CRT questions

[Danzo]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

I assume that in your youth, you saw racism that was upheld by laws and societies’ at times almost codified behaviour (white only clubs, etc).  That would be, I am assuming, why you saw it as important to follow the lead of Dr. King and others.

Why is “systemic racism” not an appropriate label in your view for the type of racism that creates rules, legal and cultural, that sustain it?

I think what annoys many people about "Systematic racism" is that so many people think  adopting some sort of European style safety net is the only way to fight it.  Unfortunately European countries with those types of safety net still seam to have a good deal of "systematic racism." As anyone who has spent time in those countries can tell you.

[Robert F. Smith]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Have you looked at racial sentencing disparities?

Being the least racist ever is not an end to racism and it does not mean that course will continue. The one black president was endlessly maligned for his race. It is a step but it is not victory. Look at the distribution of wealth, the racial numbers on traffic stops, and a long list of other very unequal situations.

Adopting a policy of total racism will do nothing to end those problems -- that is what BLM and ANTIFA demand, and that is the ideological stance of CRT.  That is a woke religion of lies and violence.  It utterly rejects the Gospel of Jesus Christ, even as it completely disregards the legacy of MLK.

[The Nehor]

Just now, Robert F. Smith said:

Adopting a policy of total racism will do nothing to end those problems -- that is what BLM and ANTIFA demand, and that is the ideological stance of CRT.  That is a woke religion of lies and violence.  It utterly rejects the Gospel of Jesus Christ, even as it completely disregards the legacy of MLK.

CRT is not a policy of total racism. Uncovering racism is not perpetuating racism just like being blind to racism doesn’t eradicate it.

[Robert F. Smith]

30 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

This, one of the tenets of CRT is that the objective of “colorblindness” perpetuates racism. It soothes the consciences of the advantaged and gives them justification to ignore calls for justice from the disadvantaged. It is not unique to CRT. It is generally recognized by virtually all dedicated advocates for eliminating racial discrimination as a stumbling block. Here is a good summary of the problems though I think this article simplifies the cure:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/culturally-speaking/201112/colorblind-ideology-is-form-racism

The flaw is in the word itself: blind. It is pretending to not see something you do see and that does influence you.

That does work if you believe in Alice in Wonderland or you go Through the Looking Glass.  Especially if you have a guilty conscience -- or imagine that you do.  Reminds me of the self-criticism sessions used by the Soviets and Maoists to break down the commitment to high moral and ethical principles which got in the way of willingness to commit major crimes on behalf of the "cause."

[Danzo]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

CRT is not a policy of total racism. Uncovering racism is not perpetuating racism just like being blind to racism doesn’t eradicate it.

How exactly does one go about eradicating racism? You seem to have thought about this slot. How does one go about their daily lives as a devoted antiracist? 

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That does work if you believe in Alice in Wonderland or you go Through the Looking Glass.  Especially if you have a guilty conscience -- or imagine that you do.  Reminds me of the self-criticism sessions used by the Soviets and Maoists to break down the commitment to high moral and ethical principles which got in the way of willingness to commit major crimes on behalf of the "cause."

The Soviets and Maoists did critical self-examinations of the way they were treating Ukrainians or Tibetans to determine if they had subtle biases against them they needed to correct and this broke down their high moral and ethical principles?

[Robert F. Smith]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

CRT is not a policy of total racism. Uncovering racism is not perpetuating racism just like being blind to racism doesn’t eradicate it.

In "The Good Witch" (2008), the witch taught a young girl to stop dreaming of monsters by substituting dreaming of warm, cuddly puppies.  The new problem was then how to stop dreaming of the puppies.  The replacement theory only leads to an infinite regress.  Is that really what we seek?  

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Danzo said:

How exactly does one go about eradicating racism? You seem to have thought about this slot. How does one go about their daily lives as a devoted antiracist? 

That is what CRT and other disciplines are trying to figure out. I am not convinced it is completely possible. There is a bit of xenophobia in our DNA. I think it can be controlled and mitigated against.

Exaltation should take care of it though. In fact the resurrection in general might.

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

In "The Good Witch" (2008), the witch taught a young girl to stop dreaming of monsters by substituting dreaming of warm, cuddly puppies.  The new problem was then how to stop dreaming of the puppies.  The replacement theory only leads to an infinite regress.  Is that really what we seek?  

You are arguing that racial bias and preconceptions will always be replaced by something equally damaging? In that case I reject the premises.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

The Soviets and Maoists did critical self-examinations of the way they were treating Ukrainians or Tibetans to determine if they had subtle biases against them they needed to correct and this broke down their high moral and ethical principles?

Nope.  But you already knew that those self-criticism sessions were dedicated to disclosing the bourgeois guilt of the participants., i.e., their capitalist class tendencies, even if they had none.  In Black parlance, boujee.  In the end, of course, as Milovan Djilas pointed out, the Soviet system actually established an entirely "new class,' the dictatorship of the proletariat -- which had all the privileges of the former nobility.   The system was an abject failure, as is the neo-Marxist CRT.  All it offers in an infinite regress of racism.

[Robert F. Smith]

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You are arguing that racial bias and preconceptions will always be replaced by something equally damaging? In that case I reject the premises.

That is exactly what CRT offers.

[The Nehor]

Just now, Robert F. Smith said:

Nope.  But you already knew that those self-criticism sessions were dedicated to disclosing the bourgeois guilt of the participants., i.e., their capitalist class tendencies, even if they had none.  In Black parlance, boujee.  In the end, of course, as Milovan Djilas pointed out, the Soviet system actually established an entirely "new class,' the dictatorship of the proletariat -- which had all the privileges of the former nobility.   The system was an abject failure, as is the neo-Marxist CRT.  All it offers in an infinite regress of racism.

It is possible to go too far and search out racism that isn’t there in some kind of deranged mania. So therefore better to let sleeping dogs lie and not confront any racism we might be perpetuating on a conscious of subconscious level? No, I am not going to buy that.

Also, it is not a Neo-Marxist. Marxism advocates for a destiny that history is inevitably moving towards. No one is suggesting that racism is inevitably going to vanish and suddenly we will enter some golden age or critical racismlessness. It is also not tied to communism.

As a Neo-Fascist (since we are just throwing random designations on stuff) I am surprised you are ignorant about this. 

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That is exactly what CRT offers.

No.

[Robert F. Smith]

40 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why do you think it would be impossible?  Systemic racism doesn’t require a system to be completely 100% racist or the system exist simply to protect racist behaviour, some racism simply needs to be present and perpetuated by the system.

But that is a denial of significance.  If systemic racism isn't really systemic, then what are we talking about?  The fallacy of the Call to Perfection intercedes to deny the demand for 100% of anything.  That cannot be what we are seeking, because we can never attain that objective in any area of endeavor.

[Danzo]

13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

That is what CRT and other disciplines are trying to figure out. I am not convinced it is completely possible. There is a bit of xenophobia in our DNA. I think it can be controlled and mitigated against.

Exaltation should take care of it though. In fact the resurrection in general might.

If doesn't appear to be very useful. Teaching math, science, law, economics and finance would be more useful in lifting people out of poverty. 

[Robert F. Smith]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No.

Well, at least you and Nancy Reagan have something in common.

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It is precisely the current woke rejection the high moral and ethical standards which we stood for then which I find completely unacceptable.  Indeed, as John McWhorter points out, this woke racism is a new secular religion.  The demand for a return to segregation a la George Corley Wallace is sick and perverted.

What high moral and ethical standards are being rejected?

Do you see the historic still predominantly black colleges as sick and perverted?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelman_College#1980–present

Is any segregation following in the footsteps of Wallace or could some be following in the footsteps of the founders and supporters of black colleges?

I think why they were suggesting a return to segregation or partial segregation matters, even if mistaken.  In my youth, some feminists pushed for female only classes due to the research that showed girls and young women tend to do better academically, sometimes much better in female only classes.  It was a desire to help students not thriving at the time to thrive.  IMO, those were noble desires, but looking at life as more that just academic scores or leadership roles, I think in the long run that if such segregation had become widespread, integration of women into all levels of society would have been even more delayed then it has (still no female presidents  ).

In none of these arguments in the below link for a girls’ only environment is there a spoken or unspoken argument that boys are inferior and girls need protection from them for that reason.  

https://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/daily-southtown/opinion/ct-sta-slowik-black-only-st-0805-20160804-story.html

Quote

"Sometimes we set aside sections for specific populations, including veterans and older students," she said.

Benefits of limiting enrollment in certain classes to targeted populations include increased engagement and student participation.

"The focus can be on specific issues they face," Crotty said. "For example, veterans face a specific set of challenges. Students feel comfortable and are more likely to open up because they're with other students who are like them."

Moraine Valley's enrollment of more than 34,000 credit and non-credit students includes 38 percent who are minorities.

Higher education loves research, and research shows that college-readiness courses like the one at Moraine Valley improve student retention and graduation rates. Evidence supports the practice of restricting enrollment in a class to blacks only, because outcomes show students are more likely to achieve academic success through interventions like peer support

From reading the principal’s limited published statement in the example given above of two classes with high black numbers (including one with several kids with special needs) with 6 all white classes, it seems she was highly focused on certain research supporting that all else being equal, a black student who has a number of fellow black students is likely to talk and interact more than a black student who is the only black in the class or one of few.  She attempted to do this by splitting the blacks kids in that one grade among two classes rather than 8.  Assuming there are 30 blacks in her school, that gives 15 in each or probably half the class if two classes, where is split among 8, 3 or 5 per class or 10%.  Now while it is possible her prime motivation was a twisted one, perhaps the black principal had no concern with the needs of the white students under her care and saw them being clumped into six classes as a great way not to have to pay attention to them while focusing resources on the black students in the two classes….but there is nothing to indicate that was her motivation.  I see no reason not to give her the benefit of the doubt as having a desire to help all the children under her care, but having too narrow of a vision for her role.

There are always costs to programs that elevate certain needs over others.  While many would agree about the kinds of costs involved in all or predominantly single group classes, the value of those costs is subjective and therefore two different people, both with noble aspirations may end up judging a choice meant to encourage greater equality in a society as ultimately failing while another sees it as successful.  I don’t see much good accomplished by trashing someone as sick and perverted because they likely placed one very important need as too high in importance in relationship with other important needs.  

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Well, at least you and Nancy Reagan have something in common.

I don’t know how else to respond to your weird mind reading of how CRT ‘has to work’ and default assumption that everything is communism and Marxism when they are clearly not.

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

If systemic racism isn't really systemic, then what are we talking about?

Has racism ever been systemic in your view in the US?  If not, why not?

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, Danzo said:

If doesn't appear to be very useful. Teaching math, science, law, economics and finance would be more useful in lifting people out of poverty. 

Since CRT is only taught in any depth in college it is a pretty fair bet the students have already learned a bit of those. No one is going to cancel math entirely to teach CRT in Elementary school. They aren’t going to teach it at all.

[Calm]

37 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The new problem was then how to stop dreaming of the puppies.

Why was there a need not to dream of puppies?  Cognitive behavioural therapy replaces destructive thoughts with neutral or productive thoughts.  It is not a simple infinite regress.  The Atonement does much the same…in giving tithing we replace fixating on money as ours and instead replace that thought with the view that God gave us what we have and we return a 10% to show our recognition and gratitude.  Selfishness is replaced with Selflessness.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Calm

[Ipod Touch]

45 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

CRT is not a policy of total racism.

You really don't know the basics of CRT do you?

 

[Ipod Touch]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No one is going to cancel math entirely to teach CRT in Elementary school.

LOL... learn to Google!

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/002205741619600104

"Rethinking Teaching and Learning Mathematics for Social Justice from a Critical Race Perspective"

WTF does race to do with 2 + 2 = 4 ?  Should we deconstruct the white supremacy inherent in the western conception of "the order of operations?'

LOL... you are such a partisan joke.  You embody the typical "progressive."  You read only what confirms your existing (and errant) views.  It's like you have no awareness of what is actually happening in the real world.

 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Ipod Touch

[Calm]

50 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I think what annoys many people about "Systematic racism" is that so many people think  adopting some sort of European style safety net is the only way to fight it.  Unfortunately European countries with those types of safety net still seam to have a good deal of "systematic racism." As anyone who has spent time in those countries can tell you.

So reject a problem exists because you don’t like the solution that has been offered so far rather accept the problem as significant and then work to find a better solution?  Sounds highly counterproductive. 

[The Nehor]

I need to make a broad correction. The study of subconscious racism is not truly a part of CRT. It is often used as a tool in looking for what causes institutional racism but it is at best only partially a part of CRT. CRT involves the intersection of race and law (and the justice system). For what CRT actually covers see here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory#1990s

I blame wandering off into other elements of attempting to mitigate racism on extreme tiredness and the endless insane tangents. I apologize for being misleading.

Also if you wish to learn about Neo-Marxism as it actually exists and not as a generic phrase for ‘bad thing’ see here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Marxism