Addressing lgbtq+ prior to coming out

[Tacenda]

[california boy]

At age 12, my whole world view was a culture where every movie, every television show, every novel, every history story every taught me only portrayed relationships between a man and a woman.  I grew up in a church that only talked about relationships between men and women.  There was never any discussion at the time about even the idea that two men could be attracted to each other.  I literally had no reference for being attracted to someone of my own sex. 

That year, our scout troop had a snow outing.  We stayed at a cabin of one of the members.  All day we slid down the hill, had snowball fights and built snow fortresses.  As the sun started to set, and the temperature dropped, we all headed back to the cabin freezing cold to dry out.  We stripped off all our wet clothes down to our underwear and hung them by the fireplace to dry.  Us boys went to one of the bedrooms away from the adults.  To my surprise, one of the scouts brought out a Playboy. (quite a surprise since this was a Church outing). All the scouts were gathered around as pages were turned showing breasts of beautiful women.  Every scout seemed so excited to see something like this except me.  I had no interest in seeing a naked woman.  There was nothing sexually stimulating about it for me.  I couldn't even understand why all the boys were so excited to see something like that.  It was very confusing.  But the other boys in their underwear definitely got me going.  I pretended that because we shouldn't be looking at such pictures, I left the room and went to where the adults were.  The truth is, I was confronted directly for the first time that I had a strong attraction to the same sex and had no interest in the opposite sex.  It scared me that I was not like all those other boys.  What was wrong with me?  Perhaps they were just pretending to be turned on by those naked photos.  But in my heart, that day, I realized that I was somehow different than all my friends.  

Over the next couple of years, that conclusion only strengthened and became more clear.  What was never clear was what I should do about it other than to do everything I could to try and change those feelings.  During those teen years, I found out why I was not like all those other boys.  I was gay.  I struggled and fought that truth for all those years, even going on a mission for the sole reason that I thought that when I died, I would stand before God and he would condemn me to hell for being gay.  I hoped that I could at least say, does giving up 2 years of my life serving you grant me any leniency?  After my mission, as you know, I entering into a marriage with the false promise that if I did, those feelings would go away.  For me, there has never been any sexual fluidity that you speak about that included any attraction or connection.  Yes someone who is gay can have sex with someone of the opposite sex, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they feel the same about that act as someone who is straight.  

Does that help at all to answer your question?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

Part 1:  Assume this boy was born with an heterosexual orientation

I see a ton of problems in trying to address this scenario, but let’s start here. Sexuality is incredibly diverse (see David’s post linked above). We know it has both genetic and environmental components. I’d expect some of those environmental components to be present in utero. Many others likely play out in puberty. When people say “I was born this way” in regards to any characteristic (intelligence, Height, sexuality, levels of anxiety) I’m not sure they mean in a literal sense. I think it’s meant more in the lines of I didn’t choose this. Or perhaps this is outside of my ability to change. We always hear that things are a mix of genes and environment. Thing is, modern research shows “environment” is mostly made up of subtle often random influences outside our control. 
 

So I guess the question is, what do you mean “born with an heterosexual orientation”

 

If i were to try and take a stab at the question anyway, I’d say we have absolutely no idea our way to predict how his sexuality will progress other than to say if we asked him he’d likely say he didn’t “choose” any of it. 
 

ETA: I do see you included this caveat: “for those who believe people are born with their sexual orientation and it does not and cannot change”

 It’s possible there are people out there saying this, but to me it seems like a straw man. Homophobic people for generations have been pushing the narrative that homosexuality is a choice. Advocates respond that they were born or made that way. I don’t know that anyone that has thought about it means it in a literal sense. Only that as I said above it’s a non chosen immutable aspect of themselves. Others may experience a more fluid sexuality (also outside their choosing or control), but this doesn’t negate another’s non-fluidity. 

Edited June 13, 2021 by SeekingUnderstanding

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I really struggle with anyone who tries to use the animal kingdom as a guide for what Heavenly Father approves of.  I mean, there are animals that abandon their young at birth.  Others that literally eat their young.  Most animals are promiscuous with no sense of consent.  Some male animals seek out the young to kill them so they can then mate with their mothers.  Most males abandon their offspring and allow the mother to raise it alone.  Fathers mate with daughters, mothers with sons.  Killing others for sport or competition is the norm.   Etc., etc., etc.

No one should ever look to the animal kingdom to gauge what God expects of His sons and daughters.  It's one of those arguments that sounds reasonable at first glance but if you spend even a minute thinking about it, it falls apart quicker than jello nailed to a wall.

[Peacefully]

11 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I really struggle with anyone who tries to use the animal kingdom as a guide for what Heavenly Father approves of.  I mean, there are animals that abandon their young at birth.  Others that literally eat their young.  Most animals are promiscuous with no sense of consent.  Some male animals seek out the young to kill them so they can then mate with their mothers.  Most males abandon their offspring and allow the mother to raise it alone.  Fathers mate with daughters, mothers with sons.  Killing others for sport or competition is the norm.   Etc., etc., etc.

No one should ever look to the animal kingdom to gauge what God expects of His sons and daughters.  It's one of those arguments that sounds reasonable at first glance but if you spend even a minute thinking about it, it falls apart quicker than jello nailed to a wall.

I agree that we cannot take the analogy too far. Perhaps it is just a jumping off point for attempting to broaden our view of human sexuality. It’s not binary and there are examples in the animal kingdom that show us the myriad of ways Gods creatures have developed. Why would we think human sexuality would be so black and white?

Edited June 13, 2021 by Peacefully

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

I agree that we cannot take the analogy too far. Perhaps it is just a jumping off point for attempting to broaden our view of human sexuality. It’s not binary and there are examples in the animal kingdom that show us the myriad of ways Gods creatures have developed. Why would we think human sexuality would be so black and white?

Good point.  I think this is a great way to learn to value lgbtq+ people.  Using the animal kingdom to argue that God accepts every kind of sexual behavior doesn't work, but I agree that it can be used to argue that God loves and values every kind of sexual orientation.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I really struggle with anyone who tries to use the animal kingdom as a guide for what Heavenly Father approves of.  I mean, there are animals that abandon their young at birth.  Others that literally eat their young.  Most animals are promiscuous with no sense of consent.  Some male animals seek out the young to kill them so they can then mate with their mothers.  Most males abandon their offspring and allow the mother to raise it alone.  Fathers mate with daughters, mothers with sons.  Killing others for sport or competition is the norm.   Etc., etc., etc.

No one should ever look to the animal kingdom to gauge what God expects of His sons and daughters.  It's one of those arguments that sounds reasonable at first glance but if you spend even a minute thinking about it, it falls apart quicker than jello nailed to a wall.

Well, it popped up on FB so I immediately posted it here, I guess I liked what it said as far as how humans are so intrinsic like the animals, and insects, plants etc. I might add, the list goes on. That's how I believe there has to be a creator, I just can't see how evolution is the only way we were created or the big bang theory.

[Hamba Tuhan]

14 hours ago, california boy said:

All the scouts were gathered around as pages were turned showing breasts of beautiful women.  Every scout seemed so excited to see something like this except me.  I had no interest in seeing a naked woman.  There was nothing sexually stimulating about it for me.  I couldn't even understand why all the boys were so excited to see something like that.  It was very confusing.

I'm 100 per cent with you on this one, mate!

Of course, I grew up in a world where female breasts were something I saw pretty much on a daily basis: at home, at other people's homes, at church, etc.

And in fact, there are tens of millions of boys and young men who still live in similar contexts, and, like us, they aren't suffering in some terrible state of perpetual sexual excitement. This was common for much of the world's history until quite recently.

This fact underscores two important points: 1) males are not born with an innate sexualisation of the female body, and 2) this phenomenon is culturally determined. This then raises interesting questions about what had inculcated that excitement in the boys you knew, and the answer is almost certainly quite complex.

By the way, the Church clearly teaches us to reject the cultural mainstream on these points. From chapter 5 of its A Parent's Guide:

Quote

It is the world that makes the divinely created body an object of carnal lust. For example, it makes the female breasts primarily into sexual enticements, while the truth is that they were intended to nourish and comfort children. It promotes male sexual aggression in contrast to Christ’s example of tenderness, long-suffering, kindness, and steadfastness in the home.

 

[CV75]

On 6/13/2021 at 12:52 AM, Peacefully said:

David A. Facebook post:

I like to keep to myself but also thought this was important to share because I know so many other people from religious upbringings feel the same way. I’ve been open to myself and my close family for some years now that I am not sure about my own sexuality. I came out in 2014 as gay to my family. But then I learned I somewhat have similar feelings for both men and women so identify as being bisexual. I’m still trying to figure things out as  I also have learned I don’t have as many sexual desires and urges as most people 💀 which works i guess because I have a commitment to save myself for marriage 🤣. Which people call asexual when they don’t experience sexual urges. There are people experiencing the same feelings of being LGBTQIA+, (i know that’s a lot of letters that a lot of people don’t understand, but there are a lot of unique experiences people feel and live that make them feel isolated and alone that are represented) a lot of them wrestling to follow their beliefs that are so important to them as I have. Idk what to make of it and I don’t have all the answers. I just invite you to please consider making room to be more understanding and compassionate to those who are LGBTQIA+, and those who are a part of that community and trying to find that balance with their faith which also is a huge part of their identity like myself. I think we can do better as people of faith and Christians, including Latter-day Saints, to listen more to the wrestle between being LGBTQIA+ and a person of faith. There are more than you may realize going through that wrestle after all the misunderstandings that come with it. I don’t think it should come down to feeling you have to accept one or the other. For me to find peace the reality has been to accept both are real things I experience and make who I am. I’ve yet to figure out what that means but I appreciate you listening to this personal matter. Again I don’t feel comfortable sharing it, but felt I needed to to bring more awareness to people in my same situation and let you know you’re not alone. You can be part of the LGBTQIA+ community and still believe in God and His gospel plan. And people who don’t experience what’s outside of the norm being just heterosexual I just plead that you be more understanding to people who experience and struggle with things that you may not experience and understand yourself. I’ve tried for almost 20 years to try and change myself until I realized God made me how I am for a purpose. And instead of hating what I have considered wrong I need to see why God loved me for who I am and that it’s not just sexuality. So many other traits of who I am come from how I’ve been created. If other people choose to live differently than what you’ve been raised to believe is right, please have compassion because it’s most likely been an exhausting journey for them to be ok with the feelings they have and never have been able to change. Perhaps they weren’t supposed to try and change the way they were created to be. Even if you’re left with so many more questions with faith and sexuality like me I believe being open to both questions and to faith is how we receive answers. God blesses those who ask. So let’s keep asking and seeking, and having compassion and patience. Thank you for listening.  🙏

(RE: Bolded part): While it is natural for people who struggle to seek and ostensibly find a cosmic or divine reason/purpose for the way they are. I strongly believe, from experience, that sometimes -- and I think most often -- there is none. God placed us in a telestial condition where chaos and chance prevail. So you're born with x-y-z. But where there is no reason, there is still deliverance and redemption by virtue of the Atonement of Christ. Maybe that is all we need -- the terrible experience (D&C 122:7) -- to experience the ultimate deliverance and redemption.

Not every explanation for trial by fire has to be an influence for the Church to change.

[katherine the great]

On 6/13/2021 at 11:38 AM, bluebell said:

Most animals are promiscuous with no sense of consent. 

Not true. I agree with much of the rest of your post though. 😊