The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

[Obeone]

7 minutes ago, manol said:

Obeone, while I lean towards your line of thinking, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the importance you attribute to the acceptance of your ideas:

Why is having the correct belief about the Fall so crucial? 

Do you think anyone has gone beyond the Telestial Kingdom without having essentially the same understanding of the Fall that you are describing here? 

Thank you! I think we are resurrected and transformed to a given glory via transformation of our minds. (Example: the three Nephites were caught up into heaven where they saw and heard things which transformed their minds and bodies).

The fall occurred through a lie, would not then the truth that reverses the lie be the way back to the glory lost? Does it make sense to you? 

[Obeone]

9 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Both most certainly can be true! For instance, since the dawn of the restoration prepubescent Latter-Day Saint children are taught that God commands them to marry and have children, even though at the time they learn of their obligation to keep that commandment they are utterly incapable of having children. Why couldn’t precisely the same situation be true for Adam and Eve? After all, we are taught that at the time the preexistent spirit of Michael the archangel became incarnate he forgot all that went before and became like a little child.

Interesting point. However, little children are not commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. Adam was.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Obeone said:

Everyone must be free to exercise their agency, so that everyone may receive all the blessings they are willing to enjoy. That necessitated a veil, which those who desire can overcome, and thus gain joy in their victory, grow as individuals, and return to God's presence victorious. 

Why couldn’t we exercise agency in God’s presence.  Lucifer certainly did.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Obeone said:

Everyone must be free to exercise their agency, so that everyone may receive all the blessings they are willing to enjoy. That necessitated a veil, which those who desire can overcome, and thus gain joy in their victory, grow as individuals, and return to God's presence victorious. 

This sounds like you believe we save ourselves.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

How do you explain "Adam fell that man might be?"

While Obese and I share some similar interpretations, we differ in several ways too. 

One point of interest in this story that is often overlooked is that Eve was not directly commanded by God to not partake of the fruit in any scriptural account.

Note the chronology of events here:

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“And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.  And I the Lord God said unto mine Only Begotten, that it was not good that the man should be alone; wherefore, I will make him an help meet for him” (Moses 3:16-18).

In all three scriptural accounts of this commandment, including the books of Genesis, Moses, and Abraham, the Lord specifically commanded “the man” to not partake of the fruit.  Indeed, it appears that Adam was still alone at the time of the commandment and Eve was not yet created in all scriptural accounts. If she did hear it at all, it was by the mouth of her husband, the first patriarch and prophet, by whose side she stood.  

The fall, in scripture, is always attributed to Adam, and not Eve.  Paul made it clear that it was Adam’s transgression and not Eve’s that brought mortality into the world.

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“…by one man’s offence death reigned by one…” (Rom 5:17)

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 “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.” (Rom 5:18-19)

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“We believe that men will be punished for their own sins and not Adam’s transgression.” (AoF)

Why is it stated this way if Eve was the first one to be deceived and fall?  Who knows, maybe the chronology of events has something to do with it?  

It was not the transgression of two people that brought about the fall, it was the transgression of one man, Adam.  "Adam fell that man might be."  It doesn't mention Eve.  Curious indeed.  Adam truly did fall that men might be.  He thought that Eve would be separated from him and that he therefore had to fall to be with her.   I am convinced that God would have provided a way for them had he obeyed.  Perhaps they would have been separated, we don't know that for sure, that is just what Lucifer told them - God never told that to Eve directly in scripture.  Even if Eve was banished from the Garden, when was Adam ever constrained from leaving the garden?  Would he have been forced to stay there?  I don't see any reason why this would be the case.   No conjugal visits, at least? 😀 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by pogi

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Obeone said:

think the church will know it within 5 years or so.

Why?  How will they finally learn this?

[Obeone]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Why couldn’t we exercise agency in God’s presence.  Lucifer certainly did.

We did exercise agency in God's presence, but I guess it would have taken much longer to reveal our true desires, unless a veil was placed over our minds, then we could have truth revealed to us according to our desires, and according to us being ready to receive it. 

What do you think? I'm happy to learn. 

[Obeone]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

This sounds like you believe we save ourselves.

Even Jesus could not save or heal people who did not believe in Him.

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

doesn't mention Eve.  Curious indeed.

Not so unusual given how the female side is often nonexistent or subsumed under “man”.

[Calm]

Just now, Obeone said:

Even Jesus could not save or heal people who did not believe in Him.

Again it sounds like we are saving ourselves, do you believe this?

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Obeone said:

We did exercise agency in God's presence, but I guess it would have taken much longer to reveal our true desires, unless a veil was placed over our minds, then we could have truth revealed to us according to our desires, and according to us being ready to receive it. 

What do you think? I'm happy to learn. 

I have already explained my POV in an earlier post.

[Obeone]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

One point of interest in this story that is often overlooked is that Eve was not directly commanded by God to not partake of the fruit in any scriptural account.

What about here?

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And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:2)

[pogi]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Not so unusual given how the female side is often nonexistent or subsumed under “man”.

True.  But is there anything to the same chronology of events in all three books of scripture?  Eve wasn't even created yet when God commanded Adam to not partake of the fruit.  

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Obeone said:

😃 What explains why I am right is the words of God and Reason. Nothing more. 

Why the prophets are wrong in their opinions about the fall? Perhaps they are blinded by the authority and standing of Adam, who is an archangel after all. Perhaps they are blinded by authority and standing of Joseph Smith, who is a head of the Final Dispensation, and one of the 7 angels spoken of in the book of Revelation. They venerate these men so much that it suspends their critical and rational thinking, even to the point they unwittingly make God Himself a liar!

In saying all this, I have high respect for Adam, Joseph, and all the prophets and apostles who were so deceived. They will embrace the truth when they are finally confronted with it. 

In fact, I believe Adam would be forever damned, and not allowed to rule over the earth, unless he publicly admits to all that God indeed had a better way for him in the garden, were Adam willing to listen to God more than to the devil. I think Adam-ondi-Ahman will in large part be about this: Adam apologizing for the fall.  I think the church will know it within 5 years or so. Then shortly Zion will finally be redeemed, and New Jerusalem built. Watch and see. Not too long now. ...

LOL

No.

[filovirus]

1 Nephi 3:7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

Does the bolded relate to Adam and Eve?

When were Adam and Eve commanded to multiply and replenish the earth? Depending on how one reads Genesis 1 & 2, Moses 2 & 3, and D&C 29 it may have been during the spiritual creation before they were placed in Eden.

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Again it sounds like we are saving ourselves, do you believe this?

Wait for it. It’s coming. In my experience, this line of reasoning always includes a strong ‘anti-Christ’ element wherein the proponent believes he is righteous of himself. 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Obeone said:

A commandment that is not suspended is the higher law. Not partaking the forbidden fruit was the higher law, because it would have allowed them to have a higher level of existence, for themselves and for their posterity: a Millennium right out of the gate, just like millions of worlds have done before. They took the lesser law, and were cursed for it. Just stating the facts here. Read it for yourself.

Yet Adam lived his life, experiencing it in tons more details than conveyed by the limited scripture we have, was taught by angelic messengers and God himself and yet misses the most basic, fundamental point of his existence, but you ferreted it out by reason?

It seems highly unlikely to me.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Calm

[pogi]

Just now, Obeone said:

What about here?

Fair enough.  But as I noted, this would have been through Adam's recitation of events, and not something that was directly commanded by God to Eve, that there is any account of.  

Either way, I think it is a lesser point.  Just a curious point of interest.   

[Obeone]

17 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am certain that God would have provided a way for had he obeyed.

Yes. If Eve fell and Adam did not, Adam would obviously get another wife from God who would listen to Him. "Thou shall be left alone man in the garden of Eden" was another lie of the devil transmitted through Eve.

Adam obviously would not have been left alone.

When one spouse falls and the other does not, God always provides a better replacement. 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Obeone

[Obeone]

18 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why?  How will they finally learn this?

I think Adam will tell them.

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 minutes ago, Obeone said:

If Eve fell and Adam did not, Adam would obviously get another wife from God who would listen to Him.

And here comes the requisite misogyny…

[Obeone]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

Again it sounds like we are saving ourselves, do you believe this?

Salvation is a partnership between God and man. No one can be saved except through their faith in God and His Son.

[pogi]

11 minutes ago, filovirus said:

1 Nephi 3:7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

Does the bolded relate to Adam and Eve?

Yes, just as it equally applies to them here:

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9 And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name...
 
10 And he shall arise the third day from the dead; and behold, he standeth to judge the world; and behold, all these things are done that a righteous judgment might come upon the children of men.

I think that clearly applies to Adam and Eve as explained by gramps. 
 

Further corroborating scriptures:

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Genesis 18:14

Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son. 

 

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Philippians 4:13

I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

 

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“Stop, and stand still until I command thee, and I will provide means whereby thou mayest accomplish the thing which I have commanded thee” (D&C 5:34).  

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1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

 

 

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And here comes the requisite misogyny…

Eve as a throwaway rather than the covenanted partner is  given the temple experience. 

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, Obeone said:

When one spouse falls and the other does not, God always provides a better replacement. 

No sanctification of the nonbeliever by the believing spouse as taught in the NT then?