Blaming ourselves for others' actions

[Fether]

21 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Odd since for years the SEALs have been urging their former members not to commercialize their former role as a selling point or to publicize about it. Hmmmmm........

All kinds of idiots run gyms and show up on political talk shows. They put people from Congress on for crying out loud and they get their job the same way prom queens do.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, sell guides.

 

Anyone who knew the secret to success would hold it close and only share it with those they love. If someone claims to want to share the secret of success to the world be very wary. Never buy investments that have to advertise. If someone is selling you a guide to success in a field make sure they actually make money in the field themselves and they better make most of their money doing that rather than make it hocking verbiage to rubes or you know right away what they are really good at. Never trust anyone who is more interested in success than what they want to be successful at.

 

For funsies have this. Take it as anecdotal drivel and it doesn't prove anything but it sounds similar to a gripe from a former SEAL I spoke with once about the weird idolization some have for the job:

So the SEALs put him on the unofficial shame list? Yikes.

Your wisdom knows no bounds

[The Nehor]

Just now, AtlanticMike said:

Does that same logic apply to someone who says they have the "secret" to life after death, like a prophet? Let's say there's this church that claims they can help you live with God again, as long as you follow the "rules" should they be trusted?

Definitely. Be very wary and careful with anyone presenting a story like that. If you do not get some sense of divine confirmation kick them to the curb. I have found a few I believe and find credible on that basis but the vast majority of people who say they are prophets are shysters.

There are a lot more self-proclaimed prophets lately though. I think I read something about that somewhere. Sign of something or other. Meh, probably not important.

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, Fether said:

Your wisdom knows no bounds

Since I hit the boundaries every day I suspect this of being a patronizing lie of some sort.

[AtlanticMike]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I have found a few I believe and find credible on that basis but the vast majority of people who say they are prophets are shysters.

Can all the true prophets be found in one organization/religion, or are they in multiple organizations/religions? Just wondering, I don't know that much about prophets outside my own church.

[The Nehor]

38 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Can all the true prophets be found in one organization/religion, or are they in multiple organizations/religions? Just wondering, I don't know that much about prophets outside my own church.

I dunno.

[Danzo]

I think there is a lot to learn by taking owership of ones problems.

If we blame everything on our environment or others, then we are basically saying that we have no control over our situation.   Admitting to ownership of our stituation leads to gaining power and control (at least partially).

Nehor's example of ADHD.

I too have ADHD.  It gives me a certian set of strengths and weakness: the ability to hyperfocus on things and the difficulty with changing that focus and noticing things outside that focus.

By understanding the condition I have, I have been about to hire people that can look after the things that I have difficulty with at work. I have also arranged the office so I don't get many interuptions.  I have also been able to hijack the enhanced focus that ADHD brings to solve problems that other have difficulty with. 

Is it my fault I have ADHD? Probably not.   I can't just stop there. I need to look at my situation and see if there are things I can do to make it better.

 

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Danzo said:

I think there is a lot to learn by taking owership of ones problems.

If we blame everything on our environment or others, then we are basically saying that we have no control over our situation.   Admitting to ownership of our stituation leads to gaining power and control (at least partially).

Nehor's example of ADHD.

I too have ADHD.  It gives me a certian set of strengths and weakness: the ability to hyperfocus on things and the difficulty with changing that focus and noticing things outside that focus.

By understanding the condition I have, I have been about to hire people that can look after the things that I have difficulty with at work. I have also arranged the office so I don't get many interuptions.  I have also been able to hijack the enhanced focus that ADHD brings to solve problems that other have difficulty with. 

Is it my fault I have ADHD? Probably not.   I can't just stop there. I need to look at my situation and see if there are things I can do to make it better.

I don't disagree. That is my general approach of trying to emphasize strength and minimize weaknesses but the prescription seemed to be that I can recast my weaknesses as strengths with the right mindset or make them go away. If trying hard or getting inot the right mindset did that I suspect I would have eliminated those weaknesses long ago.

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Danzo said:

owership of ones problems.

Ownership of problems is not the same as saying I am the cause of all my problems, imo. 

[Danzo]

Just now, Calm said:

Ownership of problems is not the same as saying I am the cause of all my problems, imo. 

You are right, it isn't the same.

Often, the process of taking ownership does involve looking at causes.  It isn't about blame. It is about gaining control.  Often we use the same language to talk about both. 

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, Danzo said:

You are right, it isn't the same.

Often, the process of taking ownership does involve looking at causes.  It isn't about blame. It is about gaining control.  Often we use the same language to talk about both. 

I am having no problem with the way you are formulating your approach. It appears to be very close to mine.
 

I do see Fether’s description of one approach in his first post in this thread*** as significantly different from what you describe.  His was much more absolute...referring specifically to the below:

”blame off of everything and taking control of your life by realizing that there are things you could have done and can do to avoid all your problems.”

 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Calm

[Danzo]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I don't disagree. That is my general approach of trying to emphasize strength and minimize weaknesses but the prescription seemed to be that I can recast my weaknesses as strengths with the right mindset or make them go away. If trying hard or getting inot the right mindset did that I suspect I would have eliminated those weaknesses long ago.

It's not about strengths and weaknesses, its about understanding ones problems and looking at opportunites.  The weaknesses don't ever go away. but I can be more aware of them and look for ways to mitigate them.   

So with my ADHD, I can can usually do a good job doing 10 things sequencially, but when I get 10 things to do at once, I either ignore them all and go internet surfing or if things are really urgent, I just end up in the fetal position.

I have had to train the staff to just give me one of the 10 tasks at a time.

I also realized that I make a terrible employee, no one in their right mind would ever hire me,   so I had to start my own business.

I still have my weakness, and yes they do make me weak, but try to walk a path that minimizes the impact of my weakness and maximizes my strengths. 

[Fether]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am having no problem with the way you are formulating your approach. It appears to be very close to mine.
 

I do see Fether’s description of one approach in his first post in this thread*** as significantly different from what you describe.  His is much more absolute...referring specifically to the below:

”blame off of everything and taking control of your life by realizing that there are things you could have done and can do to avoid all your problems.

I immediately admitted that was a poor use of words in how I described it. I’m sorry, I didn’t realize you were still stuck on that line

Edited June 14, 2021 by Fether

[Calm]

Just now, Fether said:

So you are just going to ignore the post where I admit that was a poor explanation of the principle and all the times I specifically listed out what it wasnt?

I wasn’t until you said this. 

[Danzo]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am having no problem with the way you are formulating your approach. It appears to be very close to mine.
 

I do see Fether’s description of one approach in his first post in this thread*** as significantly different from what you describe.  His is much more absolute...referring specifically to the below:

”blame off of everything and taking control of your life by realizing that there are things you could have done and can do to avoid all your problems.”

 

Though I see Hyperbole in his statment (maybe I am seeing it as hyperbole when it isn't) the overall aproach of taking ownership of ones problems (even when they are caused by factors outside ones control) to be a useful one.

The part about blaming yourself (or someone else) isn't very useful. It isn't about blame or shame. Blame and shame look backword toward the past, something no one can control.  One may profit by looking at the past and learning from it to inform ones future.

For example, when I was a student, I had a bicycle that was stolen from me.   I certainly wasn't responsible for the theft, it was the actions of someone else. I can't even really blame the other person because I don't know who they were and maybe they had starving children or some other good excuse.

I did invest in a better bike lock and was more careful in the future on where I left my bike.  I haven't had a bycicle stolen since. Even though I had no blame for the bycicle theft, There were still things I could learn help me in the future. However if I had the attitude that I was right, the theif was wrong and I had no part in the thief's actions, I might not have learned anything and had many more bike's stolen from me. 

 

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, Danzo said:

However if I had the attitude that I was right, the theif was wrong and I had no part in the thief's actio

I believe I agree with everything here except the way this is phrased.  Your only “part” in my view of the thief’s actions was you had a bicycle and it was in a place the thief had access to just because it was public. I see it as inappropriate to phrase creating access as having a part of another’s actions unless the intent was to create access. 
 

It is very, very important Imo to use language not to imply a contribution where a contribution does not exist as it shifts responsibility and diminishes agency of the actor, in this case the thief. 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Calm

[Danzo]

10 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

 

This self-blaming for the actions of others, to me, seems to be very unhealthy.

If someone offered me a cigarette, I'd say no, thanks. I would not ask myself what I did to make that person think I'd like a cigarette.

If I was cut off in traffic, I wouldn't ask myself what I did to make the cut-off-er think that I'd like that

If someone stole from me, I wouldn't ask myself what I did to make the thief think that I'd like that

If a friend punched me in the face,  I wouldn't ask myself what I did to make the friend think that I'd like that.

 

 

Although self-blaming is unhealthy, self reflection isn't.

If someone offered me a cigarette, was it bacause I expressed interest in smoking? maybe I took that cigarette from him yesterday?

If I get cut off in traffic, do I often get cut off in traffic? am i driving too fast? Am I hard to see (often happens with motorcycles).

If someone stole form me.  Did I leave a package in plain site in my car? Do I properly secure things? Am I in a dangerous part of the city?

If a friend punched me in the face. Did I punch him first? Question his parentage? Blame him for getting offered a cigarette?

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I believe I agree with everything here except the way this is phrased.  Your only “part” in my view of the thief’s actions was you had a bicycle and it was in a place the thief had access to just because it was public. I see it as inappropriate to phrase creating access as having a part of another’s actions unless the intent was to create access. 
 

It is very, very important Imo to use language not to imply a contribution where a contribution does not exist as it shifts responsibility and diminishes agency of the actor, in this case the thief. 

Limiting access is an important part of preventing theft and other crimes.  Although I am not to blame for the thief's actions, where I put my stuff can have a big influence on whether or not it is stolen.  I currently commute to work by walking, so I haven't communted by bicycle in a while, but when I did, I made sure the bike was stored in the building where I worked and not on the street.  That isn't always possible for everyone, but there are better and worse places to leave ones stuff to avoid having it stolen. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

Limiting access is an important part of preventing theft and other crimes.

I am trying to figure a way to discuss intelligent safety precautions that do not shift any responsibility for criminal behaviour on to the owner or victim.  Not as big of a deal for theft and other property crimes in my experience (though that is highly limited), but assault crimes...I think language is important because it is so easy to start blaming ourselves as if we were part of the crime. 
 

Limiting opportunities for theft (whatever crime) perhaps?  

Edited June 15, 2021 by Calm

[Rain]

7 hours ago, Fether said:

 

He addresses this specifically and admittedly I wont be able to give the concept justice. I’m not explaining it well and because of that, you aren’t understanding it.

It is a business focused book, but bleeds over into normal life. In cases of business and the military, if problems arise, do you want the leader to be pointing fingers at others or do you want a leader that says “I could have done X and Y to avoid this and I’ll make sure it doesn’t happen again.”

Its about problem solving and progression. 
 

What people do to you is done, what are you going to do now to recover and make sure it doesn’t happen again.

A practical example: 

if someone breaks into my house and steals my car, the natural reaction is to be angry and blame him for my anger, financial pain, inconvenience in life, etc. It is very reactive and there is no growth in that.  but a more proactive approach would be to admit that had you paid for a security system, or maybe you out too much value on material things, or maybe admit that had you a better control over your emotions, you wouldn’t be so distraught. There is more growth and recovery found in this approach.

This sounds a lot like 7 Habits for Highly Effective People, but he has the proactive as more forward thinking of what will I do now verses self blame about the past.

7 hours ago, Fether said:

Again, this isn’t about blame, this isn’t about feeling shame for things that happen to you. And the book makes no claim that problems won’t happen anymore should you start doing this, nor is it saying that you should feel bad for yourself if bad things happen, or that you are inferior to those who don’t experience similar pains. 
 

It is about regaining power over your life and claiming all things in your life, both positive and negative. 
 

The example above of being shown porn is an example of this (though perhaps poorly explained)
 

But really, I recommend reading it. It is genuinely one of the greatest “self help” / business books written in the last 10 years.

https://www.audible.com/pd/Extreme-Ownership-Audiobook/B015TVHUA2

 

[Amulek]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

I am trying to figure a way to discuss intelligent safety precautions that do not shift any responsibility for criminal behaviour on to the owner or victim.  Not as big of a deal for theft and other property crimes in my experience (though that is highly limited), but assault crimes...I think language is important because it is so easy to start blaming ourselves as if we were part of the crime. 

Limiting opportunities for theft (whatever crime) perhaps?

When you have a minute, I would recommend taking a look at this article: Nude pictures, hackers, advice, blame and freedom. It's from law professor Eugene Volokh back when his blog was hosted by the Washington Post. It does a good job of hitting on many of the big bullet points that come up in these types of discussions and is worth checking out.

 

[Danzo]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

I am trying to figure a way to discuss intelligent safety precautions that do not shift any responsibility for criminal behaviour on to the owner or victim.  Not as big of a deal for theft and other property crimes in my experience (though that is highly limited), but assault crimes...I think language is important because it is so easy to start blaming ourselves as if we were part of the crime. 
 

Limiting opportunities for theft (whatever crime) perhaps?  

Analysis without judgement.

I think it is possible, though it may  be difficult, to analyze without judgment.   Obviously there is a time and a place for such analysis. When I was a fire fighter in my youth, we would often respond to vehicle accidents.  These accidents had a variety of causes; drunk driving, inattentive driving, vehicle maintance issues, etc.  Often the injuries were made much worse by people not wearing seatbelts.  

When we arrived on the scene, we treated the injuries and didn't spend our time trying to blame and judge the victims.  It just wasn't the time or place. Often judgment came later in the form of deciding fault, lawsuits and even criminal charges.

Often someone who didn't cause the accident was killed or seriously injured because they were ejected due to them not wearing a seatbelt?  Is there some blame or judment that goes to someone who gets seriously injured or killed by a drunk driver because the victim wasn't wearing a seat belt?

Fortunatly, because we were firefighters and not police, we weren't required to make these judgements and leave them to others.

If I tell my kids to wear a seat belt is it victim blaming?

If I tell people to not drive while distracted or drunk is it victim blaming?

If I encourge people to properly maintain their car is it victim blaming?

Even if people take these preventative measures, they can still, through no fault of their own, get in a car accident due to other people's actions.

If I were to tell people these things right after they get in an accident, it probably would come accross as victim blaming.  If I tell people these things before anything bad happens as a precaution to prevent accidents, it probably isn't.  If I were to tell people these preventative measures to a group of people, some who unkown to me had just experienced a car accident, some of them might feal I was blaming them.

 

I think it may be the same for sexual assult. There are many preventive measure that one can take to reduce likelyhood of assault.  Sometimes people will get assaulted despite all of the preventative measures taken. 

Does this negate the usefulness of preventative measuress?

Do we stop teaching preventative measures because they may cause someone to blame themselves?

 

[Kenngo1969]

21 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Does that same logic apply to someone who says they have the "secret" to life after death, like a prophet?

You mean, like, Jesus Christ (see John 7:17*)?  Yeah, I would say He has the secret to life after death.  (I know.   Call me crazy ... )

 

21 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Let's say there's this church that claims they can help you live with God again, as long as you follow the "rules" should they be trusted?

While I do hope, someday, to reap an eternal benefit, I'd be worried about people (Prophets, Seers, and Revelators) telling me about benefits that, one day, I will receive ... If I received absolutely no benefit from living the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ in the here-and-now.  (If you want to equate the Brethren to some MLM huckster who, when I confide in him that I'm discouraged because it isn't working for me, tells me, "Work the plan!  Keep sending those checks! ..." that's your business.)

*And, by the way, that same test works whoever is doing the talking, whether it's President Russell M. Nelson, President Dallin H. Oaks, President Henry B. Eyring, President M. Russell Ballard, or anyone else in the leadership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 

[bsjkki]

I think a lot of people fall into self blame too easily and also blame others for their own misfortune. I think of it as the 'illusion of control.' We want to think our choices can make it so those bad things don't happen to us therefore when bad things happen it is somehow the persons fault or your own fault. I've seen this turn into very unhealthy behaviors. I know rape victims who develop OCD behaviors thinking if they just do everything right, it won't happen again. With Covid, for some, it has turned into very unhealthy isolation and a withdrawal from society to an extreme level. For some, going outside is very difficult even though they are vaccinated. Their kids fear people. They won't go to the park until their two year old can get vaccinated (which could never be approved.)

I'm sure many of you have seen examples about unhealthy behaviors that have developed in trauma victims because they want 'control' of  their situation. It is very important how we teach things because we don't always know how people internalize our words. Calm is very wise in pointing out the importance of precise language. As youth leaders, we need to be extra careful. I've had my words thrown back at me in ways I never meant  them to be understood but it was how those words were internalized. I don't control that unless proper follow up questions are asked or there is a discussion. In classrooms and Bishop's offices, often a youth will not speak up or express how they are thinking about what is being taught.

 

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Danzo said:

Do we stop teaching preventative measures because they may cause someone to blame themselves?

I would say we need to stop connecting preventative measures with responsibility for the crime...”if only they hadn’t (had)” type of commentary. 

[Calm]

9 hours ago, Amulek said:

When you have a minute, I would recommend taking a look at this article: Nude pictures, hackers, advice, blame and freedom. It's from law professor Eugene Volokh back when his blog was hosted by the Washington Post. It does a good job of hitting on many of the big bullet points that come up in these types of discussions and is worth checking out.

 

I am hesitant to click on any link that starts with “nude pictures”, lol. I am too well trained, I guess. 
 

It requires a subscription. 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Calm