CRT questions

[bsjkki]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

Did you buy it?  I don’t have kindle. 

You can watch it on youtube. My current service is poor. I am troubled by its recommend age. It was designed for 4-8 year olds. I can see why police associations are against it. I would hope the book tempers these two pages I found on Amazon reviews. Do we really want this taught to basically, junior primary aged children? To fear police?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 minute ago, bsjkki said:

You can watch it on youtube. My current service is poor. I am troubled by its recommend age. It was designed for 4-8 year olds. I can see why police associations are against it. I would hope the book tempers these two pages I found on Amazon reviews. Do we really want this taught to basically, junior primary aged children? To fear police?

And you don’t think that 4-8 year old black kids aren’t hearing that? The statement from the brother is mitigated on the next page by statements from both the mother and the father. We don’t solve problems by pretending they don’t exist. Although I guess for most white people it’s not a problem for them so whatever?

[The Nehor]

I am not convinced a default trust of police in children and teenagers is a good thing.

[Bob Crockett]

In what school districts is this book actually being used?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

5 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

In what school districts is this book actually being used?

Minnesota fourth graders from the article? Not like anything has been going on up there over the last couple years that forth graders may be hearing about

[bsjkki]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am not convinced a default trust of police in children and teenagers is a good thing.

Nor is a default trust in your Bishop, or your teacher, or your parent or cousin or neighbor. I need to read the whole book to get all the context and I can’t right now. As a parent, I would want this reviewed thoroughly by each family so they can follow up at home. 

[The Nehor]

36 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I am writing a 250 page manuscript entitled "Invisibles in Plain Sight: Critical Race Theory and Beyond" with a whole chapter on CRT in public schools. I will simply say that a wikipedia or historical definition of CRT as it was as a legal theory fifty years ago has very little bearing on its application today. That is like a man stating that LDS folks still don't allow the priesthood for blacks today because he read something from an LDS authority from 1950. You all talk about a apostasy. The current state of CRT in popular and activist usage is an apostasy of the original. The apostles no longer have control. No one has control over the use of the name, no one speaks for CRT. Anyone can say anything they want in its name. The creed written in the 1970s is no long applicable to what is being done popularly by the disciples, advocates, and those selling an ideology in the name of the original. There is no correlation between CRT as a legal theory of Harvard's Derrick Bell and what some of you studied in law school, and what folks are selling today. It is truly a great apostasy. I wish I could use that term in my book, but no one outside of this forum and the LDS community would understand it. CRT, in its current manifestation has become a dogma; a religion of sorts.

Many folks don't understand about the apostasy but they can intuit it when they read certain elements of what is taught by those who seek credibility by tying their work into that of CRT. I just took a break from writing to come here and check out the forum. Imagine my surprise to see this new topic.  I just wrote a quote from a Mennonite guy (interestingly) who makes his living teaching "CRT" in schools and churches. I just quoted him from one of his books, "My whiteness is probably the foremost determiner of success or failure in the life ahead of me." Is that a radical concept? I am not sure, but I sure don't agree with it. My foremost determiner of success or failure in my life is my faith and all it teaches me. Because I disagree with him, doesn't make him wrong. But that statement would drive a lot of folks nuts who are white, have struggled, and don't feel particularly privileged or supreme.

I would simply suggest that we shouldn't defend the current and apostate iteration of CRT by what it was in its roots. It is what it has become in the hands of pundits, and disciples with no boundaries or limits that has made it challenging. There is no correlation committee or oversight among purveyors of what goes by CRT today. Part of the challenge is indeed that many critics don't know what they are really talking about; and many advocates are pushing a training and educational curriculum, especially for teachers that is being termed as CRT (by its purveyors), when it has virtually no connection or correlation to the original law articles and books of the founders. I have worked in over 100 public school districts, including a number of very large urban districts from coast to coast. I made decisions of funding training and sat through many of them. FWIW

This approach requires that the definition of CRT was something that changed gradually over time. It didn’t. In 2014 it was still the same field as it was when it started. Of course the people writing about it changed their views and what they were discussing but what the theory was about and what it encompassed had not. Then suddenly it was massively expanded for this campaign.

Quote

But that statement would drive a lot of folks nuts who are white, have struggled, and don't feel particularly privileged or supreme.

Again:

They may not feel privileged or supreme but they sure feel privileged and supreme enough to make it all about them.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, bsjkki said:

Nor is a default trust in your Bishop, or your teacher, or your parent or cousin or neighbor. I need to read the whole book to get all the context and I can’t right now. As a parent, I would want this reviewed thoroughly by each family so they can follow up at home. 

Bishops and teachers and cousins and neighbors aren’t generally part of an institution that has an ongoing problem with overt racism and targeting and harassing minorities. The police also have a lot more power to ruin lives. Have a look at the video compilations of police attacking people who are not resisting. The ones where they are planting evidence on suspects. The videos and audio of overt racism that have been captured. The cover-ups and closing the circle to protect those who are caught doing these things. It is secret combination stuff.

[Navidad]

53 minutes ago, Calm said:

Have you read the actual book in question?

Here is a partial reading:

https://www.apa.org/pubs/magination/pdf/something-happened-our-town-sample-pages.pdf

Artwork is great.  Well written as well. 
 

Here is the teacher’s guide. Thought it was decent. Note the discussion about the police and how it ends with a positive question about police:

 

FWIW, I like the book in question. Very well written and illustrated. I agree 100% with that.

[bsjkki]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Bishops and teachers and cousins and neighbors aren’t generally part of an institution that has an ongoing problem with overt racism and targeting and harassing minorities. The police also have a lot more power to ruin lives. Have a look at the video compilations of police attacking people who are not resisting. The ones where they are planting evidence on suspects. The videos and audio of overt racism that have been captured. The cover-ups and closing the circle to protect those who are caught doing these things. It is secret combination stuff.

I will leave out Bishops from my list for this statement. No, they’re getting sexually abused by that group. Nehor, I won’t argue there are bad cops. There are bad cops. I think we differ on the ratio of good to bad. One minute they’re our hero first responders, the next devils. I’ve got whiplash. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

Nor is a default trust in your Bishop, or your teacher, or your parent or cousin or neighbor. I need to read the whole book to get all the context and I can’t right now. As a parent, I would want this reviewed thoroughly by each family so they can follow up at home. 

I would definitely agree with that. I think the book is excellent at opening up the topic and providing an easy way for kids to feel more in control by presenting a smaller issue they can deal with, but for the topic of police shootings more support is needed as well as slavery in family history of black and white families especially given many are mixed and may have both slaves and slave owners. I would be concerned if that was the only aid used and it wasn’t developed more with the kids left to deal with it unguided. Way too many ways for that to go wrong with their own self esteem. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Calm

[Navidad]

43 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t know whether to laugh or to cry.

Why do either? Just talk to me. I don't know anyone who wants to dilute the teaching of accurate history or about racial problems. There I said it again. I didn't say there isn't anyone, did I? I said "I don't know anyone with those views." Laugh or cry, that is the truth.

[Ipod Touch]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

And which side caused the problem by redefining the word and never explaining what they mean? Yeah, I am gonna blame them for all the confusion.

Yeah.  Only one side.  Get out of your bubble dude.  Or try and defend this:

https://www.macon.com/news/state/georgia/article253467879.html

Quote

 

A Georgia parent has filed a federal civil rights complaint against her daughter’s grade school accusing its principal of segregating students based on their race, multiple outlets report.

Kila Posey, 43, said she was in “disbelief” after learning administrators at Mary Lin Elementary School in Atlanta were relegating the school’s Black students into separate classes apart from their white peers, according to WSB-TV. The practice was allegedly put in place by the school’s principal, Sharyn Briscoe — who’s also Black.

Posey couldn’t believe “that I was having this conversation in 2020 with a person that looks just like me — a Black woman,” she told the news station. “It’s segregating classrooms. You cannot segregate classrooms. You can’t do it.”

 

 

[Calm]

48 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

Yeah.  Only one side.  Get out of your bubble dude.  Or try and defend this:

https://www.macon.com/news/state/georgia/article253467879.html

 

It is done at times with segregation by sex because it allows kids to ask questions they might not ask in mixed settings. I don’t see an inherent issue against doing a small groups setting by gender and/or racial/ethnic background to gather concerns that then could be used by the teacher in classroom discussions without identifying who brought it up in the first place. Having multiple groups rather than just two would also be wise to avoid kids assuming who questions came from though some sharing would likely happen. 
 

Added:  It sounds like the principal didn’t want black kids to feel isolated by being the only one or one of a few in the class. In high school, one of my black friends didn’t care or so she expressed herself, she might have been just trying to help us feel better about it, but I got more a vibe she was tired of being asked the question; another student, he said he felt rather awkward for being both the only black and the only jock in an AP class, he was typically very outgoing, but didn’t say much in class. I think that is a very valid concern and the option of having one class with a greater number of black kids but still with significant numbers of whites might be very useful for some cases of kids who feel isolated otherwise, but better to leave to the parent to decide Imo on what concerns are greatest with their child. 
 

My daughter was blessed to be in a class that was at least a third immigrants all through elementary. It worked out that way because it was a French immersion school and only kept one English class for the locals, which included a large apartment complex which was the first landing place of new immigrants to Canada.  Since many were working in learning English, they skipped the immersion classes as did we because I would not be able to help with homework or be much good as room mother. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Calm

[The Nehor]

54 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Why do either? Just talk to me. I don't know anyone who wants to dilute the teaching of accurate history or about racial problems. There I said it again. I didn't say there isn't anyone, did I? I said "I don't know anyone with those views." Laugh or cry, that is the truth.

Have you read the released documents from the 1776 commission?

[The Nehor]

27 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

Yeah.  Only one side.  Get out of your bubble dude.  Or try and defend this:

https://www.macon.com/news/state/georgia/article253467879.html

 

Why in the world would I feel obligated to support that? That is terrible.

[Ipod Touch]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is done at times with segregation by sex because it allows kids to ask questions they might not ask in mixed settings. I don’t see an inherent issue against doing a small groups setting by gender and/or racial/ethnic background to gather concerns that then could be used by the teacher in classroom discussions without identifying who brought it up in the first place. Having multiple groups rather than just two would also be wise to avoid kids assuming who questions came from though some sharing would likely happen. 

These were full classrooms.  For the whole year.  Not just a special class.

[Ipod Touch]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

Why in the world would I feel obligated to support that? That is terrible.

You just said it was only republican conservatives who are causing race issues?  I'm confused.  Is this Black principal a conservative republican?  

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

I will leave out Bishops from my list for this statement. No, they’re getting sexually abused by that group. Nehor, I won’t argue there are bad cops. There are bad cops. I think we differ on the ratio of good to bad. One minute they’re our hero first responders, the next devils. I’ve got whiplash. 

The problem is that the ‘good’ cops show little to no initiative in rooting out and removing ‘bad’ cops. Hence, institutional corruption. Some cops do try to fix it. They usually end up not being cops anymore. It is like if a teacher at a school was caught abusing children and the other teachers closed ranks to protect the abusive teacher. The union stepped in to protect the teacher. Would you call those other teachers ‘good’?

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

You just said it was only republican conservatives who are causing race issues?

No, I didn’t. This race issue has been around since the first immigrants from Africa showed up. I said they are the ones who want to reverse the progress that has been made and want children to grow up with a shallow understanding of racism that will encourage more children to grow up to become white supremacists or at least marginally supportive of or even just indifferent to white supremacy.

3 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

I'm confused.  Is this Black principal a conservative republican?  

I have no idea. Hopefully they were fired.

This is not the “gotcha” you seem to imagine it is.

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

These were full classrooms.  For the whole year.  Not just a special class.

See my edit

[Ipod Touch]

33 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

This is not the “gotcha” you seem to imagine it is.

I don't know anything about gotchas.  But I do know that a parent of any color who opposes this nonsense is right on the money.

 

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

I don't know anything about gotchas.  But I do know that a parent of any color who opposes this nonsense is right on the money.

 

It does remind me of my high school that bused in a good number of blacks from the city south of us that could have led to at least 1/5 of classes being nonwhite, only to end up with most of them in classes together with a few whites and mostly all white classes because of class scheduling set ups.  Only in PE did I have a significant number of nonwhites and since we didn’t have a chance to get to know each other elsewhere in school, most just hung out with their usual groups.  But the school could brag about how it was fighting segregation and defend the class assignments by saying it was based solely on kids’ needs…but as soon as anyone signed up for any AP or music classes, they had very limited choices and those generic classes still filled up quickly with all white since they were the ones prepared by previous schooling to take the advanced classes.  I am not sure how mixed the middle level classes were. I helped to tutor in a couple of remedial math classes and those were probably 50/50. .

Edited August 15, 2021 by Calm

[The Nehor]

20 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

I don't know anything about gotchas.  But I do know that a parent of any color who opposes this nonsense is right on the money.

If you mean that they are right on that one issue yes. If you mean they are, by virtue of taking that stand, right on all racial issue then it slides to a maybe.

[CV75]

4 hours ago, Fether said:

Been studying this a lot and reading up on critical theory. 
 

My first question now is what is the current scenario of CRT and schools?

Scenario 1: Two movements. One to ban CRT from being taught in School. One to start teaching CRT in schools

Scenario 2: One movement to ban CRT in fear that it will start appearing in schools

Or some alternate scenario

also…

If CRT is to be taught in school, what are SPECIFIC examples of how that would look. What lessons would be taught and what would NOT be taught? For example, the people I am around paint CRT is being anti-white and topic where we learn about how all whites are evil and the more of a minority you are the better of a person you are. It strips everything about who you are away as being evil.
Lose Lose Examples permeate all discussion. Like the classic Prager U video gives the example of a store owner who has a white man and a black man enter his store. If he helps the black man first, it’s because he doesn’t trust him to be in the store for too long. If he helps the white man first, it’s because he thinks whites are better. Is this an accurate representation?

This will vary by school district.