test?  There will be a page of all red dots with a number 6 in blue dots of the same shade/tint  in the middle.  They literally can’t see the number 6 because all the dots look exactly the same.  

[pogi]

31 minutes ago, Obehave said:

Good analogy but I think color blind people can distinguish red from blue as different shades of gray.  So while they may not have known the difference between good and evil as well as we possibly can I think they still saw them as different from each other.

I believe Adam and Eve simply got better at distinguishing good from evil after "having their eyes opened" from other experiences with good and evil.  I think I went through the same process as I grew up, or matured.  Not that I am perfect, yet.  I'm still growing up and still having more experiences with good and evil.  But the light has always been there, where it is, and I believe everyone who comes into the world receives some of that light even if it is not all of the light we can receive.

So you think their eyes were partially opened before, and that they could actually experience joy and sorrow, pain and pleasure, etc. to a certain degree.  

That’s fine, you can believe what you want.  If it works for you that is what is important, but I interpret the scriptures to say they were blind to these things.   I think the story is intended to show that we can do nothing without Christ.  That he is the ONLY WAY.  No progression.  No joy, no sorrow, etc.  His light is the source of all spiritual/moral sight.  

Edited June 22, 2022 by pogi

[Calm]

Just now, Obehave said:

So rather than say something like "Bleh I'll bet it still tastes just as bland as every other fruit on all of these trees, nothing good or evil about any of it", see saw that something was good. 

Except everything in the garden was pronounced “good”, so is there any reason to see the fruit as different from the others except for it being set apart in the middle of the garden and forbidden?

[CV75]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

Allegorically we partake of the tree of life too, so your argument that the tree of knowledge continued to be ok but the tree of life was no longer ok doesn’t work in allegory.  

Not in the sense that we have eternal life (alma 42:2-3): "Now behold, my son, I will explain this thing unto thee. For behold, after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground, from whence they were taken—yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life. Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit" Given that the tree is allegorical...

4 hours ago, pogi said:

We are just going in circles now.  But to clarify one last time - it wouldn’t have been transgressive any more than sex is transgressive after the Lord allows it.   The fruit would not have changed them in a transgressive/deadly/telestial way when partaken of worthily.  

But you were saying that it wasn't the fruit, but the transgressive act of eating it that changed them, or brought upon them the fall. By introducing the concept of worthiness, you are introducing a new concept for discussion. Does this have something to do with your belief "that the fruit would have eventually been offered to them by the Lord after they were prepared," and therefore not a transgressive act, but one wherein the fruit would change them into telestial beings? Posted Monday at 05:16 PM

The way the story goes now, they did not transgress (cross over into telestial life) until they transgressed (broke the prohibition and ate the fruit). One interpretation of this is that they could not transgress (cross over into telestial life) until they transgressed (broke the prohibition and ate the fruit). The other is that they could not transgress (cross over into telestial life) until the Lord gave them the fruit to eat, which changed them without their need to break the prohibition and eat the fruit.

 

 

[mfbukowski]

15 minutes ago, Obehave said:

So rather than say something like "Bleh I'll bet it still tastes just as bland as every other fruit on all of these trees, nothing good or evil about any of it", see saw that something was good.  I think she just didn't know or realize the fruit was also evil.

Good analogy for conflicting "language games" as well.

I know someone who goes by what food is "good" tasting and disregards if it is "good" for health reasons.

The person is quite obese.

What is spiritually good doesn't necessarily mean it causes health

Edited June 22, 2022 by mfbukowski

[OGHoosier]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

So Adam is not Michael, second to Jehovah, but just a fictitious character invented to teach us something important? How much of our doctrine relating to Adam do you think is allegorical?

Nah, I do think Adam is Michael, second to Jehovah. I think he actually exists, is a common descendant ancestor of all humanity (as is basically anyone who lived more than 4k years ago), was the first high priest on the Earth, probably the first hominin to carry a spirit of a child of God. However, the events in the Garden could be more or less allegorical. I do not believe that Adam and Eve being cast from the Garden led to the creation of a telestial world in the first instance. I think another Fall did that; the Fall we all took when we undertook to leave the mansions of our Father to come here to mortality. Literally each and every one of us made that choice, and the temple ceremony is unequivocal in making Adam and Eve symbols for all of us, as are their very names. 

Edited June 22, 2022 by OGHoosier

[Calm]

“a common descendant of all humanity”

cough “ancestor” cough…

[OGHoosier]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

“a common descendant of all humanity”

cough “ancestor” cough…

Hehe, yeah. I'm not good at parsimony. Critical style flaw.

[Bernard Gui]

16 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

Nah, I do think Adam is Michael, second to Jehovah. I think he actually exists, is a common descendant ancestor of all humanity (as is basically anyone who lived more than 4k years ago), was the first high priest on the Earth, probably the first hominin to carry a spirit of a child of God. However, the events in the Garden could be more or less allegorical. I do not believe that Adam and Eve being cast from the Garden led to the creation of a telestial world in the first instance. I think another Fall did that; the Fall we all took when we undertook to leave the mansions of our Father to come here to mortality. Literally each and every one of us made that choice, and the temple ceremony is unequivocal in making Adam and Eve symbols for all of us, as are their very names. 

Oh, right. That Fall.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Kenngo1969]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

“a common descendant of all humanity”

cough “ancestor” cough…

I hope you get rid of that toz feroz* soon!

*Spanish for "ferocious cough" ...  

[OGHoosier]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Oh, right. That Fall.

Yep, that Fall. 

[CV75]

Given that our record shows Adam and Eve transgressed to eat the forbidden fruit of their own free will, I’m thinking through the scenario where the Lord instead bestows upon them knowledge of good and evil and the mortal conditions to experience physical and spiritual death. This could have been accomplished gradually and seamlessly as a ramp, or at some point or points along the way as a step or rungs on a ladder.

In such a scenario, He might say something like, “I’ve taught you to use your agency wisely. You’ve demonstrated the faith and knowledge to physically and spiritually survive a mortal lifetime, so I would like to test you. Unlike your time in Eden, you (and any posterity heretofore born in Eden as you kept the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth) will face unprecedented physical and spiritual opposition in this test, some from nature, some from personal failings, and some from your adversary the serpent, with whom you are acquainted. You may not always succeed. Some or all of your posterity might not survive entry or past the age of innocence. As discussed, a Savior, Myself and my system in a fallen world, will be provided to counter these effects. You will continue to have a choice to proceed or remain, but there is no more knowledge, skill and ability you can absorb and gain here (given Abraham 3:19), and if you remain here you will not remember the “preexistence” or see the next estate.” A possible add-on is, “The option to proceed is always open, but I forbid any delay, for in the day you refuse when I offer the choice, you lose what you’ve been given until you are no longer prepared to proceed.”

The question that keeps coming up for me at various points in this scenario is, how do the children of God advance in Eden with such stringent hand-holding, or if not stringent hand-holding, learn anything without failing, ever in the minutest detail? Plus, the moment they face the add-on (the forbidden option) brings virtually the same dilemma as facing the forbidden fruit.

[mfbukowski]

On 6/14/2022 at 6:26 AM, Calm said:

This…

What am I, chopped liver?