'A message from the gay community performed by the san francisco gay mens chorus'

[Scott Lloyd]

47 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Huh 🤔. SMAC called this up from 1987 on the first page:

Here John Dehlin talks about his experiences with baseball baptisms in the 1980’s. 
 

https://www.Mormon*******.***/podcast/mormon-stories-podcast-001-kiddie-bapsmy-mission-experience-in-guatemala/

Is it only bad when I do it? Trying to figure this out. 
 

ps

 Look. I have no issues with the church’s missionary program. What I take issue with is the continual mischaracterization that is occurring here with the gay men’s chorus. My intent in posting the baseball baptisms is to show that even good intentions can lead to bad results, and that he who is without sin ought to cast the first stone. The demonization that I see happening here, is unseemly. 

Still a tu quoque fallacy. 
 

I doubt anybody here approves of “baseball baptisms.” So your whataboutism fails as an argument. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, smac97 said:

https://www.ign.com/articles/2003/06/27/chance-thomas-interview-at-gamasutra

Looks legit….

Very cool and fun. Thank you. 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

There is a huge difference in my view of using a first person POV of  ‘I will make a choice to do and be…’ or  ‘I will tell others about what makes me happy’ and intending that will lead others to become like you and a POV that is from ‘we will make others choose…’, especially when the ‘others’ are other people’s children, people many of whom who strongly, even angerly at times disagree with those choices. The first is saying imo I will be an example that can bring change, the latter is saying change is coming to your children whether you want it or not and in the end to you too. 

I think we go far above and beyond simply teaching our children to be good examples, however.  The primary song specifically teaches our children to teach the restored gospel and the Book of Mormon to their friends. That is more than just being a good example.  That is teaching our doctrines (which their parents may have serious issue with) to children behind their parents backs.  This is composed and directed by adults in our church in teaching the youth how to be missionaries to others.  I personally don't see a difference in terms of subverting parenting and efforts in converting children (I am talking about in actual practice, and not the tone of the tongue-in-cheek song).  It is engrained in our youth.  Adults do not shy away from teaching child visitors the gospel at activities, etc. I have seen it happen countless times.  We encourage our youth to invite their friends with the sole intention of converting them.  We NEVER ask them to get their parents permission first, or invite their parents with them.  

In terms of singing about change is coming whether you like it or not - we do believe it, teach it, and practice it through messages like planting seeds and inviting friends to youth activities where missionaries are conveniently present.  We also have many battle songs of triumphing over our foes, like it or not.  Truth will prevail.  We teach our kids to hand out pass-along cards to their friends.  We teach them to share Book of Mormon passages and conference talks and generally share the gospel on social media.  If gay parents were training their children to do the same things, there would be outrage in Christian communities.  If their children were passing out gay pass-along cards to our children - oh ya, there would be outrage!  If there were gay baseball conversion clubs...outrage!

1 hour ago, Calm said:

However, the method of the message itself with the nuances of what is being taught—the attitudes towards others especially—is important.  The first attitude is about sharing joy and happiness, desiring to bring all their friends to joy and this implies bringing happiness to the world as the song does not exclude anyone from being part of their circle of friends. The second song has an us vs them divide in it, it is the children of ‘them’ that are being reached out to.  The “make an ally of you yet” after the rest of the song comes across less as joy at opening someone’s heart so that they become true friends because you care about them and want them to be happy and more like a concern for one’s own happiness, a resistant parent will have to give in to keep family harmony and that benefits the songwriters, the parents are their allies, their supporters rather than being happier themselves because their heart has learned a better way to love. 

I certainly understand how some could interpret it that way and be offended.  I don't interpret it that way.  I see the humor in it.  And honestly, I hope they prevail in their message of fairness and kindness.  And, I see it more as a commentary of how the movement has evolved in the younger generations and how those younger generations are indeed converting and making allies of old-schoolers.  It has all happened already.  Nothing new.  They obviously genuinely believe their cause is just and good and that truth will triumph over old-school mentality in the end - like it or not.  We believe the same thing.  We would never admit it in song (because that would be distasteful and off-putting), but we absolutely would not shy away from converting a child against their parents will (even if that means waiting until they are 18 to baptize them - or working on their parents in the mean-time).  So, if there is anything they are guilty of, it is bad taste and being off-putting.  We have simply had more time to mature than they have and have worked out many of the kinks in messaging.  But we would not shy away from causing division in families if necessary in the name of truth.  We rejoice over the converted child (even if they have been disowned by their parents) and pray for their parents conversion.  I have heard it preached many times.   

Edited July 9, 2021 by pogi

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think we go far above and beyond simply teaching our children to be good examples, however. 

I agree…but I was comparing two songs and what messages they contained, since the songs were being compared. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

26 minutes ago, pogi said:

We NEVER ask them to get their parents permission first, or invite their parents with them.  

I have been in many a Primary meeting where we do just that…tell the kids or the parents of the kids to ask or invite through the parents of the friends first and push the kids hard to invite parents along.  It is, imo, SOP in any Primary I have been in.   Especially in my Utah wards where nonmembers or inactives are a small minority, getting nonmember or inactive parents’ permission for any church activity was seen as essential to avoid conflict. 
 

It may be different in YW/YMs as I have never held a calling there (Primary…I started teaching when 17 and continued till I couldn’t consistently get to church, so about 30 years as a teacher or leader as I would always volunteer for Primary as soon as we moved in to a ward).

Edited July 9, 2021 by Calm

[pogi]

40 minutes ago, Calm said:

I have been in many a Primary meeting where we do just that…tell the kids or the parents of the kids to ask or invite through the parents of the friends first and push the kids hard to invite parents along.  It is, imo, SOP in any Primary I have been in.   Especially in my Utah wards where nonmembers or inactives are a small minority, getting nonmember or inactive parents’ permission for any church activity was seen as essential to avoid conflict. 
 

It may be different in YW/YMs as I have never held a calling there (Primary…I started teaching when 17 and continued till I couldn’t consistently get to church, so about 30 years as a teacher or leader as I would always volunteer for Primary as soon as we moved in to a ward).

I am glad they do that in primary.  It makes a lot of sense with younger kids.  I have been in Young men/scouts forever and have never seen it there.  

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am glad they do that in primary.  It makes a lot of sense with younger kids.  I have been in Young men/scouts forever and have never seen it there.  

This is no doubt sexist, but I think this is something mothers in general do or maybe women in general have been taught more in the American culture , which is to be concerned about others’ reactions as well as one’s own. 
 

I would be interested to hear from YWs leaders on whether or not this is considered. 

Edited July 10, 2021 by Calm

[esodije]

A generation ago, the SF Gay Men’s Chorus was singing, “Ask Me No More.” Now it’s “We’re Coming for Your Children”?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Still a tu quoque fallacy

Yes. It’s hard to see how the church’s history of predatory baptisms of minors (that spanned multiple decades and continents) could have any relevance to this thread. 

[Scott Lloyd]

12 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Yes. It’s hard to see how the church’s history of predatory baptisms of minors (that spanned multiple decades and continents) could have any relevance to this thread. 

Whataboutism on stuff that nobody here approves of anyway is an extremely weak argument. Repeating it doesn’t make it any stronger. 
 

It’s not that difficult a concept a concept to grasp, especially for one who claims to be “seeking understanding.” 
 

Google “tu quoque fallacy” if you need a tutorial. 

Edited July 10, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I doubt anybody here approves of “baseball baptisms.” So your whataboutism fails as an argument. 

But the Church did do it in the past and it could be useful to compare reactions to the behaviour or rather attitudes of those doing. Do we judge the intent to convert to an attitude of acceptance in the same way or we excuse behaviour in one case where we aren’t in another?

What would you say about the intent and character of missionaries who used baseball baptisms to bring individuals into the faith?  Some who bragged about numbers of baptisms even…

What do you think about the intent and character of members who invite minors to church activities hoping it will have an influence on them caring about parents’ wishes or the potential conflict this could cause?

What do you think about the intent and character of gay men who don’t care if parents agree or not about their kids being taught to be tolerant to LGBTQ+?

[bsjkki]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

What do you think about the intent and character of members who invite minors to church activities hoping it will have an influence on them caring about parents’ wishes or the potential conflict this could cause?

I don’t know of children attending youth activities or primary without their parents permission. Parents know when attending religious meetings, religion will be discussed. I’ve had parents not let their kids come to a church activity because it’s not of their own faith. I know LDS parents who are not comfortable with this. I grew up attending vacation Bible school with a friend. Of course my parents gave me permission. We are talking about children. 
 

My sister did attend seminary and purposefully deceived my father. Isn’t that on her? 

Edited July 10, 2021 by bsjkki

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

But the Church did do it in the past and it could be useful to compare reactions to the behaviour or rather attitudes of those doing. Do we judge the intent to convert to an attitude of acceptance in the same way or we excuse behaviour in one case where we aren’t in another?

I already said I don’t approve of it. That goes for past as well as present. So it doesn’t work for me as a point of comparison. It was altogether a mistake in the past as it would be today. That’s pretty much axiomatic these days. 
 

Maybe you need to carry on this conversation with somebody who is inclined to defend baseball baptisms — if you can find anybody like that here.

 

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

My sister did attend seminary and purposefully deceived my father. Isn’t that on her? 

Was she a minor?  
 

If a minor, did her teacher know about the deception?  Did attending seminary require registration and a waiver of parents?  I don’t know requirements then or now, can’t remember and don’t want to research …but I can see a situation where a teacher just assumed she was a typical student and they weren’t required to get such info nor had their experience been anything but parents okay with it. 

If a minor and there was any awareness that she was not supposed to be there, then I see the teacher as having their own responsibilities that they failed to keep. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I am glad they do that in primary.  It makes a lot of sense with younger kids.  I have been in Young men/scouts forever and have never seen it there.  

We made it a point to do it when I was the YW's president a couple of years ago.  Especially with the parents who were members but didn't want to have anything to do with the church.  

[smac97]

Rosser and Sohne, the creators of the song, have published a statement:

Some responses to this tweet:

Quote

As a gay man, I am ashamed by this video. You people are sick and I hope the @FBI  investigates each and everyone of you. Congrats, just set LGBT acceptance back a decade. You people are sick and I hope everyone of you arrested.

Quote

Guys, that song was in bad taste.  It's time to apologize and move on.

Quote

People like you bring the lgbt community back 10 steps. Its an amazing feat for 2 men to accomplish but you’re working hard.

Alex Dreemurr

Quote

 

 

@echo_genesis·Jul 8

 

Replying to@RosserandSohne

Alt-right hate?
Even I was like "wtf is this?"
If you're gonna do satire, make it clear, or humorous.

 

 

Quote

FOMO the Hutt @NEOfiend1 · 18h

Replying to @RosserandSohne

 

Literally just had a gay couple move in across from us,they have a 6 yr old & so do we, my wife had them over , they did tie dye shirts, &played, I played your vid 4my wife, we will no longer allow our child in the vicinity of this family, U guys really set back relations 30yrs

Quote

Given where politics are in this country right now, you shouldn’t even be joking about this. The deal was to let people live openly and not be discriminated against legally, the deal was never that you get to indoctrinate our kids without consent. They are our kids, not yours.

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Turns out ppl don’t take too kindly to targeting children even if it was meant as a joke. How about we just agree they should be off limits.

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I consider what your likely position is on the practice of gender transitioning grade school children and promoting child drag/strip shows like "Desmond is Amazing" to understand the full context of your threats to "come for our children."

Quote

Predictable response, but your failure to connect the outrage from the afghan pedo controversy to now publishing a song about "coming after children" is a bit alarming. Do you guys have anyone proofread your content first or do you just write some crazy **** and roll with it?

Quote

You're not being honest, you are targeting children and disguising the indoctrination as love and tolerance. Its transparent as hell and no 9new in their right mind, gay or straight should condone this

Quote

This is an even worse deflection than from that time you tried to glorify bacha bazi practice (aka child rape) and got called out on it.

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Yeah I am sure your explanation is just dandy and hits every point you need for your twitter and activist followers. Don't threaten children. The likelihood the parents will laugh is zero.

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All of the progress we’ve made as a community and then you put it back by decades with this stupid, crass and suspect song

Take some %^&$^%# responsibility instead of blaming others

Quote

I am firmly pro-gay.

However, I will not allow strangers to attempt to coerce or indoctrinate my children, in any way.

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What the $%&^ were you thinking? A song about coming for people's children? This song will literally cause more hatred for LBGT Community.

Quote

“We were only kidding!” Yeah, no you weren’t. Every gay dude I follow thinks your song was gross.

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I’ve now added abolishing same sex marriage to my political beliefs. Thank you for showing me my live and let live outlook was incorrect.

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You're disgusting. Children should not be sexualized.

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I have no problem with gay people, and I'm not right wing, and i think you crossed the line. You can cut it with the deflecting bull^%$&. You are not the victim here. Leave kids the %$^& alone, and if you want to dive into politics, you will get eaten. Maybe stay out of it.

Quote

You keep b$%*&^#g that the "alt right" are the only people objecting. Wrong. It's people from both sides.

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So many gay people are repulsed by this. You aren’t doing your community any favours.

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You have taken gay respectability back by a 100 yrs you pathetic pieces of useless $&%^#$^&#. I am disgusted by the ^%$& stunts you pull for sick virtue signalling and hurt the fight I do to advance gay rights in my part of the world.

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You glorify child rape AKA "bacha bazi". That's $%^#*&^ sick. Ugly, disgusting sociopaths.

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"alt-right"

You wish. You just shook the nest of every decent parent in the country by letting your disgusting mask slip.

And these are the moderate responses.  Many of them are substantially worse.

One more:

Quote

The broad criticism isn't anti-gay. LGBT persons are just as capable parents as anyone else. Your track record of pedophilia combined with motte-and-bailey tactics is the criticism.

I had to look up "motte-and-bailey" tactics.  See here:

Quote

The motte-and-bailey fallacy (named after the motte-and-bailey castle) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy where an arguer conflates two positions which share similarities, one modest and easy to defend (the "motte") and one much more controversial (the "bailey"). The arguer advances the controversial position, but when challenged, they insist that they are only advancing the more modest position. Upon retreating to the motte, the arguer can claim that the bailey has not been refuted (because the critic refused to attack the motte)^[1] or that the critic is unreasonable (by equating an attack on the bailey with an attack on the motte).

Huh.  

Dislike of the song/video really does not seem to be a "right wing" thing.  Or a "Mormon" thing.  Or a Smac97 thing.  The criticisms do seem to be coming from across the political spectrum, and from both gays, and gay "allies," and "normies."

Thanks,

-Smac

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Was she a minor?  
 

If a minor, did her teacher know about the deception?  Did attending seminary require registration and a waiver of parents?  I don’t know requirements then or now, can’t remember and don’t want to research …but I can see a situation where a teacher just assumed she was a typical student and they weren’t required to get such info nor had their experience been anything but parents okay with it. 

If a minor and there was any awareness that she was not supposed to be there, then I see the teacher as having their own responsibilities that they failed to keep. 

You have to register for seminary here in Utah.  I don't remember how it worked when I was a kid.  

[bsjkki]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

Was she a minor?  
 

If a minor, did her teacher know about the deception?  Did attending seminary require registration and a waiver of parents?  I don’t know requirements then or now, can’t remember and don’t want to research …but I can see a situation where a teacher just assumed she was a typical student and they weren’t required to get such info nor had their experience been anything but parents okay with it. 

If a minor and there was any awareness that she was not supposed to be there, then I see the teacher as having their own responsibilities that they failed to keep. 

I don’t think the teachers knew. She pretended she had early morning flag practice. My mother probably did know but I was the youngest so I don’t know for sure. I do know my dad cried when my sisters got baptized after they turned 18. You need permission. For many years my mother didn’t get baptized because she needed the consent of her spouse.

 

[pogi]

12 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I don’t know of children attending youth activities or primary without their parents permission.

It happens all the time in YM.  We often do activities like basketball or ultimate frisbee or other activities, and the youth would often bring their non-member friends.  The leaders invite them to bring their friends.  No one ever asks if they have their parents permission.  Teenagers are not always the best at updating their parents as to their whereabouts and activities either.  Prayers are offered and spiritual gospel messages are always shared.  Often, missionaries are conveniently there BRTing.  

[smac97]

Further information about the apology Sohne and Rosser issued re: their musical:

Quote

This was met with more anger from Afghans who registered their disgust on Twitter:

Quote

Nur Al @_Nur_Al · Jul 15, 2020

 

Replying to@RosserandSohne

“Sorry that, to some.” FULL STOP. This apology is MEANINGLESS as soon as they say this, because they know EXACTLY what you are doing when you use this language. They are trying to delegitimaze our VERY justified outrage by suggesting it is only felt by “some”. Disgusting trash.

Quote

maryam is anti bigpharma @inKqalaabi · Jul 15, 2020

 

Replying to @RosserandSohne

this is the ugliest "apology" i have ever seen

Quote

 

@_HalemaW · Jul 15, 2020

Replying to @AzitaGhanizada @DiversionarySD and @RosserandSohne

The fact they’re using “if I had a boy of my own” as a real hashtag????? Omg... promotion of the play by encouraging grooming and pedopholia and sexual slavery?????? Wtf

Quote

Farangies Shah @FarangiesShah · Jul 15, 2020

 

The sensationalization of it all is so sickening. If we look closely at the apology written it’s only apologizing that “some people didn’t understand our intentions.”

 

And some commentary about Sohne and Rosser trying to delete the video:

Quote

The San Francisco Gay Men’s Choir is now reportedly working “around the clock” to have their “tongue in cheek” video scrubbed from the internet.

Quote

Andy Ngô @MrAndyNgo

Update: The @SFGMC says it is working “around the clock” to scrub their video about children from the internet after it caught the attention of “far-right conservative media.”

 

As Ace of Spades HQ correctly notes, the group’s argument that conservatives are taking their “humor” “out of context doesn’t quite square with their aggressive stance of “siccing lawyers on commentators for publishing the video in full context.”

How can people judge whether it’s being “taken out of context” when they’re using legal threats to specifically keep people from judging the context?

That, of course, is the whole game.

A prompt apology and retraction might have worked.  Instead, they doubled down, blamed ideological opponents, and are now trying to memory-hole the video.  An apology at this point would perhaps not come across as sincere.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited July 10, 2021 by smac97

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I had to look up "motte-and-bailey" tactics.  See here:

It’s my first exposure to the term as well. 
 

But it seems to me it could apply to the rationalization that SeekingUnderstanding is attempting with his contrived comparison of the song to the “baseball baptisms” of yesteryear — which nobody I’m aware of today approves of anyway, if they’ve even heard of them or remember them. 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

It happens all the time in YM.  We often do activities like basketball or ultimate frisbee or other activities, and the youth would often bring their non-member friends.  The leaders invite them to bring their friends.  No one ever asks if they have their parents permission.  Teenagers are not always the best at updating their parents as to their whereabouts and activities either.  Prayers are offered and spiritual gospel messages are always shared.  Often, missionaries are conveniently there BRTing.  

Well if it’s being done without parental approval under your leadership, it’s on you, right? 

[Peacefully]

4 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Here is where I could take offense should I choose to at these lyrics (I don't really choose to get offended very often :-)). - It's a lot like the signs "In this house - we believe in science, love is love etc."  The way they are worded implies that we , the straight listeners, are not already teaching our kids these things, and they NEED to be converted. It implies pretty directly that the listener is a homophobe and is teaching it to their children by default - just like those signs seem to imply that those 'other' homes where YOU live are rubes who hate science and gays if they don't believe or express themselves like I do.

I see the intent of taking the steam out of the trope of gay men coming for our kids by writing a 'parody' song - but I also agree with some that it can come across as mean-spirited and 'othering" if that is even a word.  🙂

 

When I hear it, I don’t internalize it because I do teach my children to be tolerant and fair. So for me, there is nothing to see here. I assume it is directed towards people who are intolerant and hateful. Unfortunately, I don’t believe the people it is directed will have a change of heart because of a satirical song. They are probably wasting their breath but it is probably very cathartic. 

[pogi]

21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Well if it’s being done without parental approval under your leadership, it’s on you, right? 

I am afraid it is bigger than me, or my ward, and I was never the YM President.  This is systemically engrained in our youth to invite, to teach, to share BoM verses and conference messages and Mormon videos on social media - and pass-along cards.  Show me any official statement that youth should seek parental permission from all of their social media friends before clicking “post” or “send” or “submit”, or before inviting them to a game of ball.   I have never heard the caveat of receiving parental permission officially taught except in baptisms and missionary discussions.  I have heard it heavily pushed to teach and invite and share, however.  I will also add this happened on a stake level.  Our YM groups were so small in the stake that we would combine wards.

Edited July 10, 2021 by pogi

[poptart]