JAHS Posted May 30, 2021 Posted May 30, 2021 The question of who presides comes up sometimes at certain church meetings. Specifically if a new convert is being baptized and the Mission president happens to be at the baptism service, does he preside or is it the Stake President/Bishop who preside? What if there is not a stake organized in the area and the baptism occurs in a branch? Does the mission president preside or the Branch President? The handbook says "The mission president holds the priesthood keys for baptizing converts in a mission." but it does not specify under what circumstances he would preside at the baptism service.
Duncan Posted May 30, 2021 Posted May 30, 2021 The Bishop/Branch President presides. if it's a combined ward baptism, for some reason, a Stake Presidency IIRC, presides. You would acknowledge the Mission President of course but they don't preside. 4
Scott Lloyd Posted May 30, 2021 Posted May 30, 2021 3 minutes ago, Duncan said: The Bishop/Branch President presides. if it's a combined ward baptism, for some reason, a Stake Presidency IIRC, presides. You would acknowledge the Mission President of course but they don't preside. I agree with this post. But I wonder why you used the pronoun “they” in reference to a mission president. It’s not a matter of an indeterminate gender, since the mission president will always be male. It would be like referring to a Relief Society president as “they”. 1
JAHS Posted May 30, 2021 Author Posted May 30, 2021 11 minutes ago, Duncan said: The Bishop/Branch President presides. if it's a combined ward baptism, for some reason, a Stake Presidency IIRC, presides. You would acknowledge the Mission President of course but they don't preside. This is probably correct but I wonder, if the Mission President holds the keys for baptizing converts, why would he not preside over the baptism? 1
Chum Posted May 30, 2021 Posted May 30, 2021 12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: But I wonder why you used the pronoun “they” in reference to a mission president. It’s not a matter of an indeterminate gender, since the mission president will always be male. It would be like referring to a Relief Society president as “they”. Because MPs are more remote and unfamiliar than RSPs, I'm more inclined to think of them in the aggregate, which invites the plural use of 'they'. 1
Duncan Posted May 30, 2021 Posted May 30, 2021 31 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I agree with this post. But I wonder why you used the pronoun “they” in reference to a mission president. It’s not a matter of an indeterminate gender, since the mission president will always be male. It would be like referring to a Relief Society president as “they”. oh, just a generic term "they" to refer to anyone serving as a mission president. I wasn't thinking of a specific person as in one specific mission president going to all the world's baptismal services!
Duncan Posted May 30, 2021 Posted May 30, 2021 26 minutes ago, JAHS said: This is probably correct but I wonder, if the Mission President holds the keys for baptizing converts, why would he not preside over the baptism? because it's a ward function and the ward is involved, the F/T missionary teaching, interviewing aspect is now over and passes on the torch so to speak at the baptism to the ward. Obviously there is a lot of blending of helping new converts but generally speaking 3
Amulek Posted May 30, 2021 Posted May 30, 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, JAHS said: Specifically if a new convert is being baptized and the Mission president happens to be at the baptism service, does he preside or is it the Stake President/Bishop who preside? The Stake President / Bishop presides because he holds the keys for missionary work in his stake / ward. The mission president holds keys for the work of missionaries. Just because the mission president holds the keys to authorize the baptism to take place doesn't mean that he likewise holds keys to preside over units within his mission. Edited May 31, 2021 by Amulek
Scott Lloyd Posted May 30, 2021 Posted May 30, 2021 54 minutes ago, Duncan said: oh, just a generic term "they" to refer to anyone serving as a mission president. I wasn't thinking of a specific person as in one specific mission president going to all the world's baptismal services! Rereading your sentence now, I can see that it’s fine as you have written it, I.e., “You would acknowledge the Mission President of course but they [referring to mission presidents in general] don't preside.” 1
Scott Lloyd Posted May 30, 2021 Posted May 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Chum said: Because MPs are more remote and unfamiliar than RSPs, I'm more inclined to think of them in the aggregate, which invites the plural use of 'they'. Duncan’s explanation works; yours doesn’t. Whenever the antecedent is a determinate gender (specifically male or specifically female) there’s no reason not to apply conventional grammar. A mission president will always be male, so whenever you refer to an individual mission president (not mission presidents in the aggregate), it is proper to use the he/him pronouns. 2
JAHS Posted May 30, 2021 Author Posted May 30, 2021 40 minutes ago, Amulek said: The Steak President / Bishop presides because he holds the keys for missionary work in his stake / ward. The mission president holds keys for the work of missionaries. Just because the mission president holds the keys to authorize the baptism to take place doesn't mean that he likewise holds keys to preside over units within his mission. Here are directions that were put in place during the pandemic Baptisms and Confirmations "Baptisms and confirmations require the approval of a priesthood leader with the appropriate keys. When needed, baptismal services may proceed with as few as four people: the baptismal candidate, the priest or Melchizedek Priesthood holder performing the baptism, and two witnesses. A baptism is performed under the authorization of a bishop or mission president who holds the necessary priesthood keys. The bishop or mission president or someone they designate (who could be one of the witnesses) must observe and document the baptism and confirmation. If necessary, the person granting the authorization may do so remotely using technology. Leaders, family, and friends may observe remotely using technology but should not make a video or audio recording. When sacrament meetings are temporarily suspended, converts may be confirmed immediately after the baptism." (June 11, 2020) In the case of only 4 people present case I guess whoever the priesthood holder is can preside.
Chum Posted May 30, 2021 Posted May 30, 2021 56 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Duncan’s explanation works; yours doesn’t. Sure it does. As the universally recognized authority of My Own Head, my understanding of how I think is unquestionably expert.
Kenngo1969 Posted May 30, 2021 Posted May 30, 2021 4 hours ago, Amulek said: The Steak President [sic] / Bishop presides ... Damn, now I'm hungry! 1
secondclasscitizen Posted May 30, 2021 Posted May 30, 2021 There was a time when four elders with a soccer ball presided over baptisms or so I heard. seriously it shouldn’t be this hard to figure out.
Scott Lloyd Posted May 31, 2021 Posted May 31, 2021 7 hours ago, Chum said: Sure it does. As the universally recognized authority of My Own Head, my understanding of how I think is unquestionably expert. Ahab, is that you?
Scott Lloyd Posted May 31, 2021 Posted May 31, 2021 4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: Damn, now I'm hungry! I did my internship at the Las Vegas Review-Journal back in ‘79. One of my beats was North Las Vegas city government, so I became rather well acquainted with the city manager at that time. When he learned I was a Latter-day Saint, he shared with me a story on himself that he thought was hilarious. He spoke of one of our local Church leaders who was inquiring into the process to get a zoning permit to build a “stake house.” The city manager innocently suggested, “If you want to build a steakhouse, you ought to look at some of that choice property down by the freeway where you could catch the tourists.” 2
Amulek Posted May 31, 2021 Posted May 31, 2021 7 hours ago, JAHS said: In the case of only 4 people present case I guess whoever the priesthood holder is can preside. I think maybe it would help if we distinguish between baptism as an ordinance and a baptismal service which is a meeting. You can have a baptism without a meeting, in which case nobody is technically presiding - you are just performing an ordinance. But if you are having a meeting in a ward, then the Bishop of the ward would preside over that meeting were he to attend. Likewise for the stake president. But not the mission president; he doesn't have authority to preside over the units within the geographical bounds of his mission. He only has the authority to preside over the missionaries in that area. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted May 31, 2021 Posted May 31, 2021 1 hour ago, Amulek said: I think maybe it would help if we distinguish between baptism as an ordinance and a baptismal service which is a meeting. You can have a baptism without a meeting, in which case nobody is technically presiding - you are just performing an ordinance. But if you are having a meeting in a ward, then the Bishop of the ward would preside over that meeting were he to attend. Likewise for the stake president. But not the mission president; he doesn't have authority to preside over the units within the geographical bounds of his mission. He only has the authority to preside over the missionaries in that area. This is true except where there are no stakes but only branches and member mission districts within the mission. Then, the mission president does preside over member meetings.
JAHS Posted May 31, 2021 Author Posted May 31, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: This is true except where there are no stakes but only branches and member mission districts within the mission. Then, the mission president does preside over member meetings. Yes well there's where my confusion lies. Earlier you agreed with Duncan when he said Branch presidents preside. Others will also say it is the Branch president who presides over the baptism services. Of course the mission president most likely rarely actually attends baptisms in a mission. Edited May 31, 2021 by JAHS
The Nehor Posted May 31, 2021 Posted May 31, 2021 The keys to baptize converts (anyone over the age of 8 who wants baptism lies with the mission president. The Bishop cannot authorize a baptism for such a person unless given that permission (this happens in areas with no missionaries). Baptismal services are conducted by the ward assuming there is a ward. A bishop or bishopric member presides at the baptismal service if present but the Mission President holds the keys to allow it to happen. In the odd situation where there is a dispute it would be resolved at a higher level where the keys meet up (Area Presidency).
Chum Posted May 31, 2021 Posted May 31, 2021 12 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Ahab, is that you? I get that a lot here. 1
Amulek Posted May 31, 2021 Posted May 31, 2021 11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: This is true except where there are no stakes but only branches and member mission districts within the mission. Then, the mission president does preside over member meetings. I assumed we were talking about the general rule (e.g., here in the US / Canada). But yes, where the church has no organized stakes the mission president serves as the presiding high priest for the area, so he could indeed preside under those circumstances.
JAHS Posted May 31, 2021 Author Posted May 31, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Amulek said: 12 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: This is true except where there are no stakes but only branches and member mission districts within the mission. Then, the mission president does preside over member meetings. I assumed we were talking about the general rule (e.g., here in the US / Canada). But yes, where the church has no organized stakes the mission president serves as the presiding high priest for the area, so he could indeed preside under those circumstances. OK. I found a statement from the church that clarifies this: "The branch president presides at sacrament meetings, priesthood meetings, and other branch meetings he attends, unless a member of the district or mission presidency, an Area Authority Seventy, or a General Authority is present. The branch president invites these visiting, presiding authorities to sit on the stand. He makes an earnest effort to ensure that all meetings and activities help members come unto Christ." I assume "other branch meetings" includes baptism services. Edited May 31, 2021 by JAHS 1
Scott Lloyd Posted May 31, 2021 Posted May 31, 2021 2 hours ago, JAHS said: OK. I found a statement from the church that clarifies this: "The branch president presides at sacrament meetings, priesthood meetings, and other branch meetings he attends, unless a member of the district or mission presidency, an Area Authority Seventy, or a General Authority is present. The branch president invites these visiting, presiding authorities to sit on the stand. He makes an earnest effort to ensure that all meetings and activities help members come unto Christ." I assume "other branch meetings" includes baptism services. That statement is dated in at least one respect: The term “Area Authority Seventy” has been discontinued. That office is now called “Area Seventy”. I would feel more confident in this if you could find a quote that states the same thing but is from the current Church handbook.
Scott Lloyd Posted May 31, 2021 Posted May 31, 2021 18 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Ahab, is that you? 5 hours ago, Chum said: I get that a lot here. So what is the answer?
Recommended Posts