Covid cases, hospitalizations, death trends and other touchy subjects…

[Calm]

Quote

The CDC “vaccine” and “vaccination” definition changes come as vaccinated people continue to beinfected and spread coronavirus

Smac, how does recognizing the limitations of vaccinations due to new knowledge equate to changing the definition of vaccination and vaccine?

[Chum]

37 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I think proper messaging should contain the truth and not what one epidemiologist considered 'unicorn farts.'

Sure.

38 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

So much of the criticism about messaging is inconsistencies or overselling.

Fortunately context isn't either of those things.

41 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I clarified during our discussion over and over what the vaccines have been proven to do. It is what the experts are saying. Early on they focused also on herd immunity but there is a reason they no longer bring it up.

Sure. I think your arguments are persuasive. Your delivery of that info could reasonably be interpreted to say that the onus of a failure to reach herd immunity rested primarily with the vaccines themselves and not unvaccinated people. I disagreed with it.

48 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

You and Pogi seem to take factual studies and make it into an anti mask or anti vaccine position when it is not.

A more accurate portrayal of what I do would be my words. I found some examples your delivery indistinguishable from anti-health propaganda - because that propaganda models itself after your dissemination style.

51 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Lets follow the science as we learn more. Some things we thought were correct or not correct. Some health officials have felt slow walking bad news has been helpful psychologically. I think the truth is, not being up front with 'bad news' is why we are in the position that many don't trust what they are being told. This has had major consequences for people who have vaccine hesitancy because they don't trust 'public health.'

I think this is full of wisdom.

[Chum]

23 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think you should start a new thread to discuss this rather than trying to address it in this thread which has so much baggage of criticisms of posters already in it. 

That seems reasonable.

[juliann]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

So...KN95 or N95, or nothing, right?   Just curious, have you ever worn a proper fitting N95 for more than a couple hours - you know, the kind that leaves a red imprint in your face for several days afterwards and becomes painful to the touch after one use?  You know the kind that doesn't have convenient ear straps but where both straps have to be pulled over your entire head every time you take it off to take a bite of food or get a drink.   Have you considered the political nature of masks and the difficulties of getting people to even wear piece of fabric over their face let alone an N95?  Have you considered the costs?  Would you really, a conservative republican, support the government paying for these, because you have complained in the past that the average joe can't afford to replace them daily?  Do you think getting the government to pay for and "enforce" N95's or KN95's and to "enforce proper mask protocols" would stand a chance in hell with passing in this political climate on masks???  Again, I use the word "futile" here.  It is completely unrealistic.  I sometimes wonder if we live in the same world.  Here in Utah, the state legislators have stripped public health officials of the power to even enforce a 30 day mask mandate without their approval.  Politicians are now playing the position of public health officials, and you think something like that could pass on a national scale???  How do you think your party would respond to that?

If you are anti anything but N95 or KN95, then you are anti-reality - which in effect is anti mask, in a way.  The costs and political impossibility of it is insurmountable.  I live in the real world and try to make the most of imperfect people and imperfect conditions.  Cloth masks were recommended for the common man/woman.  For the not-so-rich.  They have been shown to reduce transmission.  They are better and more realistic than your impossible dream.  

Can you please tell me what is so gosh darned confusing about CDC mask guidelines on how to wear a mask properly?  Contrary to what you say, I have seen the guidelines posted on social media, in the news, on these boards, etc.  It wouldn't surprise me why you don't see them on your social media feeds considering how their algorithms work.  People are people though.  We can't expect perfection.  We can teach as the day is long, but perfection is untenable.  Do you think that masks are still worthwhile if perfect compliance is impossible?  

I don't see your quotes as being friendly towards the cause of masks.  I think you understand that what you are demanding (or nothing at all) It is unreasonable and unrealistic.  Which gives you leverage to make political attacks.  Political posturing is all I see. Nothing realistic and reasonable for the general public to implement right now.   Your demands would require impossible and endless political battles, and is unaffordable for the average Joe - and government (who is funded by the average Joe). 

You never answered these questions:

In summation, your position seems to be perfect compliance with CDC guidelines, and universal use of N95 or K95's, or nothing at all...right?  And there is no political posturing or political ammunition in these demands at all, right?  Create the impossible scenario for the leading party to achieve, so that you can tear them down when they fail or are inconsistent, right?  A common theme in your posts is to take a hard jab at certain political leaders for not following your "perfect world" ideas. 

If I am wrong about all of this, as I assume that you will suggest, then I find it completely mystifying as to how we find ourselves on opposing sides every time masks come up.

Well here is an effective cloth one for ya. It's only $35. 

Supreme Style Face Mask, Fully Adjustable Ear Loop, Neck Strap, 3 Layered, Tested and rated Filtration Effectiveness of 98.8%.

• 100% American- Made in our Los Angeles Factory,

  and shipped direct to you within one business day.

• LA Linen Masks are designed to Protect you from the environment, as well as protecting others. With an incredible 98.8%BFE (Bacterial Filtration Effectiveness) and Delta P of 3.8 Breathability, it is made to keep you Safe and Comfortable during a long period of use.

• Masks are Machine washable and dry. Color Bleach Safe. Pass 110 wash cycle test as per Military guidelines.

• 3  Specialized layer Design for All-Day Comfort and Protection.Outer Layer: Poly/Lycra stretch fabric for a proper tight fit. Middle Layer: Polypropylene/Cotton

  Polymer offering the highest level of filtration. The Inside layer is a cotton blend to keep your skin dry and comfortable, and prevent irritation.
• Generous Size For Excellent Jaw Mobility

  • 9x9 inch pattern Full size mask
  • 7x7 inch pattern Small size mask
• Internal nose wire for a proper fit, and reduce fogging of glasses.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Chum said:

Truman. Also he once knocked my mom on her butt.

🙃 alert. You were around for Truman? You be very old.

End 🙃alert.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[MustardSeed]

3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

You were around for Truman? You be very old.

His mom was.  And Truman only died in the late 70s I think?  Maybe his mom was a toddler and he pushed her over?  

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

There are a lot of uncaring people out there already as one can see by the number of fat jokes Imo.  Recognizing condemnation occurs doesn’t automatically mean one approves of it. You might want to ask Chum if he would be condemning in those cases (they vary from Covid in they are not infectious, so while they may cause harm to others, they rarely cause others to have serious illnesses or die) to that extreme. 

I don’t understand why you are saying.  Sorry to be so dense.

[bsjkki]

50 minutes ago, Chum said:

Sure. I think your arguments are persuasive. Your delivery of that info could reasonably be interpreted to say that the onus of a failure to reach herd immunity rested primarily with the vaccines themselves and not unvaccinated people. I disagreed with it.

I just follow the science. https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pandemic/has-delta-killed-herd-immunity-dream
 

 

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Chum said:

It was a setup. Now I get to expound on how I am repulsed by Americans' tendency to revere the PotUS they don't despise (and rarely hold them accountable). Sucker.

Ouch! Ya got me.

[Bernard Gui]

52 minutes ago, juliann said:

Well here is an effective cloth one for ya. It's only $35. 

Supreme Style Face Mask, Fully Adjustable Ear Loop, Neck Strap, 3 Layered, Tested and rated Filtration Effectiveness of 98.8%.

• 100% American- Made in our Los Angeles Factory,

  and shipped direct to you within one business day.

• LA Linen Masks are designed to Protect you from the environment, as well as protecting others. With an incredible 98.8%BFE (Bacterial Filtration Effectiveness) and Delta P of 3.8 Breathability, it is made to keep you Safe and Comfortable during a long period of use.

• Masks are Machine washable and dry. Color Bleach Safe. Pass 110 wash cycle test as per Military guidelines.

• 3  Specialized layer Design for All-Day Comfort and Protection.Outer Layer: Poly/Lycra stretch fabric for a proper tight fit. Middle Layer: Polypropylene/Cotton

  Polymer offering the highest level of filtration. The Inside layer is a cotton blend to keep your skin dry and comfortable, and prevent irritation.
• Generous Size For Excellent Jaw Mobility

  • 9x9 inch pattern Full size mask
  • 7x7 inch pattern Small size mask
• Internal nose wire for a proper fit, and reduce fogging of glasses.

Read this carefully. 98.8% Bacterial Filtration Effectiveness.

BTW, I believe Pogi’s hyperbolic rant was directed at me, not you.

🙃 alert. I think this mask will scare off all microbes. I’m ordering one as we speak. 100% effectiveness guaranteed. I will not only be safer than the average Joe, I will also be totally stylin’! And best of all, my glasses won’t fog up and it won’t leave ugly red marks on my face! It’s the bee’s knees.

https://www.samuraioriginal.com/products/halloween-namakubi-japanese-tattoo-premium-face-mask?omnisendContactID=60fa8416ab6171580b0c0eae&utm_campaign=automation%3A+Product+Abandonment+Engagement+Split+(+chỉ+vào+trang+xem+sản+phẩm+rồi+ra)+(6138b6bdba11e7001db81326)&utm_content=610910591b1c43001db6617b&utm_medium=email&utm_source=omnisend

End 🙃 alert.
 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[SeekingUnderstanding]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

So much public misinformation is created by popular entertainers. I love Jimmy Kimmel's solution for opening up hospital beds which was cheered by the audience.

Quote

Jimmy Kimmel returned from his summer hiatus Tuesday, sharing his blunt thoughts on those who've chosen not to get the coronavirus vaccine. In his opening monologue, the comedian said unvaccinated people should not take up ICU beds in hospitals. Kimmel then noted that it wasn't a very happy Labor Day weekend as coronavirus cases are up 300% from a year ago. 

"Dr. Fauci said if hospitals get any more crowded they're going to have to make some very tough choices about who gets an ICU bed," Kimmel said. "That choice doesn't seem so tough to me," he continued. "Vaccinated person having a heart attack? Yes, come right on in, we'll take care of you. Unvaccinated guy who gobbled horse goo? Rest in peace, wheezy." https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/jimmy-kimmel-says-unvaccinated-people-shouldn-t-get-icu-beds-in-hospitals/ar-AAOe7Tx?li=BBnb2gh

🙃 alert.  That is really, really funny! People dying is always a hoot. Especially when their death is payback from their own foolish actions. 

Let's play that out to its logical conclusion.

Overweight people who contract the virus and go to the hospital. Smokers who are dying of lung cancer. Diabetics who don't control sugar levels. Drivers who drink and drive or don't wear seat belts. Tweakers who just be tweakers. Pedestrians who do not look both ways when crossing the street. Motorcyclists who don't wear helmets. Folks who get AIDS. Swimmers who ignore the riptide warnings. Gourmands who eat fugu. Junkies who shoot up with used needles. Kids who play with fire. The list is endless. So many beds could be freed up! 

Rest in peace, all you fools! 

QED

End 🙃 alert.

 

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

If there was a free, safe, and effective two shot solution to these problems, then yes you would see people similarly condemn those that suffer from those afflictions. 

 

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Seriously? That is anti-Hippocratic Oath. Not to mention uncharitable, uncaring, and unChristian. Even in wartime scrupulous doctors try to save the lives of enemy soldiers. Then folks who didn't get vaccine would not be the equivalent of enemy soldiers, they would be worse.

Did Jimmie Kimmel swear a Hippocratic Oath not to mock people who make stupid choices? Obviously doctors will treat everyone they can regardless of the choices they make prior to walking in the door. You however make a false equivalency between people who choose not to get two free shots that are highly effective and have next to zero side effects and people who are overweight. People who study the matter have found that one's weight is as genetically linked as one's intelligence. There is no easy cure to obesity - that would require a society wide shift in diet (I have no respect for people that shame the overweight). 

 

Now in a counterfactual world, where there was a two shot cure for obesity that had no side effects and our hospitals were overrun with those suffering from the side effects of obesity? Yes in that counterfactual world I think it would be appropriate for a comedian to make fun of those people that were burdening the rest of us because they have decided their neighbors are better sources for medical information than our health institutions. 

[juliann]

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

BTW, I believe Pogi’s hyperbolic rant was directed at me, not you.

 

We seem to be indistinguishable at this point. 

(That mask is the top recommended cloth mask by ConsumerLab.)

[Bernard Gui]

38 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

His mom was.  And Truman only died in the late 70s I think?  Maybe his mom was a toddler and he pushed her over?  

Oh spit! I forgot the 🙃alert. I fixed it.

🙃 alert.

Truman was da bomb. Literally. I was in elementary school when Eisenhower was elected. I liked Ike. I be old.

End 🙃 alert.

[Bernard Gui]

26 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Did Jimmie Kimmel swear a Hippocratic Oath not to mock people who make stupid choices? Obviously doctors will treat everyone they can regardless of the choices they make prior to walking in the door. You however make a false equivalency between people who choose not to get two free shots that are highly effective and have next to zero side effects and people who are overweight. People who study the matter have found that one's weight is as genetically linked as one's intelligence. There is no easy cure to obesity - that would require a society wide shift in diet (I have no respect for people that shame the overweight). 

Now in a counterfactual world, where there was a two shot cure for obesity that had no side effects and our hospitals were overrun with those suffering from the side effects of obesity? Yes in that counterfactual world I think it would be appropriate for a comedian to make fun of those people that were burdening the rest of us because they have decided their neighbors are better sources for medical information than our health institutions. 

🙃 alert.

C’mon, man!

If a flaming Right Wing troglodyte knuckle-dragging puppy-kicking meat-eating comedian Trumpista said that about *fill in the blank* you would be all over her like scales on a pangolin. Johnny Carson was a classy gentleman when  he poked fun. Kimmel is one of the many pathetic wannabes who have lost their way. This mal infant comment is exhibit A. It has no defense.
End 🙃 alert. 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

23 minutes ago, juliann said:

We seem to be indistinguishable at this point. 

(That mask is the top recommended cloth mask by ConsumerLab.)

Yes. Seems like old times  

🙃 My cloth mask has a pocket for a filter or a napkin. It is ninja recommended. 🙃

Edited September 9, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[pogi]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Further to our discussion of how medical terminology is used, see here (from an article discussing the CDC's definition of terms) :

Further commentary here:

Input, Pogi?

Thanks,

-Smac

What do I think?  I think I lose more respect for you with every political conspiracy article that you post on here.

I would suggest that the updated version of a dumbed down definition of complex sciences and processes (immunology and vaccinology), which explanations require entire text books to properly define and explain, and to condense that all down into a single sentence using layman's terms - I would suggest that the updated version is an improvement which more closely aligns with the complex processes as explained in the CDC Pinkbook - especially considering the hyper attention to the subject at present.  What do you think?   (yes, I know that is a long run-on sentence.  I am too lazy to fix it). 

I think the author of your article is an idiot and grasping at straws.  What do you think?  (yes, I know, I will be ridiculed and judged as a - fill in the ______ - for saying this.  But there will be no mention or condemnation of the idiot in the article and the toxic waste he is polluting the world with.) 

From your article:

Quote

So in a week, a vaccine went from being something that “produces immunity to a specific disease” to something that merely “stimulates the body’s immune response against diseases,” and a vaccination no longer “produces immunity” to a disease, just “protection” from a disease.

Immunology and vaccinology has always more closely resembled the latter attempt at this layman's definition of these terms.  Nothing has changed in terms of our understanding of vaccines and immunity from a practitioner standpoint, all that has changed is that these definitions have improved for the lay public.   Of course, someone is going to make a conspiracy theory out of this and blame it on Biden!  

Long before Covid even existed, I have been administering vaccines and educating people about them so that they can give "informed consent".  I have read and thoroughly studied the entire pinkbook and every new version that comes out.  Nothing has changed in regards to our understanding of vaccinology and immunology since this definition update.  Immunology is extremely complex and I would suggest the new definition is far from perfect too.  They have to make sacrifices in an attempt to simplify things for the general public, and these simple definitions will never capture a comprehensive understanding of the processes.   

Take typhoid, for example.  I always educate people that it is only between around 60%-80% effective at preventing infection and that people therefore need to be vigilant with what they eat for added protection (kind of like with masks and covid, no?)  I also educate them that the vaccine can give "protection" from severe disease if they do become infected after vaccination (kind of like with covid, no?).  I also tell them that it will only give them 2 years of immunity and that they will need a booster dose for the rest of their life if they have continued exposure (kind of like with covid, no?).  So, no, nothing has changed.  Same is true with annual influenza vaccines - they don't always give perfect immunity but can reduce severity of disease, and require frequent boosters.  No change.  Other vaccines are extremely effective (none are perfect) and don't require boosters.  But how should we capture all that (which is a minuscule portion of vaccinology) in a one sentence definition of what "vaccines" are for the general public to understand?  Hmmm....

From your article:  

Quote

 

Does anyone else find this disturbing? Why did the CDC suddenly redefine “vaccine” and “vaccination” to make them sound similar to your basic non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug or a prescription drug you have to keep taking regularly?

No explanation for the change is given.

Is this part of the Biden administration’s efforts to make the public accept regular COVID-19 boosters by changing how we understand the purpose of vaccines?

 

No, I don't find it disturbing.  What do you think smac?

No conspiracy.  What do you think?

Just an effort to clarify a complex process.  What do you think smac?

What do I really think though???   I think I need some time away from all of this.  

Peace out y'all,  This is all too much. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by pogi

[Bernard Gui]

duplicate

old habits die hard

Edited September 9, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[bsjkki]

Here is some good news.https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/09/07/1033677208/new-studies-find-evidence-of-superhuman-immunity-to-covid-19-in-some-individuals

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

I don’t understand why you are saying.  Sorry to be so dense.

There was a possibility that Chum was making an observation about others’ likely behaviour.

 

added:  I was an idiot, substituted Chum for Seeking, my apologies for being confusing. 

and added:  Seeking explained his position himself. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

Take typhoid, for example.  I always educate people that it is only between around 60%-80% effective at preventing infection and that people therefore need to be vigilant with what they eat for added protection (kind of like with masks and covid, no?)  I also educate them that the vaccine can give "protection" from severe disease if they do become infected after vaccination (kind of like with covid, no?).  I also tell them that it will only give them 2 years of immunity and that they will need a booster dose for the rest of their life if they have continued exposure (kind of like with covid, no?).

Giving due diligence to your audience is really commendable. The same kind of attention to detail would be beneficial when folks are told to mask up. That’s not asking too much. For example, require plain English instructions for correct use on all mask packaging. Easy Peasy.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[SeekingUnderstanding]

14 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

🙃 alert.

C’mon, man!

If a flaming Right Wing troglodyte knuckle-dragging puppy-kicking meat-eating comedian Trumpista said that about *fill in the blank* you would be all over her like scales on a pangolin. Johnny Carson was a classy gentleman when  he poked fun. Kimmel is one of the many pathetic wannabes who have lost their way. This mal infant comment is exhibit A. It has no defense.
End 🙃 alert. 

 

 

People making stupid choices is one thing that seems to cross party lines, so you might be surprised. The ultra liberal non-meat eaters historically have been as anti-vax as any right wing group.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

I just follow the science. https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pandemic/has-delta-killed-herd-immunity-dream
 

 

I think this article explains the issue well, though I would like to see the math/model of how Flahault comes to this conclusion out of curiosity/for self education as well as seeing if other experts find the model credible. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

10 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Here is some good news.https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/09/07/1033677208/new-studies-find-evidence-of-superhuman-immunity-to-covid-19-in-some-individuals

To clarify, does “hybrid immunity” mean folks who have survived COVID and get the vaccine?

[Bernard Gui]

6 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

People making stupid choices is one thing that seems to cross party lines, so you might be surprised. The ultra liberal non-meat eaters historically have been as anti-vax as any right wing group.

So you stand with Kimmel?

Edited September 9, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[bsjkki]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

To clarify, does “hybrid immunity” mean folks who have survived COVID and get the vaccine?

Yes. The article also says this. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by bsjkki