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46 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Joseph's quote is boastful about him doing more doesn't sit too well:

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it.   I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.” —Joseph Smith, May 26, 1844, History of the Church, vol 6, pp. 408-409

Why?  It's true.

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1 hour ago, Teancum said:

in 1835 he had ones woman we know he had an affair with.  There is no record he married her nor is there evidence that the concept of eternal marriage was even known by Joseph.  It seems more likely Joseph invented polygamy as a defense of his affair when he got caught up in it.  The 1835 D&C taught monogamy. If Joseph really was being told to practice plural marriage at that time then the article on marriage it a lie. Plain a simple.

In 1835, even though the Melchizedek priesthood had been restored, the Church was operating very much on an Aaronic level.  The entire focus of the Church at that time was Aaronic.  As you say, no concept of eternal marriage.
It was even the study of the Old Testament that led Joseph to inquire about polygamy.

So I think it's safe to say when Joseph first attempted a polygamous relationship it was very much in the vein of ancient world polygamy - like David, Solomon, and the Law of Moses.  No concept of sealing keys or eternal marriage were necessary at that time.  According to the not always reliable Benjamin Johnson the marriage was performed by Fanny's father, Samuel Alger.  Either Benjamin outright lied about him performing the marriage or it was viewed as a marriage.

And the article on marriage (old D&C 101) was written and published by Oliver Cowdery and was based not on revelation but Church policy.  It has no reference to anything God ever said in revelation and was rightfully removed.

Edited by JLHPROF
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12 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

It's true though.  Who else has done more as far as saving ordinances and gospel revelation?

Personally, if I had to pick one person who has done more than any other to the benefit of mankind I'd probably choose Adam, but that's just me.

24 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Is no consideration given to the fact that at this point in time Joseph was under extreme duress, his enemies hounding him like bloodthirsty jackals? He knew he was very likely going to soon die a martyr’s death (he was killed one month later) and he was being understandably defiant in the face of his hate filled enemies who would soon murder him and his brother Hyrum. Under these circumstances, I can cut the prophet some slack.

And is it not of tremendous significance that as the prophet was about to die at the hands of the mob he requested John Taylor to sing that most humbling of of all hymns, ‘A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief,”’ over and over again? It’s always best to see things in balance rather than succumb to the temptation to analyze things out of balance because of a personal agenda driven by confirmation bias..

Through faith in Christ, I personally try to do draw nearer to God by striving to be more and more like him each day, yet I have those moments when, if taken in isolation, it would appear to the uncharitable that I’m a wicked man.

Really? I get that he was under stress, but that doesn't justify him making statements about doing more for mankind than any other person, or even that he's been able to keep a church together where Paul, John, Peter or even JESUS were unable. Again...really? That is extreme arrogance. Some say that pressure brings out the true nature of an individual and reveals their character, whether that be courage, kindness, or...arrogance. 

Even if it was true (which I don't believe it is) saying such things borders on sacrilegious. Joseph isn't justified simply because he was in a very tough spot.  

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1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Personally, if I had to pick one person who has done more than any other to the benefit of mankind I'd probably choose Adam, but that's just me.

Or Eve ;)

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4 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Personally, if I had to pick one person who has done more than any other to the benefit of mankind I'd probably choose Adam, but that's just me.

Well, you know my thoughts on Adam.  As far as I'm concerned the Savior reports to him (but let's not drag up Adam-God again).

4 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Really? I get that he was under stress, but that doesn't justify him making statements about doing more for mankind than any other person, or even that he's been able to keep a church together where Paul, John, Peter or even JESUS were unable. Again...really? That is extreme arrogance. Some say that pressure brings out the true nature of an individual and reveals their character, whether that be courage, kindness, or...arrogance. 

Even if it was true (which I don't believe it is) saying such things borders on sacrilegious. Joseph isn't justified simply because he was in a very tough spot.  

I think hyperbole was a part of life in that period.  Having read so many writings, journals, and sermons from Young, Kimball, Woodruff, Eliza R. Snow, and SO many others I honestly believe that's just the way they spoke.  Prone to exaggeration, full of poetry, and theatricality even.  I don't see that anyone can doubt for a second that Joseph worshiped his Savior.  And again, he was speaking truth, however boastfully.

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Just now, JLHPROF said:

Well, you know my thoughts on Adam.  As far as I'm concerned the Savior reports to him (but let's not drag up Adam-God again).

🤣😂

I think hyperbole was a part of life in that period.  Having read so many writings, journals, and sermons from Young, Kimball, Woodruff, Eliza R. Snow, and SO many others I honestly believe that's just the way they spoke.  Prone to exaggeration, full of poetry, and theatricality even.  I don't see that anyone can doubt for a second that Joseph worshiped his Savior.  And again, he was speaking truth, however boastfully.

You may be right about hyperbole but if that's the case there's really no problem with shooting it down and bringing it back to reality.

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1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

You may be right about hyperbole but if that's the case there's really no problem with shooting it down and bringing it back to reality.

It is the tone or the content that needs to be "shot down"?

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1 hour ago, Teancum said:

in 1835 he had ones woman we know he had an affair with.  There is no record he married her nor is there evidence that the concept of eternal marriage was even known by Joseph.  It seems more likely Joseph invented polygamy as a defense of his affair when he got caught up in it.  The 1835 D&C taught monogamy. If Joseph really was being told to practice plural marriage at that time then the article on marriage it a lie. Plain a simple.

While information about polygamy in the early 1830's is scant, there is evidence of the things you claim to have none.  Orson Pratt, Joseph B Noble and WW Phelps all speak of Joseph telling them of plural marriage in 1831 and 1832.  In addition, according to one source, Levi Hancock performed the marriage between Joseph and Fanny Alger.  Eliza Snow also said that Fanny Alger was married to Joseph.

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Just now, JLHPROF said:

It is the tone or the content that needs to be "shot down"?

Yes- the claim needs to be shot down. And in so doing there's nothing wrong with pointing out that the person making the claim is exaggerating, embellishing etc. It helps us know how much stock we should take in some of his other claims.

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Just now, T-Shirt said:

While information about polygamy in the early 1830's is scant, there is evidence of the things you claim to have none.  Orson Pratt, Joseph B Noble and WW Phelps all speak of Joseph telling them of plural marriage in 1831 and 1832.  In addition, according to one source, Levi Hancock performed the marriage between Joseph and Fanny Alger.  Eliza Snow also said that Fanny Alger was married to Joseph.

He had to have been. Otherwise it would have been a dirty, nasty affair. We couldn't have that ;) 

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4 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Yes- the claim needs to be shot down. And in so doing there's nothing wrong with pointing out that the person making the claim is exaggerating, embellishing etc. It helps us know how much stock we should take in some of his other claims.

I disagree.  The claim is true, no matter how boastfully it was spoken.

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On 3/31/2021 at 8:13 PM, JLHPROF said:
On 3/31/2021 at 6:01 PM, Teancum said:

I wonder if you give the same pass for other powerful religious sect male leaders who do polygamy. Or is Joseph just special?

He's definitely special.  He is second only to the Savior.

Joseph Smith taught that Michael the Archangel (Adam) was NEXT in authority to Jesus.  And that Gabriel (Noah) was next in authority to Michael.

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1 minute ago, longview said:

Joseph Smith taught that Michael the Archangel (Adam) was NEXT in authority to Jesus.  And that Gabriel (Noah) was next in authority to Michael.

I think you're referring to this quote, specifically the RED bolded part.

  • “The Priesthood was first given to Adam; he obtained the First Presidency, and held the keys of it from generation to generation. He obtained it in the Creation, before the world was formed, as in Gen. 1:26, 27, 28. He had dominion given him over every living creature. He is Michael the Archangel, spoken of in the Scriptures. Then to Noah, who is Gabriel; he stands next in authority to Adam in the Priesthood; he was called of God to this office, and was the father of all living in his day, and to him was given the dominion. These men held keys first on earth, and then in heaven."
    The Priesthood is an everlasting principle, and existed with God from eternity, and will to eternity, without beginning of days or end of years. The keys have to be brought from heaven whenever the Gospel is sent. When they are revealed from heaven, it is by Adam's authority.
    Daniel in his seventh chapter speaks of the Ancient of days; he means the oldest man, our Father Adam, Michael, he will call his children together and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man. He (Adam) is the father of the human family, and presides over the spirits of all men, and all that have had the keys must stand before him in this grand council. This may take place before some of us leave this stage of action. The Son of Man stands before him, and there is given him glory and dominion. Adam delivers up his stewardship to Christ, that which was delivered to him as holding the keys of the universe, but retains his standing as head of the human family
    The spirit of man is not a created being;  it existed from eternity, and will exist to eternity. Anything created cannot be eternal; and earth, water, etc., had their existence in an elementary state, from eternity. Our Savior speaks of children and says, Their angels always stand before my Father. The Father called all spirits before Him at the creation of man, and organized them. He (Adam) is the head, and was told to multiply. The keys were first given to him, and by him to others. He will have to give an account of his stewardship, and they to him.
    The Priesthood is everlasting. The Savior, Moses, and Elias, gave the keys to Peter, James and John, on the mount, when they were transfigured before him. The Priesthood is everlasting--without beginning of days or end of years; without father, mother, etc. If there is no change of ordinances there is no change of Priesthood. Wherever the ordinances of the Gospel are administered, there is the Priesthood.
    How have we come at the Priesthood in the last days? It came down, down, in regular succession. Peter, James, and John had it given to them and they gave it to others. Christ is the Great High Priest; Adam next. Paul speaks of the Church coming to an innumerable company of angels--to God the Judge of all the spirits of just men made perfect; to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant. (Hebrews 12:22-24.)

It's an interesting quote.
I find the BLUE bolded parts equally interesting.
It can either be read as Adam being subordinate to Christ.  OR as Adam bestowing Christ with the inheritance from the Father.
It is also interesting to see that priesthood keys are always restored by Adam's authority.

 

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29 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Well, you know my thoughts on Adam.  As far as I'm concerned the Savior reports to him (but let's not drag up Adam-God again).

 

I kind of like the Adam-God thing but I see it as reverse.  Adam reports to Jesus and Jesus directs Adam on what needs to occur on this earth and Adam sees that it is done.

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49 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I disagree.  The claim is true, no matter how boastfully it was spoken.

I thought you said it was hyperbole.

It's either true or hyperbole. It can't be both.

 

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1 hour ago, T-Shirt said:

Levi Hancock performed the marriage between Joseph and Fanny Alger.  Eliza Snow also said that Fanny Alger was married to Joseph.

It has been years since I've delved into this topic.  Not sure I knew that Levi Hancock preformed the marriage.  Did Oliver know that Fanny and Joseph had been married at the time when he referred to the "filthy affair?"  Or was he out of Joseph's circle at that time?

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1 hour ago, longview said:

Joseph Smith taught that Michael the Archangel (Adam) was NEXT in authority to Jesus.  And that Gabriel (Noah) was next in authority to Michael.

The name Adam is a very confusing one as its a common name that can be applied to many people in many different context.  God the Father can be called Adam.  Jesus can be called Adam.  Michael can be called Adam.  The billions upon billions of worlds that have been created had their own Adam and Eve story.  We are all called to become Adams.  Literally the name Adam can be applied to billions upon billions of individuals.  I believe what Brigham Young said in what is called the "Adam-God" theory to be correct but the way and words he used were poorly done by Brigham Young.  I don't fault him.  Often when I try to present something I believe to be true, I have a way of using the wrong words or phrases and it comes out to be a mess.   Brigham did what I commonly do.   So over time I have meshed what Brigham Young said to what the scriptures and what other prophets have said together to for it to make sense in my mind.  Rather than calling it the Adam-God doctrine or theory, I call it the Michael-God doctrine.  It goes like this.

Micheal was made Lord over the whole earth by the Father in the garden.  Michael to this day is still Lord over the whole earth.   All revelation, visitation by angels, answers through prayers are done basically by Michael or through Michael.  Michael is running the day to day show on this planet while the Father and Son are attending to other business.  Jesus did not personally send Moroni to Joseph Smith.  Jesus directed Michael to send Moroni and Michael personally directed Moroni to Joseph.  Michael is basically a central and common point man that most things at least gets passed through.   So when we directly deal with God today, we are basically dealing with Michael.   Those that die and enter the spirit world think they are seeing Jesus but they are seeing Michael who stands and represent Christ in the spirit world.  Michael will continue in this role of being Lord over the earth until he released from it when the rights over this earth are transferred from him to Christ at Adam-ondi-Ahman as presented in spoken of in Daniel.  Once the keys are transferred, Christ will official take hands on the wheel.  Thus the Second Coming can not happen until that important transfer at Adam-ondi-Ahman occur.

That is my take on the whole doctrine.  It makes sense to me and it fits everything that is said on the issue in my mind.

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6 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Micheal was made Lord over the whole earth by the Father in the garden.  Michael to this day is still Lord over the whole earth.   All revelation, visitation by angels, answers through prayers are done basically by Michael. Michael is running the day to day show on this planet while the Father and Son are attending to other business.  So when we directly deal with God today, we are basically dealing with Michael.   Those that die and enter the spirit world think they are seeing Jesus but they are seeing Michael who stands and represent Christ in the spirit world. 

Some interesting thoughts here.  You clearly give Michael/Adam the role of God the Father without actually considering him such.

Quote

Michael will continue in this role of being Lord over the earth until he released from it when the rights over this earth are transferred from him to Christ at Adam-ondi-Ahman as presented in spoken of in Daniel.  Once the keys are transferred, Christ will official take hands on the wheel.  Thus the Second Coming can not happen until that important transfer at Adam-ondi-Ahman occur.

It's that transfer from Michael/Adam to Christ that is the question here.
Christ inherits everything the Father has, he purchased us with his blood and we are literally his inheritance.  It's how he moves from being the Son to becoming the Father as the Book of Mormon states.

But this transfer at Adam-Ondi_Ahman describes the bestowal of this inheritance.  So is he inheriting the human family from Adam or from Heavenly Father?  (In my eyes and Brigham's it's the same thing).

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3 hours ago, Ipod Touch said:

Doesn't the D&C say that besides Jesus, Joseph Smith has done more for the salvation of man?  Even when I was a believer I thought that was a bit over-the-top.

It does say that and I suspect it is wrong. I don’t blame John Taylor for writing it though. He was probably pretty emotionally wrought after watching the prophet and his brother get murdered in front of him and I doubt he thought his written declaration about the event would end up being canonized. Then again, he might be right and depending on how you interpret the ‘done more for the salvation’ bit I can even see one reading where I would agree with him but meh, not a big deal.

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29 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Some interesting thoughts here.  You clearly give Michael/Adam the role of God the Father without actually considering him such.

Adam has whatever authority and role the Father gives him.   Since Adam is a name that can apply to different beings, I personally avoid the name Adam when discussing the issue as it creates confusion.   Christ does have everything BUT Michael was given a role as well. 

Daniel 7:13-14:  "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."

There has to be a reason Jesus is goes to the Ancient of Days or Michael to get something.  It is here that Christ is given power or keys to have "dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages."  Something is being transferred from Michael to Christ.  This something is not possessed by Christ before he comes.  The reasont he event occurs is so that Christ can come into possession of it.  Right now, this authority that Christ comes to obtain is currently in the hands of Adam or Michael.

 
 
Edited by carbon dioxide
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3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Joseph's quote is boastful about him doing more doesn't sit too well:

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it.   I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.” —Joseph Smith, May 26, 1844, History of the Church, vol 6, pp. 408-409

Not sure I agree with that one either. What about Enoch Joseph? What about Enoch?

He built ZIon. Then again it took him centuries and Joseph didn’t have that long so whatever. Those who take it that Joseph was claiming, in general, to be more successful than the Savior need to read more of what Joseph said and wrote. He was saying that in this specific way he was more successful and he was.

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3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It does say that and I suspect it is wrong. I don’t blame John Taylor for writing it though. He was probably pretty emotionally wrought after watching the prophet and his brother get murdered in front of him and I doubt he thought his written declaration about the event would end up being canonized. Then again, he might be right and depending on how you interpret the ‘done more for the salvation’ bit I can even see one reading where I would agree with him but meh, not a big deal.

This is how I have personally viewed the passage as well.

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1 minute ago, carbon dioxide said:

Daniel 7:13-14:  "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."

There has to be a reason Jesus is goes to the Ancient of Days or Michael to get something.  It is here that Christ is given power or keys to have "dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages."  Something is being transferred from Michael to Christ.  This something is not possessed by Christ before he comes.  The reason he event occurs is so that Christ can come into possession of it.  Right now, this authority that Christ comes to obtain is currently in the hands of Adam or Michael.

He's receiving his inheritance, the kingdom purchased with his blood.

  • "Adam delivers up his stewardship to Christ, that which was delivered to him as holding the keys of the universe, but retains his standing as head of the human family." - Joseph Smith

Adam receives all the dispensations of this earth from their dispensation heads.  He holds the keys of the universe and presides over this creation.
He then bestows this inheritance on Christ.
And we hope to become joint heirs.

  • "What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children." - Joseph Smith

That's what is happening with the Ancient of Days at Adam-Ondi-Ahman.

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