A science-based reason to avoid caffeine habituation

[Chum]

9 minutes ago, pogi said:

I almost spit out a banana

At least you were eating one when that happened.

[Chum]

On 7/19/2021 at 12:30 AM, Calm said:

“It is always projection”

So true it's nearly physics.

[The Nehor]

15 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Perhaps they are, in moderation, to most people. But there's no such thing as a coffee or tea deficiency. Or for that matter, caffeine deficiency.

Although I have found that caffeine helps me control my ADD.

It is a stimulant which actually has a calming and controlling effect on those with ADD within certain dosages.

There are times I wonder if drinking coffee might have measurably improved my ability to function but…oh well.

11 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

A long time ago, I would add about two teaspoons of sugar to a large mug of hot chocolate. Over time, I decided I liked my hot chocolate less sweet, so I cut back to 1 teaspoon and eventually about 1/2 teaspoon. One day, I went to make a hot chocolate, and I realised I was out of sugar. I knew I wouldn't like it, but I decided to make one without. (I just use non-fat milk powder and cocoa powder.)

I've never gone back. I don't know why we decided that cocoa requires sugar. The Aztecs and Mayans didn't sweeten it. There is already plenty of sugar in milk. The end result is basically a savoury hot chocolate. I love it.

So my adding Blue Bell Ice Cream and caramel topping to my cocoa is probably excessive?

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Chum said:

So true. I've been kind of cheering on the blight that's wiping them out.

So why are Cavendish the only variety available in US?  Guessing is they were bred for storage/transportation?  The others are more delicate and require faster or specialized handling?  
 

I am surprised with the variety of fruit we are getting now that it is limited still so much if the taste is that different. 

[Stargazer]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So my adding Blue Bell Ice Cream and caramel topping to my cocoa is probably excessive?

How can you say such a thing?

That actually sounds like a lovely combo. I shall have to try it.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Stargazer

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

How can you say such a thing?

That actually sounds like a lovely combo. I shall have to try it.

I call it a diabetes shake. It is best hot with the ice cream melted into it. You also have add the caramel last and stir or mix it quick or the caramel collects at the bottom. Drink slowly in sips. It is very very sweet. I find it best with white chocolate powder.

[Chum]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

So why are Cavendish the only variety available in US?  Guessing is they were bred for storage/transportation?

My understanding is the milquetoasty Cavendish generated the highest profit ratio, so that was the ~only choice we were given.

[Chum]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

I am surprised with the variety of fruit we are getting now that it is limited still so much if the taste is that different. 

Not to mention the ever decreasing nutrition.  Apples have been a bright spot tho, thanks to the celebrity generated by Honeycrisp.

[Chum]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is a stimulant which actually has a calming and controlling effect on those with ADD within certain dosages.

NOS and Adderall was my fav breakfast for a while. It certainly livened up early BNI meetings.

In our home we've decided that caffeine is a mood enhancer. We still let Rx stims do the heavy lifting tho.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Chum said:

Not to mention the ever decreasing nutrition.  Apples have been a bright spot tho, thanks to the celebrity generated by Honeycrisp.

Those things are heaven in your mouth.

[The Nehor]

58 minutes ago, Chum said:

NOS and Adderall was my fav breakfast for a while. It certainly livened up early BNI meetings.

In our home we've decided that caffeine is a mood enhancer. We still let Rx stims do the heavy lifting tho.

I just can’t talk ideally for about an hour after taking meds or I risk sounding like a coke fiend. My friend told me I sounded like this guy a Salarian scientist trying to talk his way through a problem except less coherent. If you got that reference you are a nerd.

[Meadowchik]

On 7/21/2021 at 8:09 PM, Stargazer said:

I guess it might be horrible if one were obsessive about it. I haven't drank coffee or tea since I was baptized (that would be 55 years ago come July 30). Hasn't caused me any agony in all that time. Nor has not having gotten hooked on tobacco like my father (who died at age 46 largely because of his smoking) been agonizing. One puff on a pipe at age 8 (7 years before I was baptized) was enough to convince me that smokers had a screw loose. And there's been no agony with alcohol, either. The only "agony" in not drinking alcohol has come from bullies trying to shame me into drinking with them. Don't need it, don't want it, and it hasn't hurt me in the slightest not to partake of it. I've been annoyed by plenty of drunks, however. 

 

I was more than happy to abstain from coffee and tea as part of my covenants. But after I left and then tried them, it was a bit bitter accepting the real suffering I experienced being chronically sleep deprived as a young mother, when they might have helped. Even one additional hour of alertness on those days--about 4000 of them--could have vastly improved my life. Those were hard times.

[Meadowchik]

When our youngest were about five, I was finally getting consistent nights of sleep I needed. Our oldest was sixteen. I noticed a strange change, like I was waking up after a long, long sleep. I had energy again. I could think much more clearly after years of mental fuzz.

[Chum]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If you got that reference you are a nerd.

Never read it and yet my nerdom persists.

[bOObOO]

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I just can’t talk ideally for about an hour after taking meds or I risk sounding like a coke fiend. My friend told me I sounded like this guy a Salarian scientist trying to talk his way through a problem except less coherent. If you got that reference you are a nerd.

A nerd who likes things like this:

...which I do not, or not very much.

[BlueDreams]

On 7/23/2021 at 6:17 AM, Meadowchik said:

When our youngest were about five, I was finally getting consistent nights of sleep I needed. Our oldest was sixteen. I noticed a strange change, like I was waking up after a long, long sleep. I had energy again. I could think much more clearly after years of mental fuzz.

If it’s any consolation, it only slightly takes an edge off. The mental fuzz, particularly on bad sleep days, persists. Mate cocido is between tea and coffee in amount of caffeine. And I’ve definitely had it during my daughter’s first 2 years of life to stay more awake. But that’s about as much as it did for me: I stayed awake. it’s like catching a river with a bathtub in terms of helping with chronic sleep deprivation. Other things do it better….excercise, a nap….okay actually sleep does it best 😅

I don’t run well without sleep. Some people can keep going like that with few noticeable effects minus the bags and lethargy. I don’t, I start deteriorating quickly. So i just found tricks to sleep more. Careful Bed sharing saved me the first year…I wasn’t really tired from sleep deprivation much during then. When it became obvious she needed to get out of our bed that’s when it really started kicking in. But it became clear to my husband and me that I couldn’t handle it long term. So he took over most night duties. From time to time it catches up with him and I try to take over for a night or two. I definitely remember how potent the switch over was for my mental stamina.
 

And that’s what’s keeping my mind more alert. not my cocido, as much as I love that drink. 

 

with luv, 

BD 

Edited July 26, 2021 by BlueDreams

[Scott Lloyd]

Some posts on this thread have reminded me of this passage from Section 88 of the Doctrine and Covenants:

118 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.
119 Organize yourselves; prepare every needful thing; and establish a house, even a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of learning, a house of glory, a house of order, a house of God;
120 That your incomings may be in the name of the Lord; that your outgoings may be in the name of the Lord; that all your salutations may be in the name of the Lord, with uplifted hands unto the Most High.
121 Therefore, cease from all your light speeches, from all laughter, from all your lustful desires, from all your pride and light-mindedness, and from all your wicked doings.
122 Appoint among yourselves a teacher, and let not all be spokesmen at once; but let one speak at a time and let all listen unto his sayings, that when all have spoken that all may be edified of all, and that every man may have an equal privilege.
123 See that ye love one another; cease to be covetous; learn to impart one to another as the gospel requires.
124 Cease to be idle; cease to be unclean; cease to find fault one with another; cease to sleep longer than is needful; retire to thy bed early, that ye may not be weary; arise early, that your bodies and your minds may be invigorated.

 

These verses are so consistent in spirit with the Word of Wisdom (note the two occurrences of the phrase “words of wisdom” in verse 118 above), that I have reflected in the past that it is not mere happenstance that the passage is arranged in such close proximity to Section 89, the Word of Wisdom section. 
 

Perhaps the Lord has inspired His prophets to teach such stringent prohibition of the pervasive drinks that contain harmful, habit-forming stimulants because He doesn’t want His people trapped into using them as a poor substitute for what we ought to be doing, which, consistent with the above, includes:

— getting adequate (but not excessive) sleep. 
— engaging in prudent and proper management of time, resources, relationships and environs; arranging our schedules so all needful things can be accomplished in a reasonable length of time with minimal stress (and no need for chemical stimulation). 
— avoidance of being overworked (we are counseled elsewhere to not run faster than we have strength). 
— imparting “one to another as the gospel requires,” including bearing one another’s burdens when necessary. 
 

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Some posts on this thread have reminded me of this passage from Section 88 of the Doctrine and Covenants:

118 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.
119 Organize yourselves; prepare every needful thing; and establish a house, even a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of learning, a house of glory, a house of order, a house of God;
120 That your incomings may be in the name of the Lord; that your outgoings may be in the name of the Lord; that all your salutations may be in the name of the Lord, with uplifted hands unto the Most High.
121 Therefore, cease from all your light speeches, from all laughter, from all your lustful desires, from all your pride and light-mindedness, and from all your wicked doings.
122 Appoint among yourselves a teacher, and let not all be spokesmen at once; but let one speak at a time and let all listen unto his sayings, that when all have spoken that all may be edified of all, and that every man may have an equal privilege.
123 See that ye love one another; cease to be covetous; learn to impart one to another as the gospel requires.
124 Cease to be idle; cease to be unclean; cease to find fault one with another; cease to sleep longer than is needful; retire to thy bed early, that ye may not be weary; arise early, that your bodies and your minds may be invigorated.

 

These verses are so consistent in spirit with the Word of Wisdom (note the two occurrences of the phrase “words of wisdom” in verse 118 above), that I have reflected in the past that it is not mere happenstance that the passage is arranged in such close proximity to Section 89, the Word of Wisdom section. 
 

Perhaps the Lord has inspired His prophets to teach such stringent prohibition of the pervasive drinks that contain harmful, habit-forming stimulants because He doesn’t want His people trapped into using them as a poor substitute for what we ought to be doing, which, consistent with the above, includes:

— getting adequate (but not excessive) sleep. 
— engaging in prudent and proper management of time, resources, relationships and environs; arranging our schedules so all needful things can be accomplished in a reasonable length of time with minimal stress (and no need for chemical stimulation). 
— avoidance of being overworked (we are counseled elsewhere to not run faster than we have strength). 
— imparting “one to another as the gospel requires,” including bearing one another’s burdens when necessary. 
 

 

To be clear, I'm not much of an all or nothing thinker on this. Just as it doesn't make much of a difference to chronic fatigue to take caffeine, I'm literally right now sitting to a drink of caffeinated herbal tea to steer a headache/mild tiredness away so I can do a session in 20 minutes. All the planning and implemented self-care in the world will not remove the fact that parenting youngins is exhausting and our society is not set up for more communal care of children. So no matter how good you balance things, you'll still often end up exhausted in the morning after crap sleep. Or end up tired early  for no good reason (as I've done today). Those days I don't think there's something wrong to find a pick-me-up to make it through one's obligations.

 

With luv,

BD

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by BlueDreams

[Calm]

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

Or end up tired early  for no good reason (as I've done today).

Air quality is a pretty good reason, wasn’t that great yesterday, today is moderate…enough to prolong the agony imo. 
 

I love thunderstorms for the beauty and the fact they clean out the air, but that is balanced by the fact they also start wildfires dirtying the air and then there is the front, which my mind delights in when it blows through and my brain moans over. 
 

Few gifts are perfect, it seems. 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Calm

[Stargazer]

On 7/21/2021 at 11:33 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

American bananas are yucky! To be honest, all Cavendish bananas are yucky ...

Well, they are not American, or at least North American. But they are doomed. Here's a light-hearted view of the problem:

 

[Stargazer]

On 7/22/2021 at 2:25 PM, Calm said:

So why are Cavendish the only variety available in US?  Guessing is they were bred for storage/transportation?  The others are more delicate and require faster or specialized handling?  
 

I am surprised with the variety of fruit we are getting now that it is limited still so much if the taste is that different. 

It's an economic thing. Millions of tons of them have to be shipped thousands of miles, and the Cavendish was the replacement for the Gros Michel, which was wiped out by a fungus. A new fungus is about to kill all the Cavendish. See the short video in an earlier post.

It's all Chiquita's fault. The United Fruit Company. The term "Banana Republic" was coined over that. That is actually a good reason for the Cavendish to die. It's not going to be easy for the farmers in Central America, though.

[Stargazer]

On 7/21/2021 at 11:33 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

American bananas are yucky! To be honest, all Cavendish bananas are yucky ...

That might be because of what you're used to. I happen to like Cavendish -- and my wife gets cranky if she can't get her daily banana fix. I am old enough to remember the Cavendish's predecessor, the Gros Michel, which is reputed to be better-tasting. I'm sure I ate GM's, but I don't really remember them enough for a comparison.

This "taste" thing is very subjective. Ever eat American-made sauerkraut? The supermarket canned variety? It's horrible. The best sauerkraut is made in Germany and Poland. I can eat that right out of the jar; but usually fry it up with bratwurst and boiled potatoes. And peppercorns, juniper berries, and caraway seeds. Yumm!

[Meadowchik]

19 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

If it’s any consolation, it only slightly takes an edge off. The mental fuzz, particularly on bad sleep days, persists. Mate cocido is between tea and coffee in amount of caffeine. And I’ve definitely had it during my daughter’s first 2 years of life to stay more awake. But that’s about as much as it did for me: I stayed awake. it’s like catching a river with a bathtub in terms of helping with chronic sleep deprivation. Other things do it better….excercise, a nap….okay actually sleep does it best 😅

I don’t run well without sleep. Some people can keep going like that with few noticeable effects minus the bags and lethargy. I don’t, I start deteriorating quickly. So i just found tricks to sleep more. Careful Bed sharing saved me the first year…I wasn’t really tired from sleep deprivation much during then. When it became obvious she needed to get out of our bed that’s when it really started kicking in. But it became clear to my husband and me that I couldn’t handle it long term. So he took over most night duties. From time to time it catches up with him and I try to take over for a night or two. I definitely remember how potent the switch over was for my mental stamina.
 

And that’s what’s keeping my mind more alert. not my cocido, as much as I love that drink. 

 

with luv, 

BD 

Five children in six years and two more four years later...sleep deprivation is inevitable.

11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Some posts on this thread have reminded me of this passage from Section 88 of the Doctrine and Covenants:

118 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.
119 Organize yourselves; prepare every needful thing; and establish a house, even a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of learning, a house of glory, a house of order, a house of God;
120 That your incomings may be in the name of the Lord; that your outgoings may be in the name of the Lord; that all your salutations may be in the name of the Lord, with uplifted hands unto the Most High.
121 Therefore, cease from all your light speeches, from all laughter, from all your lustful desires, from all your pride and light-mindedness, and from all your wicked doings.
122 Appoint among yourselves a teacher, and let not all be spokesmen at once; but let one speak at a time and let all listen unto his sayings, that when all have spoken that all may be edified of all, and that every man may have an equal privilege.
123 See that ye love one another; cease to be covetous; learn to impart one to another as the gospel requires.
124 Cease to be idle; cease to be unclean; cease to find fault one with another; cease to sleep longer than is needful; retire to thy bed early, that ye may not be weary; arise early, that your bodies and your minds may be invigorated.

 

These verses are so consistent in spirit with the Word of Wisdom (note the two occurrences of the phrase “words of wisdom” in verse 118 above), that I have reflected in the past that it is not mere happenstance that the passage is arranged in such close proximity to Section 89, the Word of Wisdom section. 
 

Perhaps the Lord has inspired His prophets to teach such stringent prohibition of the pervasive drinks that contain harmful, habit-forming stimulants because He doesn’t want His people trapped into using them as a poor substitute for what we ought to be doing, which, consistent with the above, includes:

— getting adequate (but not excessive) sleep. 
— engaging in prudent and proper management of time, resources, relationships and environs; arranging our schedules so all needful things can be accomplished in a reasonable length of time with minimal stress (and no need for chemical stimulation). 
— avoidance of being overworked (we are counseled elsewhere to not run faster than we have strength). 
— imparting “one to another as the gospel requires,” including bearing one another’s burdens when necessary. 
 

 

You remind me that some people have no idea of what that is like.

[Meadowchik]

10 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

To be clear, I'm not much of an all or nothing thinker on this. Just as it doesn't make much of a difference to chronic fatigue to take caffeine, I'm literally right now sitting to a drink of caffeinated herbal tea to steer a headache/mild tiredness away so I can do a session in 20 minutes. All the planning and implemented self-care in the world will not remove the fact that parenting youngins is exhausting and our society is not set up for more communal care of children. So no matter how good you balance things, you'll still often end up exhausted in the morning after crap sleep. Or end up tired early  for no good reason (as I've done today). Those days I don't think there's something wrong to find a pick-me-up to make it through one's obligations.

 

With luv,

BD

 

It does help, even the ritual of sitting with a mug of hot liquid and sipping, alone or with someone else socialising, can be comforting and then energising in itself.

[Navidad]

It is pretty interesting and moderately entertaining to read this thread as a non-member. I don't mean the moderately entertaining part to be offensive. I find it entertaining because it reminds me so much of the convolutions that Mennonites go through to justify or explain the cultural prohibitions in our faith that assumed theological proportions over time. Most of them have gone away since the 1950s. Some that come to mind are the prohibitions against dancing (we don't allow premarital sex because it leads to dancing), no movie theaters, no face card playing (but we are vicious Rook players, cheating as regularly as possible), no television, especially on Sunday (until your father discovers I've Got a Secret and What's My Line? on Sunday night after evening service) - then sitting around the TV with mac n cheese and stewed tomatoes becomes "family time,"  no tobacco in any form (except cigars for those farmers who grew Connecticut shade tobacco for cigar wrappers), men and women sitting on opposite sides of the church service, no instruments in worship services (we invented the acapella genre of singing before it was popular), no make-up (on women) or jewelry, prayer coverings for ladies, no alcohol except for the occasional beer behind the barn, etc etc. The one that stuck with me was the one about playing face cards or gambling. Although I must admit (please keep it confidential) that about thirty years ago I once put a quarter in a slot machine at a gas station in Hawthorne, NV. I figured there couldn't possibly be a Mennonite anywhere near Hawthorne. The thing  started clinging and clanging and I think I won $10. After that one episode I thought that maybe there was something to this gambling thing! Ha!

I drink coffee on occasion. My wife drinks it more regularly. I sense zero addiction to it. I have a cup of hot tea most mornings. I enjoy that but don't feel any compulsion about it. I do regularly drink Dr. Pepper - always diet. We really don't consciously use any sugar as an additive to anything and don't drink any sugared drinks. We live in a real beer culture here in Mexico. No temptation for me - I really don't like it. The tug-of-war in my heritage between cultural prohibitions and scriptural/theological ones has always been an interesting phenomenon. Here in Mexico we still have Mennonites without electricity, certain modes of transportation, and lots of dress restrictions. I remember some restrictions on cars as a child - but that was mostly among the River Brethren - a non-Mennonite group that the Whitmer family also helped found prior to their Mormon ventures.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Navidad
typos and clarification