The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

[Bernard Gui]

13 hours ago, Obeone said:

😃 What explains why I am right is the words of God and Reason. Nothing more. 

Why the prophets are wrong in their opinions about the fall? Perhaps they are blinded by the authority and standing of Adam, who is an archangel after all. Perhaps they are blinded by authority and standing of Joseph Smith, who is a head of the Final Dispensation, and one of the 7 angels spoken of in the book of Revelation. They venerate these men so much that it suspends their critical and rational thinking, even to the point they unwittingly make God Himself a liar!

In saying all this, I have high respect for Adam, Joseph, and all the prophets and apostles who were so deceived. They will embrace the truth when they are finally confronted with it. 

In fact, I believe Adam would be forever damned, and not allowed to rule over the earth, unless he publicly admits to all that God indeed had a better way for him in the garden, were Adam willing to listen to God more than to the devil. I think Adam-ondi-Ahman will in large part be about this: Adam apologizing for the fall.  I think the church will know it within 5 years or so. Then shortly Zion will finally be redeemed, and New Jerusalem built. Watch and see. Not too long now. ...

Quote

... no one who believes this garbage about "no better way but to transgress" can be resurrected or restored to Terrestrial glory or above. Which clearly means that all the honorable prophets and apostles who believed this nonsense will have to change their minds on the point before they are resurrected or before they receive a terrestrial glory or above.

It is clear to me that anyone who believes this lie, that was started by the devil himself(!), unwittingly makes God a liar, a self-contradictory God, which is no God at all!

I know probably no one means it that way, but if they think this through, this is exactly what this means.

 

Now the truth finally appears. The rope is getting longer. Hasta la vista.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, pogi said:

In all three scriptural accounts of this commandment, including the books of Genesis, Moses, and Abraham, the Lord specifically commanded “the man” to not partake of the fruit.  Indeed, it appears that Adam was still alone at the time of the commandment and Eve was not yet created in all scriptural accounts. If she did hear it at all, it was by the mouth of her husband, the first patriarch and prophet, by whose side she stood. 

In the temple Adam uses the pronoun we when referring to the commandment.

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, filovirus said:

1 Nephi 3:7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

Does the bolded relate to Adam and Eve?

When were Adam and Eve commanded to multiply and replenish the earth? Depending on how one reads Genesis 1 & 2, Moses 2 & 3, and D&C 29 it may have been during the spiritual creation before they were placed in Eden.

Thanks. I was going to make this point, but you said it much better. Since this whole thing is based on technicalities, this is a good one. Adam and Eve were not children of men.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

It seems to me that this goes against your argument. God gives a commandment that inevitably will be broken by Adam if given enough time. Adam is set up to fall.

I think there is a difference between having a choice between success and failure and choosing failure of our own agency vs not even having the option of successfully fulfilling commandments.  One has agency and the option to choose obedience, the other doesn't even have agency to choose obedience.  They don't even have the choice.     

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

According to Lehi they would not have children, so there would be no one to lie to other than Eve, the Gods, and Lucifer.

I think you keep forgetting that I believe that they would have eventually partaken of the fruit in righteousness and had children.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Adam is set up to fall.

If Adam does the setting up himself, is it an issue?  They had the choice then, before they entered the garden.  Like someone making an unreachable goal because for them that provides inspiration.  Adam and Eve wanted the experience of mortality…how are they going to get it?  Get together with God and hear the options and they agreed to transgression as the most efficient, effective…maybe even the only way to achieve this.  I don’t see it as qualifying as a set up in that case.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

According to Lehi they would not have children, so there would be no one to lie to other than Eve, the Gods, and Lucifer.

Perhaps the worst lies (because they are the hardest to be challenged in many cases) are the lies we tell ourselves.

[teddyaware]

On 6/11/2022 at 10:11 PM, Obeone said:

The Fall of Adam, an Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

I think these three are closely linked.

How?

The Fall of Adam was caused by an ancient lie.

What lie?

That “there was no other way” for him in the garden but to transgress.

Why is that a lie?

Proof:

1. God does not give impossible commandments (1 Nephi 3:7)
2. God commanded Adam and Eve to have children AND not to partake of the forbidden fruit. Which means:
3. They COULD do it. See point (1).

End of proof.

Ok. And redemption of Zion?

Zion cannot be redeemed from the fall while believing the very lie that caused its fall in the first place.

It makes a lot of sense to me that when Adam visits the Church in Adam-ondi-Ahman, he will end this lie that has been with us for too long. Then Zion will be redeemed and New Jerusalem built.

 

What are your thoughts guys?

Another important fact that completely undermines your mistaken notion that God doesn’t give a commandments unto the children of men unless he prepares a way for them to be able to be obedient to that commandment while in the realm of existence in which the commandment is given is to look at the context of God’s commandment for men and women to multiply found in Moses 2. Let’s take a look at it:

27 And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them.
28 And I, God, blessed them, and said unto them: Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (Moses 2)

Here’s what you missed: If you read the following chapter of Moses (Moses 3), it’s unmistakably clear that the commandment to multiply was given to the ALL the children of God at the time when they were yet spirits in the preexistence. So the all important question that follows is why in the world would God give his preexistent spirit children the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth when there was no way for them to obey that commandment because at that time they were unembodied spirits living with God in heaven.

If you find all of this hard to accept because it destroys the premise of your argument, read the following: 

4 And now, behold, I say unto you, that these are the generations (plural) of the heaven and of the earth, when they were created, in the day that I, the Lord God, made the heaven and the earth,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;
6 But I, the Lord God, spake, and there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word. (Moses 3)

Here’s my question to you: Why did God command his spirit children to multiply and replenish the earth while they were yet unembodied spirits living in heaven, and therefore utterly incapable of keeping the commandment?

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by teddyaware

[Obeone]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

 The Lord will provide a way to fulfill all his commandments, but not necessarily all at the same time.  For example the commandment to multiple and replenish still exists, but so does the Law of Chastity.  One could say they are even contradicting if one expects they must be completely fulfilled at the same time because how else but by breaking the law of chastity can they multiple if there is no one who wants to marry you?  

Commandment to multiply is given only to married people. The Law of Chastity is valid even in marriage. There is zero contradiction here.

You are confusing concurrent and sequential commandments. 

Sequential commandments happen one after another and do not overlap in time. Old commandments may be rescinded, and replaced with new ones.

Concurrent commandments are in force simultaneously.

Adam was subject to concurrent commandments to 1) multiply and 2) not to partake of the forbidden fruit, which means that it was possible to do both simultaneously.

With God it is never necessary to break one commandment in order to keep another, because He does not contradict Himself. 

It is impossible to "break" a commandment that was rescinded. 

The commandment not to partake was not rescinded, but was in full force. Therefore it was the higher law at the time.

 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Obeone

[Obeone]

dup deleted

Edited June 14, 2022 by Obeone

[Obeone]

10 hours ago, filovirus said:

There is a fallacy in the OP’s thinking of 1 Nephi 3:7, similar to the missing dollar fallacy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_dollar_riddle

By using this scripture to apply to both of the different commands together rather than individually that were given to Adam and Eve, we are combining equations that should not be combined.

Let’s take each command individually and see if this verse applies.

Multiply and replenish the earth: Did God prepare a way for this commandment to be fulfilled? Anyone who says “no” is flat out wrong. Of course there is a way to fulfill it. We know this for a fact because we are here. Adam and Eve did multiply and replenish the earth.

Do not partake of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil: Did God prepare a way for this commandment to be fulfilled? Anyone who says “no” is flat out wrong. Of course there is a way to fulfill it. Just don’t partake. Simple as that.

These two commandments are not contradictory, even though we sometimes view them as being that way. Just because breaking one will lead to being valiant on the other does not make them part of the same equation, and Nephi’s promise is always in tact as long as there is a choice involved.

So ultimately it comes down to choice. There is agency involved in the fulfillment of both. God prepared a way that each commandment could be fulfilled individually.

The same response as here.

[Obeone]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

If Adam was a polygamist, he would be pretty low on rib count  

He who can make a woman out of a rib, can give you another rib. Just saying. 😉

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

In the temple Adam uses the pronoun we when referring to the commandment.

I thought that was only socially acceptable in the last few years...

[Obeone]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Here’s my question to you: Why did God command his spirit children to multiply and replenish the earth while they were yet unembodied spirits living in heaven, and therefore utterly incapable of keeping the commandment?

The commandment to multiply was given to Adam and Eve in the garden. It is clear from the scripture and the Temple.

Be fruitful, multiply, be happy and have joy therein (in the Garden).

It would make for a psychopathic God who told them to have "joy" in the garden, while making it impossible for them to have "joy" unless they were kicked out of it! 

Don't you think? Remember the "Having no joy...." argument?

[pogi]

32 minutes ago, Obeone said:

He who can make a woman out of a rib, can give you another rib. Just saying. 😉

A word of advice, people are already pretty hesitant to stretch beyond traditional interpretations, I think you would do best to keep it simple.  Stick to the scriptures.  Avoid theories of replacing Eve and the condemnation of prophets and of Zion because they believe different from you, etc. 

[Obeone]

9 minutes ago, Obehave said:

I think you mean the commandment is intended and applicable only to a man and woman who are married, but I like the gist of what you are saying and I agree with most of your message.

How much does one need to know before one can ascend from telestial to terrestrial or even celestial levels of glory, though?  Hmm.  I am not so sure about that.  We do have some celestial bits of glory now, I think, and the goal for me is to gain more.

Nice name! Thanks. 

I think anyone who believes a lie that caused the fall from Terrestrial glory, cannot be restored to that glory, while still believing the lie. 

The body is transformed through the mind. 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Obeone

[Obeone]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

A word of advice, people are already pretty hesitant to stretch beyond traditional interpretations, I think you would do best to keep it simple.  Stick to the scriptures.  Avoid theories of replacing Eve and the condemnation of prophets and of Zion because they believe different from you, etc. 

I am condemning no one.  I simply share what I have learned. That's all.

[pogi]

25 minutes ago, Obeone said:

I am condemning no one.  I simply share what I have learned. That's all.

It sounds like you are saying that Zion, and all of its prophets, and anyone who doesn't interpret it your way are under condemnation until they believe like you.  

[Obeone]

7 minutes ago, Obehave said:

Obeone, I like most of what what you've said about the Fall and what you are calling the Ancient Lie.  Please elaborate some more on what you see or perceive to be the Redemption of Zion. 

I understand Zion to be the term our Lord uses to refer to those who are pure in heart in this world.  Those who are and those who were, such as Enoch and those of his city or the people who lived with and near him.

I also understand Jesus Christ to be the one and only thing or person who can save us, by us accepting him individually, regardless of whether or not anyone else accepts him or what he says both personally and through his messengers.

So I'd like to hear or read as much as you know or would like to share of what you know about the Redemption of Zion.

Redemption of Zion is simply establishment and building of the New Jerusalem. When this happens Zion will become independent of any other creature under heaven, and we will have no king but Jesus.

Also, the curse of Adam will be lifted in the City. That's why it is key to disabuse the Church from the lie that produced the curse in the first place. 

Thus Terrestrial state begins in the City, with the Tree of Life, and this state and the City begin to grow, until it fills North and South America. Then Second Coming happens, and the Terrestrial state will fill the world. 

Then, poetically Adam/Michael will declare the return of the planet to Terrestrial glory. "There will be time (death) no longer."

Edited June 14, 2022 by Obeone

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, Obeone said:

I think anyone who believes a lie that caused the fall from Terrestrial glory, cannot be restored to that glory, while still believing the lie. 

Can they even act with authority from God in that state?

[MiserereNobis]

16 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

In my experience, those who espouse the heresy you are advocating for here nearly always believe themselves to be examples of what it looks like to progress without sin/transgression.

Ooo, the word heresy isn't tossed around here very often. Would you like the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition to lend you a hand in investigating this?  

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Obehave said:

also understand Jesus Christ to be the one and only thing or person who can save us, by us accepting him individually, regardless of whether or not anyone else accepts him or what he says both personally and through his messengers.

This sounds like you believe Christ can and will save us in our sins and as long as he accepts us everything else is irrelevant?  Is that an accurate interpretation of your belief?

[Obeone]

8 minutes ago, pogi said:

It sounds like you are saying that Zion, and all of its prophets, and anyone who doesn't interpret it your way are under condemnation until they believe like you.  

If they believe "there was no better way but to transgress" then they believe a Satanic lie (he was literally the one who originated it). And if one believes a Satanic lie, they bring themselves under the influence/condemnation of it. It is all self-inflicted really.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Obeone said:

If they believe "there was no better way but to transgress" then they believe a Satanic lie (he was literally the one who originated it). And if one believes a Satanic lie, they bring themselves under the influence/condemnation of it. It is all self-inflicted really.

And what does this condemnation entail?

[Obeone]

10 minutes ago, Obehave said:

I understand the mind is often synonymous with what we refer to as our spirit.  And I also understand that we can be right about some things while being wrong about some other things, with or within our mind or our spirit.

We're not all right, and we're also not all wrong, individually speaking of us or our minds or our spirits.  So who is to save us from all of this mess?  How are we to ever find out what is right and what is wrong?  Can you tell me that much?

 

Sure. Only God and His Spirit can tell you what is ultimately right. Pray about it.

And only the Father can save you, and that through His Son.

[Obeone]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Can they even act with authority from God in that state?

Yes they can. But getting the glory back is the different story.