'A message from the gay community performed by the san francisco gay mens chorus'

[Calm]

The message intended I am guessing (‘future societies made up of the children of today will be more tolerant and more fair because of what we are  doing and going to do and let’s celebrate that’) is likely  to be lost where it is most needed by their choice to inject humor (again speculating) by using a phrase used in attempts to increase fear towards their community in the past (coming for your child).

Maybe the song was seen as similar to taking a term used as a slur against you and making it your own like a ‘sticks and stones’ challenge.

Unfortunately humor doesn’t always cross paradigms too well. I assume it has been taken down/made private because they realized this. The message would get lost and instead the song would be used as evidence being fearful was the appropriate response. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Calm

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Bob Crockett said:

The problem with smac's post is that he assumes that my gay employees subscribe to this garbage.  It looks like garbage exploited by the right wing.

 

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I do not.

The "right wing" isn't producing this stuff.

Thanks,

-Smac

Oh, come on @smac97!  Surely, @Bob Crockett knows what you think better than you do!  You simply need to cooperate with his efforts to shove you into his preferred political/ideological pigeonhole so that, once you are shoved there, he has a good excuse to ignore you!    (Don't worry: You're in good company.  He does that a lot, including having done it to Your Humble Correspondent.)

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I think they are attempting to provoke fear.  Anger.  Resentment.  That much seems pretty obvious.

That said, I'm wondering if there is perhaps also a hiding-in-plain-sight component.

Thanks,

-Smac

They aren’t attempting to provoke it. They are channeling it.

Hiding in plain sight? That is not what that means. People have gone so nutzoid hunting for hidden agendas and secret cabals and trying to tie everything to communism or godlessness or the current evil of the flavor month that no one actually stops to listen to the plain text. A Book of Mormon warning about the Jewish culture Lehi and his family fled comes to mind. If they applied this level of scrutiny to everyone I would just say they are insane and move on but they don’t.

It is really not that hard to figure out what people want. Even liars tell you what they want every day.

Edit: At to your hand-wringing that is exactly what they intended. It is meant as a joke. They are dressing up their real objectives in the scary language many use to vilify them except their objective is more wholesome and less vile than what their enemies chuck at them. They have a good laugh. Their enemies go into hysterics since the gay agenda is using their scary vocabulary. Then they get out their pocket decoders and try to find out what their secret plan is this time. Marrying forklifts? Fluoridating the water? Enslaving all straight people and bringing about 1,000 years of gay darkness?

Edited July 8, 2021 by The Nehor

[california boy]

20 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Ok. You may be right.  I don’t like the tactic much either because it seems to promote an anti-parental stance that I don’t agree with. 

But as far as the actual song goes, can you point to lyrics describing what they want to convert children to that you believe are problematic?

It isn't really anti-parenting.  The song is saying that no matter how much churches and parents try to teach fear and condemnation against the LGBT community, love and knowing gay people will counter those teachings and ultimately overcome those misguided teachings.  And that is exactly what is happening.  How many hearts and minds have been changed when people know employees, relatives, working colleagues, sons, daughters and friends. They discover all the right wing and religious efforts to portray fear and hate against LGBT community is just plain wrong and has no basis.

The Church found out for itself the more they try to marginalized those that are gay by banning there underaged children from being baptized and calling gay parents apostates, no longer works.  Many people ended up walking away from the Church rather than uphold those beliefs.  The younger generation are even more adamant about not belonging to such an organization.  And they are no longer willing to embrace parents teachings that reinforce that kind of stuff.

In the back of my mind, I wonder if these recent surveys that show a significant uptick in those that identify as LGBT (whatever that number actually is) is perhaps the younger generation saying to those taking the poll, we know what you are doing and today we are all LGBT.Kind of like Kennedy saying  "Ich bin ein Berliner! "

[Kenngo1969]

3 minutes ago, california boy said:

... Kind of like Kennedy saying  "Ich bin ein Berliner! "

That's right.  President Kennedy did say, "I am a jelly doughnut!"

What?

Oh. 

Sorry.

Don't mind me!  Carry on!

[california boy]

33 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Dress up an agenda as tolerance and fairness, and anyone who disagrees with it is now a hateful bigot. Easy. And from a historical perspective, very, very effective.

The goal here is clearly to neutralise the possibility of reasoned, informed or good-faith opposition. We are already seeing elements of that dynamic playing out within this very thread.

It is more than tolerance and fairness.  It is the idea, strange idea to some I know, that people have a right to live their lives and love who they love.  That is an idea that is really hard to vilify when people see those lives lived out and the love we have for our partners. 

[mgy401]

This is all a distraction from the REAL issue:

Should “Praise to the Man”, “In Our Lovely Deseret”, and “Onward Christian Soldiers” be included in the next edition of the LDS hymnal?

Edited July 8, 2021 by mgy401

[smac97]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Ok. You may be right.  I don’t like the tactic much either because it seems to promote an anti-parental stance that I don’t agree with. 

But as far as the actual song goes, can you point to lyrics describing what they want to convert children to that you believe are problematic?

I guess it's the innuendo.  Adult men singing about coming for other people's children is creepy.  Adult men singing about subverting parents is creepy.

Some quotes from comments on the Facebook posting (UPDATE: This posting is now locked) :

Quote

This is strange and in poor taste. The satire isn’t lost on me but when it comes to kids saying stuff like this is gross and weird.

 

Quote

You guys didnt do yourselves any favors with this one. It's borderline innuendo for the whole pedo thing that most try to avoid.

 

Quote

LEAVE THE CHILDREN ALONE. Grown men saying they are coming for your kids... absolutely disgusting.

 

Quote

I couldn’t watch the whole song because it didn’t feel respectful to me as a parent. If I missed some explanation of them explaining this as satire At the end I didn’t see it.

 

I teach my kids tolerance but I don’t need anyone else trying to force their ideas or thoughts on my children. I don’t need you to convert my children or teach them that’s their parents Job.
...
I would like to think there would be a better way than stirring the pot with this song. You’re basically saying you won’t respect others peoples beliefs and the ways they think. That you will convert their children to fully accept anything you do.

 

Quote

This song is gross! Could not even imagine if straight men made a song like this.

 

Quote

Los mismos que piden tolerancia, se burlan en tu cara y te dicen que van por tus hijos.

{Translation: "The same ones who ask for tolerance, mock your face and tell you that they are going for your children."}

EDIT: Removed incorrect identification of one of the singers.

So yeah.  Innuendo.  A bunch of adult men singing about subverting parents and "coming for your children" is pretty creepy.  

Here's the YouTube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArOQF4kadHA

The video was up and viewable as of a few minutes ago, but appears to be locked down now.  One of the few of the still-visible comments to it:

Quote

Theses are the same people who cried that ''gay conversion therapy'' was a crime against humanity. The irony is flabbergasting.

Yep.

From the YouTube intro:

Quote

“We’ll make them tolerant and fair.” These are the words many have chosen to ignore and even delete from news articles. After decades of children being indoctrinated and taught intolerance for anyone who is “other,” from using the Bible as a weapon to reparative therapy, it’s our turn. We have dedicated ourselves to being role models, teaching, and spreading the message of love, tolerance and celebration through our music.

The negative, even threatening responses, prove that this music and our mission are critically necessary in today’s world. Many children are not being taught the truth. Our message to you from the gay community: we will continue do our best to counter the message of hate by teaching young people to be tolerant and fair.

It is obvious the tongue-in-cheek humor is lost on many - especially the ones spewing death threats. Please take a moment and read the entire text. “We’ll make an ally of you yet.” We are proud of who we are. We are proud of what we sing.

First, I reject any responses that are threatening or hateful.  That is plainly inappropriate.  

Second, these guys do seem to be doubling down.  "Many children are not being taught the truth. Our message to you from the gay community: we will continue do our best to counter the message of hate by teaching young people to be tolerant and fair."  I think there are ways to share your position without overtly and gloatingly bragging about your intention to subvert/undermine parents vis-à-vis their children.

One more screen cap:

In less than a week this vid racked up 7.3 thousand dislikes out of less then 42,000 views.  And only 116 upvotes.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited July 8, 2021 by smac97

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

The Chorus has it posted on its Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/SFGMC/posts/10161169200855744

Thanks,

-Smac

here though, as in not on facebook

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, california boy said:

people have a right to live their lives

But it is getting interpreted in part by their choice of words as ‘you don’t have a right to live the kind of life you want to with your children or to love your children the way you want to  (by teaching what a parent believes will make their children’s lives be better) because what we want for you children will win/is more important’

Talking about someone’s children takes it into their homes and their lives and their loves. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Calm

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

for lewd act with a child under 14.

Edit

 

<redacted out of respect for @Calm>.

 

I will merely point out that our resident attorney has relied on hearsay to slander the good name of two men above. If he worked for me I’d fire him, but I guess not all firms have the same standards:

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by SeekingUnderstanding

[mgy401]

Next up: the Mormon Tabernacle Choir releases a recording of a new song entitled “We Will Teach Your 14-year-old Daughter to Love Joseph Smith“.

[Hamba Tuhan]

17 minutes ago, california boy said:

It is more than tolerance and fairness.

You're not wrong.

27 minutes ago, california boy said:

The younger generation ... are no longer willing to embrace parents teachings that reinforce that kind of stuff.

Exactly! Where do you recommend they go to report their parents for teaching 'that kind of stuff'?

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Phew. At least the kid was a few months shy of their 14th birthday. Latter-day Saints are in the clear to look down on him. 

Really, you went there?

Edited July 8, 2021 by Calm

[smac97]

17 minutes ago, california boy said:

people have a right to live their lives

Apparently that right does not apply to parents vis-à-vis their children.

Thanks,

-Smac

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Just now, Calm said:

Seriously?

Did we really need a 15 image rundown of the guy? Seems excessive to me and totally in bad faith. Ymmv. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

But it is getting interpreted in part by their choice of words as “you don’t have a right to live the kind of life you want to with your children or to love your children the way you want to (by teaching what a parent believes will make their children’s lives be better)”.

I don't think that's an out-there interpretation of the words.

I live in a nation where Christian ministers have already been charged with hate crimes for teaching things that they think will make people's lives better (Muslims are quietly waiting their turn), and last year, our local parliament passed a law essentially making it legally risky for parents to teach their children certain aspects of traditional Christian morality relating to sexuality and gender, potentially punishable by imprisonment.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[Calm]

Bad, bad assumption of mine. Regrets and apologies. I will try and not repeat the carelessness.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Calm

[Duncan]

I don't think those two men are the same. The nose is different, eyebrows are different, one has wavy hair and the other is straight hair, lack of brown spots on the forehead too as opposed to the other man. The name is unusual for sure but there is another ... in California, at least listed on google, but I don't know if he is gay or sings

Edited July 8, 2021 by Duncan

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Just now, Calm said:

I agree that was overkill. Respond to that rather than going somewhere equally inappropriate.

I think it was an appropriate and proportional response. We have no idea what his or his victims story are. No attempt to find out. Just evil by association. I am pointing out the same tactic is used by church critics for their leaders and perhaps people living in glass houses should be a little more hesitant when they pick up rocks. 

[smac97]

1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Did we really need a 15 image rundown of the guy? Seems excessive to me and totally in bad faith. Ymmv. 

I thought the accusation, standing alone, was serious.  So I ran it down.  As it turns out, there does appear to be at least one sex offender in the video.  Singing about coming after our children.

I provided documentary evidence rather than speculation or hearsay.  For you, this is . . . bad?

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

I agree that was overkill and now it has been mentioned hopefully Smac will remove the excess since this is not a court and hopefully others won’t demand he prove it absolutely.

I am fine with anyone who feels like it just scrolling down past my post.  

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

But respond to that rather than going somewhere equally inappropriate.  

I don't think what I posted was "inappropriate."

Thanks,

-Smac

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 minute ago, smac97 said:

I thought the accusation, standing alone, was serious.  So I ran it down.  As it turns out, there does appear to be at least one sex offender in the video.  Singing about coming after our children.

I provided documentary evidence rather than speculation or hearsay.  For you, this is . . . bad?

Thanks,

-Smac

I find your entire post history on the topic to be inflammatory and in bad taste. In my long read of your posts I have found that you are quick to assume bad faith and bad motives on those that disagree with you. 

[Calm]

Nvm

Edited July 8, 2021 by Calm

[smac97]

1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I find your entire post history on the topic to be inflammatory and in bad taste.

Okay.  Feel free to disregard my posts, then.

1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

In my long read of your posts I have found that you are quick to assume bad faith and bad motives on those that disagree with you. 

Thanks,

-Smac