Status of church

[pogi]

1 hour ago, secondclasscitizen said:

I guess i am the only one left in the world who thinks the masks are ineffective. Yep me right here.

No, you are not the only one.  That is the problem.  I am serious though, when it comes to the medical field, show me any medical institution that doesn't agree.  I don't care what you and other science/medicine deniers think. 

Do you disagree that there is consensus in medicine on masks/vaccines?  

Again, who are you listening to?  Seriously.  Who are you taking your cues from.  What is your foundation. I honestly want to  know. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by pogi

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Respiratory viruses never disappear, right? Every year we get the flu shot that is built to anticipate whatever flavor or variant  is expected to pop up during flu season, but still thousands die of the flu each year. Viruses are go into to do what viruses do.  Don’t you think COVID is now permanently in the mix?

Yes. It is permanently in the mix. 

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Oh. I did not take that personally, KG. I was just thinking of the irony of having just fled the ever-deteriorating Seattle area for the hills of Kentucky. 🙂 While I would never wish such destruction on anyone (I grew up in Los Alamos, NM, just after WW2), it does give me occasion to say “Hmmmmmm.” Sodom and Gomorrah 2021? 🤪

Yes, it does make one wonder, doesn't it?

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

I would be honored to fiddle a tune or two…..no charge!

I'll look forward to it!    If it's not too much in-real-life information, whence do you hail in the Bluegrass State?

Edited August 16, 2021 by Kenngo1969

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Respiratory viruses never disappear, right?

Not exactly.  Small pox and polio were both respiratory viruses. 

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

 Every year we get the flu shot that is built to anticipate whatever flavor or variant  is expected to pop up during flu season, but still thousands die of the flu each year. Viruses are go into to do what viruses do.  Don’t you think COVID is now permanently in the mix?

COVID is likely going to become endemic, persistently present but controlled, unless we come up with a vaccine that targets all strains and is sterilizing - meaning one can't transmit the virus if they are vaccinated.  Before Delta, there was some hope of that possibility.     That doesn't mean that we can't end the pandemic through vaccination and masks.   We don't need to live in perpetual hospital overload.  Just because it may never completely go away doesn't mean we should give up on preventative measures, or that can't control it and significantly reduce the burden of the disease. 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by pogi

[secondclasscitizen]

8 hours ago, Emily said:

I am beyond puzzled when anti-vaccers pipe up with the, "It's my life, my health, you've got no right to judge me for my personal decisions..." argument. I really wonder if they actually believe what they are saying. How could they possibly believe it?

If they catch Covid and spread it to even one other person, they become the vector that will eventually kill someone. They have also given the virus extra time to mutate into new and potentially more virulent versions of the virus. Those two thoughts alone should get anyone who cares squat about their fellow human beings down to the nearest Vaccine center.

But let's say they don't get a mild case and they are part of the unlucky percentage that gets seriously ill. (And the Delta variant kills healthy young adults, not just sick, old people.)

If they catch Covid and go to a hospital, they use up a bed that another, seriously ill patient could have used. They stress out nurses and doctors who are then incapable of giving decent care to other patients. They raise insurance costs for everyone. They use up limited medical supplies.

Case in point: My father has heart disease. He had to go to the hospital last week, his left lung was full of fluid. He had to wait on a gurney in a hallway for over two hours - until he got back a test confirming he did not have Covid. After that, he was parked in an overflow wing that was basically a series of long, uncarpeted hallways with curtains. The whole wing was stuffed full of patients, with only a few nurses available and a handful of aids. We asked if he would eventually be moved to an actual hospital room (it was so noisy, he couldn't sleep) and we were told no.

They had the infectious Covid patients in all of the actual rooms, so the doors could be kept closed. Non-infectious patients, including heart patients, stroke patients, accident patients, were being stacked in these curtained alcoves with the kind of portable monitoring equipment that is usually only used temporarily in ambulances.

All those Covid patients could have been at home, with minimal to no symptoms, if they'd simply taken the time to get a vaccine. 

So no, it's not just about your life/your choice, those of you who are choosing to remain unvaccinated. You are directly impacting other people just as surely as if you took a gun and started shooting it into the air in the middle of a residential neighborhood. Maybe the falling bullets won't hit you, or anyone else, but shooting a gun into the air is still a very stupid thing to do.

A vaccinated individual spreads the virus as well. Everyone needs to lock themselves inside until this goes away:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/29/cdc-mask-guidance/

[secondclasscitizen]

27 minutes ago, pogi said:

No, you are not the only one.  That is the problem.  I am serious though, when it comes to the medical field, show me any medical institution that doesn't agree.  I don't care what you and other science/medicine deniers think. 

Do you disagree that there is consensus in medicine on masks/vaccines?  

Again, who are you listening to?  Seriously.  Who are you taking your cues from.  What is your foundation. I honestly want to  know. 

My foundation is I followed masking protocols and still do at work as it is compulsory there. I got COVID already maybe even twice because I had the exact same illness in December 2019 before we knew what it was. I got it despite wearing a mask and following the rules. The mask did not work for me therefore I have a bit of difficulty being convinced it does anything. 
 

completely  insane I know but hey I’m the stupid one here or so some say. 
 

No one is stopping you from wearing a mask. Give me your address and I’ll have Amazon send you a hundred masks. 

[Bernard Gui]

34 minutes ago, pogi said:

Not exactly.  Small pox and polio were both respiratory viruses. 
 

If they only have human hosts, right?

34 minutes ago, pogi said:

COVID is likely going to become endemic, persistently present but controlled, unless we come up with a vaccine that targets all strains and is sterilizing - meaning one can't transmit the virus if they are vaccinated.  Before Delta, there was some hope of that possibility.     That doesn't mean that we can't end the pandemic through vaccination and masks.   We don't need to live in perpetual hospital overload.  Just because it may never completely go away doesn't mean we should give up on preventative measures, or that can't control it and significantly reduce the burden of the disease. 

Of course. But this is not the message we are being given. Lambda is lurking in the wings just waiting to pounce. I can’t wait for Phi, Khi, and Psi! 

.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[secondclasscitizen]

1 hour ago, Metis_LDS said:

I will try to add something. If someone says to me I was wearing a mask and caught Covid anyway I would say 2 things.  The doctor who first detected Covid in china said you can also get infected by exposure of the eyes.  Second the news in the UK now says fully vaccinated persons can spread Delta Covid.  So this may go a long way in explaining the power of Delta.                                                                   

So to be really clear some fully vaccinated people are getting Covid in the UK and they become spreaders.  If you do not live alone you may get covid from those you live with even if they are fully vaccinated.  I am not an anti vax person.  My whole family is vaccinated,  but now it seems there are always odds at play.

Yep hence the mask being not of much use. This suit apparently works pretty well though:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_pressure_personnel_suit

[Bernard Gui]

24 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I'll look forward to it!    If it's not too much in-real-life information, whence do you hail in the Bluegrass State?

Richmond, home of the Eastern Kentucky University Colonels. One of the brothers in our stake owns the Stringbean Memorial Bluegrass Festival. I had the honor of jamming with some of his neighbors and him up in McKee.They are incredible self-taught musicians...the Real McCoy, as it were. We’re going to do it again. 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, secondclasscitizen said:

You obviously have not been in the military. Most of them just parrot the directive from above .. you know those who are safely ensconced behind concrete walls and who have never personally led a platoon (most important maneuver formation and most complicated to lead) in combat. Many don’t have the experience doing it yet by virtue of rank and title are automatically assumed to be an expert.

Yep. A know-it-all new lieutenant wreaked havoc with my son Reversissimo’s platoon in Kandahar.

[secondclasscitizen]

5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yep. A know-it-all new lieutenant wreaked havoc with my son Reversissimo’s platoon in Kandahar.

Good chance the lot was following his boss’ orders. 
 

combT outpost leaving is a classic example of the stupidity of colonels and generals

[Bernard Gui]

I have listened to and talked with numerous doctors who say masks are ineffective. Are they wrong?

These are the Mayo Clinic’s mask guidelines, very similar to the CDC. I don’t know anyone who follows them. I remember earlier warnings that not following the guidelines can make wearing a mask more dangerous than not wearing a mask.  My SIL has a degree in infectious diseases and she observed the guidelines scrupulously, but she and her husband contracted COVID. 

Quote

Proper use, storage and cleaning of masks also affects how well they protect you. Follow these steps for putting on and taking off your mask:

• Wash or sanitize your hands before and after putting on your mask.
• Place your mask over your mouth and nose and chin.
• Tie it behind your head or use ear loops. Make sure it's snug.
• Don't touch your mask while wearing it.
• If you accidentally touch your mask, wash or sanitize your hands.
• If your mask becomes wet or dirty, switch to a clean one. Put the used mask in a sealable bag until you can get rid of it or wash it.
• Remove the mask by untying it or lifting off the ear loops without touching the front of the mask or your face.
• Wash your hands immediately after removing your mask.
• Regularly wash cloth masks in the washing machine or by hand. (They can be washed along with other laundry.)

And don't forget these precautions:

• Don't put masks on anyone who has trouble breathing or is unconscious or otherwise unable to remove the mask without help.
• Don't put masks on children under 2 years of age.
• Don't use face masks as a substitute for physical distancing.

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Metis_LDS]

15 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

 My SIL has a degree in infectious diseases and she observed the guidelines scrupulously, but she and her husband contracted COVID. 

I hope they recovered.

[pogi]

39 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

If they only have human hosts, right?

Right.  The concern is not so much that it is a respiratory virus, but there are other factors that make COVID less likely to go away, including mutation rate and animal hosts.   

42 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Of course. But this is not the message we are being given. Lambda is lurking in the wings just waiting to pounce. I can’t wait for Phi, Khi, and Psi! 

That is the message I am receiving in the medical field.  I don't know who you are listening to. 

[pogi]

48 minutes ago, secondclasscitizen said:

My foundation is I followed masking protocols and still do at work as it is compulsory there. I got COVID already maybe even twice because I had the exact same illness in December 2019 before we knew what it was. I got it despite wearing a mask and following the rules. The mask did not work for me therefore I have a bit of difficulty being convinced it does anything. 
 

completely  insane I know but hey I’m the stupid one here or so some say. 
 

No one is stopping you from wearing a mask. Give me your address and I’ll have Amazon send you a hundred masks. 

In other words, medical consensus is wrong because you got sick?

Let me guess, you were wearing a mask at family gatherings, church, friends houses, restaurants, etc.  too Right?  There is no possible way that you could have become infected while not wearing a mask in those situations?

Some people who wear seat belts die or get seriously injured too.  Won't stop me from wearing a seat belt!  They still work.  They are not perfect though. 

 

[pogi]

54 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I have listened to and talked with numerous doctors who say masks are ineffective. Are they wrong?

Of course they exist.  One of them is doctor who believes that sexual visitations by demons and alien DNA are at the root of American health concerns.   I only point this out in that suggesting that some doctors disagree doesn't say much.  What does the literature and consensus tell us?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/stella-immanuel-trumps-new-covid-doctor-believes-in-alien-dna-demon-sperm-and-hydroxychloroquine

They disagree with every medical institution in the US that I am aware of - those that publish and research and keep doctors up-to-date with best practice - the backbone of medicine in America.  

They are medical renegades, and are rare. 

Look at consensus.  Do you disagree that there is overwhelming consensus?

Edited August 16, 2021 by pogi

[Bernard Gui]

26 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

I hope they recovered.

Yes. They were quite ill but not hospitalized.

 

25 minutes ago, pogi said:

Right.  The concern is not so much that it is a respiratory virus, but there are other factors that make COVID less likely to go away, including mutation rate and animal hosts.   

That is the message I am receiving in the medical field.  I don't know who you are listening to. 

Like I said, doctors that I know. I believe they are in the medical field, but maybe they are quacks. I cited a recent published study on Lambda. Just the headline makes one quake in one’s boots. If that isn’t supposed to scare the bejeebers out of you, I don’t know what is.

This kind of reporting does not give much confidence…too many unknowns. I don’t think we are allowing virus to spread wily billy, though.
 

Quote

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/07/health/lambda-coronavirus-variant-wellness-explainer/index.html 

Poland called it playing "Russian roulette" to allow a virus to spread freely with no mitigations, such as wearing masks or getting vaccinated.

"We will continue to develop more and more variants, and eventually, one or more of these variants will learn how to evade vaccine-induced immunity," Poland said. "And if that's true, we will start all over again."

Do you know anyone who wears masks according to the guidelines? I don’t. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[gurn]

If masks are ineffective against the flu, why are they effective against COVID?

Nonpharmaceutical Measures for Pandemic Influenza in Nonhealthcare Settings—Personal Protective and Environmental Measures - Volume 26, Number 5—May 2020 - Emerging Infectious Diseases journal - CDC

 

"In pooled analysis, we found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks"

[Metis_LDS]

13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

If that isn’t supposed to scare the bejeebers out of you, I don’t know what is.

Yep I am going to cut down on my reading.  If covid does not get me the stress of knowing too much will.

[bluebell]

Nothing really different in my Utah ward yesterday.  They didn't even read the letter over the pulpit.  But we did have a handful of families wearing masks that didn't before.

*full disclosure, my family wasn't one of them.

[pogi]

41 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I don’t think we are allowing virus to spread wily billy, though.

A virus going wily billy is pretty much the definition of a pandemic.  We are no where close to doing what we can to control it and reduce the burden on hospitals. 

45 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Do you know anyone who wears masks according to the guidelines? I don’t. 

Very few people are perfect at following guidelines on proper teeth brushing either, I think it would be reckless to suggest that we just give up because few are perfect. 

Do you doubt the inspiration of the First Presidency and all that has been said by other apostles on masks?

[bluebell]

My mother said that when her bishop read the FP letter over the pulpit he also read a part that said that members were not to read more into the letter than it specifically says.  Did anyone else hear something similar or have a quote for that?

[rongo]

10 hours ago, Rain said:

@rongohoping the best for your Gila Bend people tonight.  The storm is sounding pretty rough over here. I hope they escape more damage.

We do, too. We're all on flash flood watch going into Tuesday. It isn't usually the local rainfall, either; it comes down the Santa Rosa and Santa Cruz washes from Mexico (ca. 150-200 miles away). Usually when the washes run, it means that it rained heavily in Mexico or Tucson.

Our city has running washes, too, but the city was planned and built so that houses won't get flooded. This required some engineering, and insurance companies won't insure if they are "in a floodplain." Sometimes, acts of God cause even precautions to fail, though, as people along the Mississippi or in hurricane country know (or Tornado Alley). 

The main concern right now is the ca. 1500 displaced/homeless people. Red Cross and our stake are on it (Gila Bend is about an hour away from us). 

[rongo]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

My mother said that when her bishop read the FP letter over the pulpit he also read a part that said that members were not to read more into the letter than it specifically says.  Did anyone else hear something similar or have a quote for that?

I think that was added by the stake president to be read. My parents' stake did something similar: read the FP letter, and then a brief letter from the SP asking for everyone to be kind to everyone, regardless of their stance on masks or vaccines. I think some leaders saw/felt the need to add context to the letter for their area. 

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, rongo said:

I think that was added by the stake president to be read. My parents' stake did something similar: read the FP letter, and then a brief letter from the SP asking for everyone to be kind to everyone, regardless of their stance on masks or vaccines. I think some leaders saw/felt the need to add context to the letter for their area. 

If this thread is any indication, those stake presidents were spot on.