Covid cases, hospitalizations, death trends and other touchy subjects…

[Tacenda]

11 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yes, I am going to deny that.

Fauci never said that masks don't work - you are thinking of the US Attorney General.  He did however recommend that the general public not use them (there were literally 5 cases in the entire US at the time), because people were in a hording mentality and were making N95's scarce for hospital workers.  

This was my take also but made me a little frustrated with Fauci, because he could have said using something is better than nothing, even I, a nobody thought we could use like a bandanna at the beginning, wasn't even thinking homemade masks. But I'm sure it's a huge regret in his life.

[Bernard Gui]

42 minutes ago, Chum said:

I'm sorry it found him. I am also glad for the impact reduction that the vaccine provided.

Thanks for the sentiment. I'm glad too.

He is an uber-health conscience Brazilian jiujitsu fellow who is not at great risk for fatal infection. That last sentence is somewhat gratuitous, no?

Edited September 8, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Chum]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

That last sentence is somewhat gratuitous, no?

No. I'm coming to realize that the overall context needs more consistent representation, if we are going to reduce misunderstandings and mischaracterizations here.

[Chum]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This was my take also but made me a little frustrated with Fauci, because he could have said using something is better than nothing, even I, a nobody thought we could use like a bandanna at the beginning, wasn't even thinking homemade masks. But I'm sure it's a huge regret in his life.

The generalization that Fauci made some screwups but got it right most of the time - this is more useful then generalizations that come across as FAUCI SUCKS followed by WHERE DID I SAY FAUCI SUCKED ALL THE TIME? SHOW ME!

[Bernard Gui]

21 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Seeing as we see eye to eye, its befuddling how it seemed we were not.  Thank you!

Maybe you could check out my list of comments above and help me understand where I have gone wrong? Thanks.

[gurn]

17 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yes, I am going to deny that.

Fauci never said that masks don't work - you are thinking of the US Attorney General.  He did however recommend that the general public not use them (there were literally 5 cases in the entire US at the time), because people were in a hording mentality and were making them scarce for hospital workers.  

Fauci Mar 8th 60 minutes

“There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face.”

While not exactly using the words "they don't work" it seems that it could be interpreted that way.

[Bernard Gui]

9 minutes ago, Chum said:

No. I'm coming to realize that the overall context needs more consistent representation, if we are going to reduce misunderstandings and mischaracterizations here.

Well, I have not been accused of questioning vaccinations (yet🙃), so I was a bit perplexed why you would make that comment. 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

2 minutes ago, gurn said:

Fauci Mar 8th 60 minutes

“There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face.”

While not exactly using the words "they don't work" it seems that it could be interpreted that way.

And this after so many previous outbreaks of infectious diseases and studies about masks, etc. It's part of the confusion that has been generated by our leaders.

[Chum]

2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Well, I have accused of questioning vaccinations (yet🙃), so I was a bit perplexed why you would make that comment. 

It wasn't in response to anything you've said. It's a response to a larger stew we all find ourselves in.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Chum

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Chum said:

Okay. What are some things that didn't start happening until his efforts put them into play?

That said, most of my mRNA nods would go to Katalin Karikó.

Also I can't bring myself to lionize PotUS's, ever - tho I'm inclined to be mindful of how difficult a job it is.

Didn't say anything about lionizing the POTUS. It's like Joseph Smith. There is no way his critics would possibly give him a millimeter of credit. No, I am not equating Joseph with Donald.

[Chum]

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Maybe you could check out my list of comments above and help me understand where I have gone wrong? Thanks.

I agree that @pogi was off in that point (I missed it in that post).

&

I tend to strongly agree with many of his points; I am running with some of them.

[Chum]

5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Didn't say anything about lionizing the POTUS. It's like Joseph Smith. There is no way his critics would possibly give him a millimeter of credit. No, I am not equating Joseph with Donald.

It was a setup. Now I get to expound on how I am repulsed by Americans' tendency to revere the PotUS they don't despise (and rarely hold them accountable). Sucker.

[pogi]

53 minutes ago, gurn said:

While not exactly using the words "they don't work" it seems that it could be interpreted that way.

I don't see how. 

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Chum said:

As the news org that dragged the rest of the US Press into reporting on US Gov's Patriot Act surveillance abuses, they earned some default trust from me.

Yeah, me too. I have subscribed to and read their news feed for quite some time, mostly seeing it as highly partisan and barely usable, but they recently started acting less like partisan hacks and more like an actual news source. 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

So...KN95 or N95, or nothing, right?   Just curious, have you ever worn a proper fitting N95 for more than a couple hours - you know, the kind that leaves a red imprint in your face for several days afterwards and becomes painful to the touch after one use?  You know the kind that doesn't have convenient ear straps but where both straps have to be pulled over your entire head every time you take it off to take a bite of food or get a drink.   Have you considered the political nature of masks and the difficulties of getting people to even wear piece of fabric over their face let alone an N95?  Have you considered the costs?  Would you really, a conservative republican, support the government paying for these, because you have complained in the past that the average joe can't afford to replace them daily?  Do you think getting the government to pay for and "enforce" N95's or KN95's and to "enforce proper mask protocols" would stand a chance in hell with passing in this political climate on masks???  Again, I use the word "futile" here.  It is completely unrealistic.  I sometimes wonder if we live in the same world.  Here in Utah, the state legislators have stripped public health officials of the power to even enforce a 30 day mask mandate without their approval.  Politicians are now playing the position of public health officials, and you think something like that could pass on a national scale???  How do you think your party would respond to that?

If you are anti anything but N95 or KN95, then you are anti-reality - which in effect is anti mask, in a way.  The costs and political impossibility of it is insurmountable.  I live in the real world and try to make the most of imperfect people and imperfect conditions.  Cloth masks were recommended for the common man/woman.  For the not-so-rich.  They have been shown to reduce transmission.  They are better and more realistic than your impossible dream.  

Can you please tell me what is so gosh darned confusing about CDC mask guidelines on how to wear a mask properly?  Contrary to what you say, I have seen the guidelines posted on social media, in the news, on these boards, etc.  It wouldn't surprise me why you don't see them on your social media feeds considering how their algorithms work.  People are people though.  We can't expect perfection.  We can teach as the day is long, but perfection is untenable.  Do you think that masks are still worthwhile if perfect compliance is impossible?  

I don't see your quotes as being friendly towards the cause of masks.  I think you understand that what you are demanding (or nothing at all) It is unreasonable and unrealistic.  Which gives you leverage to make political attacks.  Political posturing is all I see. Nothing realistic and reasonable for the general public to implement right now.   Your demands would require impossible and endless political battles, and is unaffordable for the average Joe - and government (who is funded by the average Joe). 

You never answered these questions:

3 hours ago, pogi said:

You have said several times (I have looked at your history) that unless people follow all the CDC guidelines, masks cause more harm than good.  Let me ask you then, do you think perfection is a realistic goal?  If not, how is this not insurmountable?  How does this not render masks useless? (that seems to be your argument)   You have posted those very CDC guidelines showing how unattainable they are and that "nobody" follows them - not even you.   That leaves little hope.  Very defeatist.  I am surprised you can't see this tone in yourself. 

In summation, your position seems to be perfect compliance with CDC guidelines, and universal use of N95 or K95's, or nothing at all...right?  And there is no political posturing or political ammunition in these demands at all, right?  Create the impossible scenario for the leading party to achieve, so that you can tear them down when they fail or are inconsistent, right?  A common theme in your posts is to take a hard jab at certain political leaders for not following your "perfect world" ideas. 

If I am wrong about all of this, as I assume that you will suggest, then I find it completely mystifying as to how we find ourselves on opposing sides every time masks come up.

Edited September 8, 2021 by pogi

[Chum]

3 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

but they recently started acting less like partisan hacks and more like an actual news source. 

Yeah what the frothy fripp happened to Greenwald? It's like he started mainlining thyroid and gunpowder snowballs.

[gurn]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

Just curious, have you ever worn a proper fitting N95 for more than a couple hours - you know, the kind that leaves a red imprint in your face for several days afterwards and becomes painful to the touch after one use?  

I’ve worn N95’s doing dirty construction work and I would stop going to church if it were required to wear one there.
 

I’ve known my 2 ply cloth mask isn’t very effective, but at least I’m willing to wear it.

I’m vaccinated and socially distance, but realize it is likely just a matter of time before I catch Covid.

I suspect an all or nothing approach to masks wouldn’t be received well by many.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Chum said:

It was a setup. Now I get to expound on how I am repulsed by Americans' tendency to revere the PotUS they don't despise (and rarely hold them accountable). Sucker.

The last POTUS I could stand listening to for longer than 30 seconds was Reagan. Even the ones I voted for I could hardly stand. 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Chum said:

I said @bsjkki's post seems to carry an untrue inference.  An inference conveys a message without explicitly stating it.

After lots and lots of posts, we came to believe it wasn't her intent to convey a Covid-nurturing message. However it wasn't clear at that moment.

Bsjkki has been posting for over a year scientific studies extensively and not just relying on news media to do the work for her plus making comments for months supportive of vaccines, etc.  She also works to understand the nuances of studies and what that means about what we know. It seems very weird to me that you would assume she is anti mask or vaccine or whatever. 
 

And if something isn’t clear, it makes best sense Imo to ask for clarification rather than start to analyze or judge. 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Chum said:

One example is to repeatedly state the ways that masks don't work while usually leaving out how masks do indeed work and save lives.

But in order to understand what studies tell us, one has to look at their weaknesses as well as strengths. This may look the same as the above if one does not take into account a poster’s other comments. 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Chum said:

My posts here, today are careful to not target users. They are focused on where our communication seems to break down.

But you even “@“ bsjkki above so it is hard not to read that as targeting her in my view  

Quote

I said @bsjkki's post seems to carry an untrue inference.  

Maybe it would be helpful for everyone to read their own posts and think “where is this likely to be misread”?

[pogi]

53 minutes ago, gurn said:

I’ve worn N95’s doing dirty construction work and I would stop going to church if it were required to wear one there.
 

I’ve known my 2 ply cloth mask isn’t very effective, but at least I’m willing to wear it.

I’m vaccinated and socially distance, but realize it is likely just a matter of time before I catch Covid.

I suspect an all or nothing approach to masks wouldn’t be received well by many.

That is the real world I am talking about.

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

That wasn't the claim and is a derail.  We can talk about that elsewhere but has nothing to do with masks.   

The claim was that Fauci lied about masks from the beginning causing people to turn up their noses to him. 

But Fauci's reliability has been brought into question here, and I thought this article to be relevant to that, at least.

But as Calm wrote at the head of this thread: "...this thread is for the impulses, rants, and hot topics I keep asking not to be posted.  I am not putting any limits on it save keep to board rules...

So, it isn't a derail. It concerns the subject of the thread, which is broad. Unless you're calling it a subthread derail. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

It seems that vaxxing won't fully work for all people. But because it does seem to keep symptoms from being severe, it's still a good idea.

I have a feeling that we're all going to come down with covid eventually. No matter what we do.

Well to this lay person, it appears that Covid is a rapidly mutating endemic virus that we will all be catching over and over again for the rest of our lives. Hopefully severity will go down with each infection. Thank goodness we have such an amazing vaccine to bring down the mortality and severity of the first infection. 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, rongo said:

contempt, hysteria, and rage against any and all therapeutics on the part of pro-vaxxers/pro-maskers

Can you show me where in the Washington Post article or elsewhere such disdain for monoclonal treatment?  
 

I agree there is less promotion of such, especially in comparison to vaccines, but ignoring is different from contempt and hysteria. 
 

I do see the at times singleminded focus on vaccines as a defensive reaction, likely born of frustration from the resistance to what appears to most as a very easy, safe, very cost effective preventative (not meaning it prevents everything, but that it is taken before infection, not after). In terms of cost-benefit, logically it makes more sense to put effort into safe and easy measures that prevent the problems (overtaxed hospitals, missing work due to illness, etc) rather than treatment of the problem….think of it in terms of car maintenance…cheaper in the long run to do the monthly and yearly maintenance rather than having to fix the damage afterwards it has happened. 
 

There may also be concern, maybe even fear for some that if treatments of the illness are promotes, that too many people will assume that it is less effort not to worry about the future as it can be effectively dealt with if the worst happens and thus skip the vaccine because they envision getting a shot or taking a pill if they get infected and get ill, so no big deal. But the consequences of this choice means higher infection and hospitalization rates even if most infected are minor issues, if any, so there is major pushback against this approach as there should be imo, just as there should be major pushback against behaviours that lead to obesity and diabetes type 2 and lung cancer due to smoking because even though there are effective treatments for all those, it is still much more difficult to deal with an illness once it happens than to prevent it generally speaking.  Plus cures don’t always remove all the damage an illness causes while a person is sick. And ‘cures’ have their own costs as anyone who has been through chemo or had to take insulin shots or even go in a quality diet can testify. 
 

But people aren’t logical and there is also the cost of attention in a world where many things are screaming for our attention all at once. People develop the habit of responding reactively rather than proactively, the squeaky wheel and all.

So imo we need a balanced approach in promoting both preventative measures (vaccines, masking, social distancing, decent hygiene) and treatments to meet the wide variation of human behaviour. I don’t see government taking over the parental role of deciding what to teach and what not to teach as very wise.  Too much likelihood of that backfiring. Trust is best established by openness, honest, and consistent, reliable behaviour.

However, this doesn’t mean in my view experts and leaders need to give equal time to all methods, rather it makes sense to emphasize the preventative as it is most cost effective. I would suggest maybe 80/20 or 90/10 preventative/treatments.  One needs to make sure treatments are spoken of enough that they impinge on people’s awareness, especially doctors. 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Calm