Chum Posted May 31, 2021 Posted May 31, 2021 13 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: So what is the answer? I am not Ahab nor do I know anything about them. Having been asked this before, my baseless opinion of Ahab is quite positive.
Scott Lloyd Posted May 31, 2021 Posted May 31, 2021 (edited) 15 hours ago, JAHS said: Yes well there's where my confusion lies. Earlier you agreed with Duncan when he said Branch presidents preside. Others will also say it is the Branch president who presides over the baptism services. Of course the mission president most likely rarely actually attends baptisms in a mission. When I agreed with Duncan, it was in the context of a stake/ward structure, not a mission/district/branch structure. If it’s a ward, as opposed to a branch, I believe the bishop would preside even if the mission president is in attendance. Edited May 31, 2021 by Scott Lloyd 1
Scott Lloyd Posted May 31, 2021 Posted May 31, 2021 5 minutes ago, Chum said: I am not Ahab nor do I know anything about them. Having been asked this before, my baseless opinion of Ahab is quite positive. OK. My suspicion — and perhaps that of others — is due to Ahab’s general bullheadedness combined with his propensity to make up his own quirky rules and definitions.
AtlanticMike Posted May 31, 2021 Posted May 31, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: OK. My suspicion — and perhaps that of others — is due to Ahab’s general bullheadedness combined with his propensity to make up his own quirky rules and definitions. I love Ahab, he's seems like a fun guy to hang around. He cracks me up! Edited May 31, 2021 by AtlanticMike 2
Chum Posted May 31, 2021 Posted May 31, 2021 10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: My suspicion — and perhaps that of others — is due to Ahab’s general bullheadedness combined with his propensity to make up his own quirky rules and definitions. Just for the record, I'm not admitting anything about frequent blackouts where I come back and find stuff on the screen that isn't familiar.
JAHS Posted June 1, 2021 Author Posted June 1, 2021 20 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: That statement is dated in at least one respect: The term “Area Authority Seventy” has been discontinued. That office is now called “Area Seventy”. I would feel more confident in this if you could find a quote that states the same thing but is from the current Church handbook. It's in the most current Branch Guidebook on the Church website. It is a bit old (2001) but if it's still there I would think it is still useful.
Amulek Posted June 1, 2021 Posted June 1, 2021 On 5/31/2021 at 10:59 AM, JAHS said: OK. I found a statement from the church that clarifies this: "The branch president presides at sacrament meetings, priesthood meetings, and other branch meetings he attends, unless a member of the district or mission presidency, an Area Authority Seventy, or a General Authority is present. The branch president invites these visiting, presiding authorities to sit on the stand. He makes an earnest effort to ensure that all meetings and activities help members come unto Christ." I assume "other branch meetings" includes baptism services. That is talking about branches which are organized under a mission president. So yes, the mission president would preside in such meetings were he to attend. However, there is a difference between branches organized in missions as opposed to branches organized in stakes. See, e.g., here, in the current handbook. The most common situation here in the US / Canada would be branches organized within stakes (e.g., foreign language speakers, young single adults, etc.). For those branches, the mission president wouldn't be the presiding authority, so he wouldn't preside at a baptismal service held within the unit. 4
Scott Lloyd Posted June 1, 2021 Posted June 1, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, JAHS said: It's in the most current Branch Guidebook on the Church website. It is a bit old (2001) but if it's still there I would think it is still useful. I don’t deny it’s still useful. But the reliability (for me, anyway) is enhanced if I know it’s from an up-to-date publication. The Church handbook these days is updated online with a frequency of not years but months. Use of a discontinued term (by several years) cries out to me “outdated.” Are you sure there’s not something comparable to your quote in the current Church handbook? Edited June 1, 2021 by Scott Lloyd
Jamie Posted June 1, 2021 Posted June 1, 2021 On 5/30/2021 at 7:22 AM, JAHS said: The question of who presides comes up sometimes at certain church meetings. Specifically if a new convert is being baptized and the Mission president happens to be at the baptism service, does he preside or is it the Stake President/Bishop who preside? What if there is not a stake organized in the area and the baptism occurs in a branch? Does the mission president preside or the Branch President? The handbook says "The mission president holds the priesthood keys for baptizing converts in a mission." but it does not specify under what circumstances he would preside at the baptism service. Knowing who called who to their position in the church is probably the easiest way to recognize who presides when a bunch of people are together. The bishop/branch president of a ward/branch is the top leader in a ward/branch and it is he who calls the ward or branch mission leader. The position of mission president is a stake calling, however, called by the stake president or sometimes one of the councilors in the stake presidency, and he is the top leader of all ward or branch mission leaders in each ward/branch. The bishop or branch president is still the top leader in each ward or branch, though, even though the mission president was called by the stake president, because the bishop or branch president was also called by the stake president or presidency and the bishop or branch president is still the top leader in each ward or branch. Anyway, knowing that kind of stuff is what helps me to figure out who is the top leader who presides when more than one leader is present.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 2, 2021 Posted June 2, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jamie said: Knowing who called who to their position in the church is probably the easiest way to recognize who presides when a bunch of people are together. The bishop/branch president of a ward/branch is the top leader in a ward/branch and it is he who calls the ward or branch mission leader. The position of mission president is a stake calling, however, called by the stake president or sometimes one of the councilors in the stake presidency, and he is the top leader of all ward or branch mission leaders in each ward/branch. The bishop or branch president is still the top leader in each ward or branch, though, even though the mission president was called by the stake president, because the bishop or branch president was also called by the stake president or presidency and the bishop or branch president is still the top leader in each ward or branch. Anyway, knowing that kind of stuff is what helps me to figure out who is the top leader who presides when more than one leader is present. Mission president is not a stake calling. It is a calling issued by the First Presidency of the Church. Unless you are referring to the calling of stake mission president, and I don’t think that calling exists anymore. There are no longer “stake missions.” Ward missionaries (formerly called stake missionaries) are today called by and under the leadership of the bishopric, including the ward mission leader. Edited June 2, 2021 by Scott Lloyd 3
Amulek Posted June 2, 2021 Posted June 2, 2021 1 hour ago, Jamie said: The position of mission president is a stake calling, however, called by the stake president or sometimes one of the councilors in the stake presidency, and he is the top leader of all ward or branch mission leaders in each ward/branch. Huh? Mission presidents are called and set apart by a "[m]ember of the First Presidency or Quorum of the Twelve" (source). I'm not sure what calling you are thinking of, but mission presidents aren't stake officers. 2
JAHS Posted June 2, 2021 Author Posted June 2, 2021 6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I don’t deny it’s still useful. But the reliability (for me, anyway) is enhanced if I know it’s from an up-to-date publication. The Church handbook these days is updated online with a frequency of not years but months. Use of a discontinued term (by several years) cries out to me “outdated.” Are you sure there’s not something comparable to your quote in the current Church handbook? I don't see anything of that detail in the Church Handbook. Perhaps the Branch Presidency handbooks are only given to or referred to when a Branch President is called.
Jamie Posted June 2, 2021 Posted June 2, 2021 (edited) 16 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Mission president is not a stake calling. It is a calling issued by the First Presidency of the Church. Unless you are referring to the calling of stake mission president, and I don’t think that calling exists anymore. There are no longer “stake missions.” Ward missionaries (formerly called stake missionaries) are today called by and under the leadership of the bishopric, including the ward mission leader. Ah, okay, I was just trying to use an example of another stake calling to compare to that of a bishop/branch president and I had in my mind the old calling of stake mission president. Now I'm recognizing that a mission president is called by either an apostle or member of the First Presidency and has the same keys as a bishop/branch president in regards to the administration of the gospel, with the bishop/branch president also having additional keys that a mission president does not have in regards his specific ward area. So the question I usually ask to determine who presides in an area is to ask who has the higher keys in that area and whose calling required higher keys for that appointment. Which is how I arrive at understanding a bishop/branch president would preside in a meeting with a mission president in attendance. Edited June 2, 2021 by Jamie
The Nehor Posted June 5, 2021 Posted June 5, 2021 Quote Baptismal services for converts should be scheduled as soon as they have met the qualifications in 38.2.3.3. Baptism of a family member should not be delayed until a father can receive the priesthood and perform the baptism himself. Under the bishopric’s guidance, the ward mission leader (if one is called) or the member of the elders quorum presidency who leads missionary work in the ward plans and conducts baptismal services for converts. - Handbook
2BizE Posted June 6, 2021 Posted June 6, 2021 If the ward or branch pertains to a stake, then it is bishops and stake leaders who preside. If the baptism is in a district or branch which pertains to a mission, then it is the mission president, elder appointed as branch president or Elder assigned by mission president who presides. That is my best guess.
Doctrine 612 Posted June 7, 2021 Posted June 7, 2021 Depending on who is being baptized a convert then mp an child of record the bishop also depending on which ward is assigned that day, but usually the bishop of the child being baptized. i
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