The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

[pogi]

17 minutes ago, Obeone said:

Yes. If Eve fell and Adam did not, Adam would obviously get another wife from God who would listen to Him. "Thou shall be left alone man in the garden of Eden" was another lie of the devil transmitted through Eve.

Adam obviously would not have been left alone.

When one spouse falls and the other does not, God always provides a better replacement. 

I don't think it would have gone down that way at all.  This sounds a little too much like Lafferty language for me to be comfortable with. 

God would have provided a way.  One transgression (not even a sin) was not enough to separate them for eternity.  Where does it say that Adam could not leave the garden and return whenever he wanted?

Edited June 14, 2022 by pogi

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

The temptation itself or the consequences of it through the Atonement?

[Obeone]

16 minutes ago, filovirus said:

for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

Does the bolded relate to Adam and Eve?

Yes. God is a Man. All is good.

Besides Nephi is speaking to a human audience here. I'm sure the principle is in reality broader: God does not give commandments to anyone (fish, birds, animals, aliens, etc.) except He provides a way for them to accomplish it. If not so, He would cease to be God. 

And remember, transgressing God's commandments is not accomplishing them. 

[pogi]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

The temptation itself or the consequences of it through the Atonement?

The passage doesn't mention transgression or sin.  It is about "temptation".  Temptation is not a violation of anything with spiritual consequence that requires the atonement.  The scripture is talking about being able to bear the temptation and providing a way...it mirrors Nephi's testimony.  

Edited June 14, 2022 by pogi

[manol]

1 hour ago, Obeone said:

Thank you! I think we are resurrected and transformed to a given glory via transformation of our minds. (Example: the three Nephites were caught up into heaven where they saw and heard things which transformed their minds and bodies).

 That sounds plausible to me.

1 hour ago, Obeone said:

The fall occurred through a lie, would not then the truth that reverses the lie be the way back to the glory lost? Does it make sense to you? 

Glancing at Section 76, it is not obvious to me that a correct belief about the Fall is necessarily pivotal; it seems to me that the kind of person you are is what's pivotal. 

I am under the impression that the First and Second Great commandments are the foundation for all the law and the prophets. 

To the extent that the Fall is about separation from God imo correct ideas can be transformational, but mere awareness is not enough - the person must align their whole being to them (easier said than done!).  Speaking only for myself now, I think that correct ideas about the present are more likely to be transformational for me than correct ideas about the past, but I could be wrong. 

Edited June 14, 2022 by manol

[Obeone]

8 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don't think it would have gone down that way at all.  This sounds a little too much like Lafferty language for me to be comfortable with. 

God would have provided a way.  One transgression (not even a sin) was not enough to separate them for eternity.  Where does it say that Adam could not leave the garden and return whenever he wanted?

It is quite possible that God would have provided for Eve to come back to Adam eventually. But I am sure Adam would have gotten another wife before then. Look Moses had more than one wife. It is not rocket science. Right?

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Obeone said:

It is quite possible that God would have provided for Eve to come back to Adam eventually. But I am sure Adam would have gotten another wife before then. Look Moses had more than one wife. It is not rocket science. Right?

Sure.  Women have always been disposable, interchangeable. 

[Obeone]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Sure.  Women have always been disposable, interchangeable. 

This goes both ways: If Adam fell and Eve did not, Eve would have gotten a different husband from the Lord, and Adam would have been cast out.

[filovirus]

Sound like we are getting a lot of ifs. Do you really think God didn’t know exactly how it would turn out.

[filovirus]

“I’m very, very grateful that in the Book of Mormon, and I think elsewhere in our scriptures, the fall of Adam has not been called a sin. It wasn’t a sin. … What did Adam do? The very thing the Lord wanted him to do; and I hate to hear anybody call it a sin, for it wasn’t a sin. Did Adam sin when he partook of the forbidden fruit? I say to you, no, he did not! Now, let me refer to what was written in the book of Moses in regard to the command God gave to Adam. [Moses 3:16–17.]

“Now this is the way I interpret that: The Lord said to Adam, here is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you want to stay here, then you cannot eat of that fruit. If you want to stay here, then I forbid you to eat it. But you may act for yourself, and you may eat of it if you want to. And if you eat it, you will die.

“I see a great difference between transgressing the law and committing a sin” (Joseph Fielding Smith, “Fall—Atonement—Resurrection—Sacrament,” in Charge to Religious Educators, 124).

[Hamba Tuhan]

58 minutes ago, Obeone said:

This goes both ways: If Adam fell and Eve did not, Eve would have gotten a different husband from the Lord, and Adam would have been cast out.

Yep, cos people who fall and repent aren't worthy to be with those who, like you, choose the 'higher way'.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

18 minutes ago, filovirus said:

“I see a great difference between transgressing the law and committing a sin” (Joseph Fielding Smith, “Fall—Atonement—Resurrection—Sacrament,” in Charge to Religious Educators, 124).

Quoting mistaken prophets isn't likely to convince a man who is more enlightened and obedient than Father Adam.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Calm]

1 hour ago, filovirus said:

“Now this is the way I interpret that: The Lord said to Adam, here is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you want to stay here, then you cannot eat of that fruit. If you want to stay here, then I forbid you to eat it. But you may act for yourself, and you may eat of it if you want to. And if you eat it, you will die.

I agree with this. I don’t see them as conflicting commandments, but as two paths that God had prepared and he was telling them how to kickstart whichever one they chose.  Eat the fruit and this will be the path you take. Don’t eat the fruit and take this other path.
 

Not in this scripture, but in other venues are we reassured that it is okay to make choices on how we fulfill or even if we currently fulfill a commandment that fit the resources we have to fulfill these commandments as long as the intent to be fully obedient is there.   The one path/choice not taken now can be taken later when ready and there is space for it.
 

 The Lord will provide a way to fulfill all his commandments, but not necessarily all at the same time.  For example the commandment to multiple and replenish still exists, but so does the Law of Chastity.  One could say they are even contradicting if one expects they must be completely fulfilled at the same time because how else but by breaking the law of chastity can they multiple if there is no one who wants to marry you?  
 

We are taught there are times and seasons for commandments and we can’t obey all of them at the same time and shouldn’t usually  feel guilty if we truly can’t. For example, young mothers get told that now is not their time to obey the commandment to seek our dead through family history work as the time and concentration needed for it clashes with the needs of our young children. The way prepared to fulfill those commandments is to be all in on being mom when your kids need you to be all in and then when they have grown more independent, add in family history work. There may come a season where being a mother or father is far secondary to FH work, such as when you go on a FH senior mission.  The commandments seen this way are complementary, taking their turns to be followed so that they may also add their part of the process of sanctification to the work of creating an exalted human being.

 In the first case, if the First Couple chose to stay in the Garden, then they were commanded not to eat the fruit and the path was set to first fulfill that commandment just fine.  In the second case, if they chose to focus on multiply and replenish, they would prepare their souls by partaking of the fruit and moving residences in the immediate as well as the distant future.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yep, cos people who fall and repent aren't worthy to be with those who, like you, choose the 'higher way'.

No forgiveness, no repentance allowed it appears 

[filovirus]

There is a fallacy in the OP’s thinking of 1 Nephi 3:7, similar to the missing dollar fallacy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_dollar_riddle

By using this scripture to apply to both of the different commands together rather than individually that were given to Adam and Eve, we are combining equations that should not be combined.

Let’s take each command individually and see if this verse applies.

Multiply and replenish the earth: Did God prepare a way for this commandment to be fulfilled? Anyone who says “no” is flat out wrong. Of course there is a way to fulfill it. We know this for a fact because we are here. Adam and Eve did multiply and replenish the earth.

Do not partake of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil: Did God prepare a way for this commandment to be fulfilled? Anyone who says “no” is flat out wrong. Of course there is a way to fulfill it. Just don’t partake. Simple as that.

These two commandments are not contradictory, even though we sometimes view them as being that way. Just because breaking one will lead to being valiant on the other does not make them part of the same equation, and Nephi’s promise is always in tact as long as there is a choice involved.

So ultimately it comes down to choice. There is agency involved in the fulfillment of both. God prepared a way that each commandment could be fulfilled individually.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

No forgiveness, no repentance allowed it appears 

Or allowed but lesser/'Plan B'?

It begins to look like the Atonement is for losers when what God really wanted (His 'Plan A') was winners ...

Edited June 14, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[CV75]

12 hours ago, Obeone said:

Laws are different but God is the same, and He cannot contradict Himself. 

This is why His commandments are only seemingly contradicting. There are laws that allow a command in one kingdom to be contradicted (contraindicated) in another.

11 hours ago, Obeone said:

A commandment that is not suspended is the higher law. Not partaking the forbidden fruit was the higher law, because it would have allowed them to have a higher level of existence, for themselves and for their posterity: a Millennium right out of the gate, just like millions of worlds have done before. They took the lesser law, and were cursed for it. Just stating the facts here. Read it for yourself.

"Higher" and "lesser" as you use them are not facts, but interpretations. Suspendibility has nothing to do with  a law's higher or lesser nature, given that “that which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another”. You are replacing logic with rationalization.

10 hours ago, Obeone said:

Death in the Millennium is not worth of the name. In a blink of an eye they are changed from Terrestrial to resurrected Celestial, if they deserve it.

Adam and Eve could have had the same had they listened to God at the time.

The Lord Himself says of the Millennium:

And now you are replacing logic with rhetoric and cherry-picking. Death in the Millennium is still death. D&C 101:29-30 means there is not sorrow because there is no untimely death.

[pogi]

10 hours ago, Obeone said:

This goes both ways: If Adam fell and Eve did not, Eve would have gotten a different husband from the Lord, and Adam would have been cast out.

Maybe it would be best to simply state that the Lord would have provided a way instead of speculating what that way might be. 

This idea that the Lord would force the divorce or separation of husband and wife over a single transgression seems to debase the sanctity of the sealing bond.  Eve was a pretty special and important wife and mother - made from his own rib.  If Adam was a polygamist, he would be pretty low on rib count  

[Bernard Gui]

14 hours ago, pogi said:

I don’t think that specific transgression was inevitable, but that transgression itself was inevitable - they not being half God and all… 

I think think after a trillion years, Adam might have eventually transgressed after being commanded not to lie for example - “no Eve, that sheep skin doesn’t make you look fat…”  Or, “No Cain, I don’t know what happened to your squirrel dinner left-overs.”

It seems to me that this goes against your argument. God gives a commandment that inevitably will be broken by Adam if given enough time. Adam is set up to fall.
 

According to Lehi they would not have children, so there would be no one to lie to other than Eve, the Gods, and Lucifer.

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, Obeone said:

Yes. If Eve fell and Adam did not, Adam would obviously get another wife from God who would listen to Him. "Thou shall be left alone man in the garden of Eden" was another lie of the devil transmitted through Eve.

Adam obviously would not have been left alone.

When one spouse falls and the other does not, God always provides a better replacement. 

Oh my flippin gosh. Ru flds?

[Bernard Gui]

13 hours ago, Obeone said:

I think God has a sense of humor and of justice. 

He allowed latter day saints to have a gaping error in the middle of their doctrine, a point that the rest of the world gets correctly, so that His church would not be arrogant when all the cards are laid down and the truth is revealed in the eyes of all. 

The world gets pretty much everything wrong except the fall, and we get pretty much everything right  except the fall. A poetic inversion, so we would understand in the end that we need them, and they need us. We are nothing without each-other.  

There is one more point of inversion. Perhaps I'll talk about it later. 

It’s absurd to suggest that God’s sense of humor has a part in the Fall or the priesthood ban. You appear to be playing games.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

It’s absurd to suggest that God’s sense of humor has a part in the Fall or the priesthood ban. You appear to be playing games. 

9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh my flippin gosh. Ru flds?

Yeah. This whole exercise appears to be disingenuous.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Obeone]

9 hours ago, filovirus said:

Sound like we are getting a lot of ifs. Do you really think God didn’t know exactly how it would turn out.

He did. It doesn't mean that Adam did the right thing.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

This is why His commandments are only seemingly contradicting. There are laws that allow a command in one kingdom to be contradicted (contraindicated) in another.

"Higher" and "lesser" as you use them are not facts, but interpretations. Suspendibility has nothing to do with  a law's higher or lesser nature, given that “that which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another”. You are replacing logic with rationalization.

And now you are replacing logic with rhetoric and cherry-picking. Death in the Millennium is still death. D&C 101:29-30 means there is not sorrow because there is no untimely death.

Not to mention a scientific, "positivistic" interpretation of scripture, which of course is neither.

Sigh

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Hasta la vista.

Make that two.