Hamba Tuhan Posted February 21, 2021 Posted February 21, 2021 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Well that's just it. What is described as revelation in the Church today is no longer unique to the Church. There is literally no difference in LDS claims of revelation comparative to any other Christian sect. With all due respect, I don’t think those who have left the Church are in a position to accurately describe the reality and nature of revelation in the Church. I have no clue what ‘spiritual revelation’ is meant to mean, but it doesn’t sound like the personal revelation that has characterised my membership and service in the Church of Jesus Christ from the beginning till now: actual interaction with a real Being who guides, teaches, directs and — importantly! — corrects. Once again, however, I’m struck by how in harmony ex-Mormonism and fundamentalist Mormonism seem to be. 4
JLHPROF Posted February 21, 2021 Posted February 21, 2021 34 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Once again, however, I’m struck by how in harmony ex-Mormonism and fundamentalist Mormonism seem to be. Well of course. They both see the same issues with the Church today. The just have opposing viewpoints on how to deal with the issues. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted February 21, 2021 Posted February 21, 2021 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: Sounds like prosperity gospel drivel. Well, the CoC is not like the Armstrong Worldwide Church of God, or its successors. The CoC President is very straightforward in putting his revelatory proposals before the World Conference for approval. The CoC leaders I knew when I lived in Independence, Missouri, were very kind and Christlike in their behavior. One of them even became the CoC President.
AtlanticMike Posted February 21, 2021 Posted February 21, 2021 22 hours ago, Meadowchik said: Huh. Folks I know who are dissatisfied with the slowness of the church have lives awash in spiritual revelation. So that's not it. Why are you using common sense?
Meadowchik Posted February 21, 2021 Posted February 21, 2021 14 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: With all due respect, I don’t think those who have left the Church are in a position to accurately describe the reality and nature of revelation in the Church. Perhaps just as accurately as Joseph Smith could describe the reality and nature of revelation in the Christian churches he criticized, reasonably even more so, since many of them have lived the LDS way longer than Smith had even been alive at that point. 14 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I have no clue what ‘spiritual revelation’ is meant to mean, but it doesn’t sound like the personal revelation that has characterised my membership and service in the Church of Jesus Christ from the beginning till now: actual interaction with a real Being who guides, teaches, directs and — importantly! — corrects. You need not understand the spiritual experiences of others in order for theirs to be just as valid to them as yours are to you. Personally my process of spiritual revelation still includes correction and being teachable, and more. 1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said: Why are you using common sense? At some point, "all due respect" for others demands some humility on my part. Both as a believing Mormon and now as an atheist Mormon, respect for the concept of God also demands humility. Claiming to have discovered the fount of all truth and meaning for not just myself but for anyone else in existence seems to run counter to the respect for other people or any possible Deity. 1
AtlanticMike Posted February 21, 2021 Posted February 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: At some point, "all due respect" for others demands some humility on my part. Both as a believing Mormon and now as an atheist Mormon, respect for the concept of God also demands humility. Claiming to have discovered the fount of all truth and meaning for not just myself but for anyone else in existence seems to run counter to the respect for other people or any possible Deity. I was just kidding with you, I liked what you said actually. Do you have any threads you've started that might share your point of view? 1
Meadowchik Posted February 21, 2021 Posted February 21, 2021 1 minute ago, AtlanticMike said: I was just kidding with you, I liked what you said actually. Yes, I know! I was not rebutting you, just building off your comment and the one before it.
Meadowchik Posted February 21, 2021 Posted February 21, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said: Do you have any threads you've started that might share your point of view? Here's one of my important spiritual experiences after my major belief change: ETA: And a list of the topics I have started: https://www.mormondialogue.org/profile/30039-meadowchik/content/?type=forums_topic&change_section=1 Edited February 21, 2021 by Meadowchik
AtlanticMike Posted February 21, 2021 Posted February 21, 2021 7 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Here's one of my important spiritual experiences after my major belief change: ETA: And a list of the topics I have started: https://www.mormondialogue.org/profile/30039-meadowchik/content/?type=forums_topic&change_section=1 Ok thank you. You interest me, I've never heard the term "atheist mormon". I'll check this out.
MiserereNobis Posted February 21, 2021 Posted February 21, 2021 17 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Well that's just it. What is described as revelation in the Church today is no longer unique to the Church. There is literally no difference in LDS claims of revelation comparative to any other Christian sect. That was the point I was trying to make in the thread that smac97 made. Anyone can check out our discussion on the pope and the LDS prophet here: 2
MiserereNobis Posted February 21, 2021 Posted February 21, 2021 14 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: the personal revelation that has characterised my membership and service in the Church of Jesus Christ from the beginning till now: actual interaction with a real Being who guides, teaches, directs and — importantly! — corrects. But as a Catholic, I get this, too. I feel the presence of God in my life. I feel the gentle love of the Blessed Virgin guiding me. God corrects me frequently, too. And when I spend time on retreat at Benedictine monasteries, I often experience a deep union with Him. I also often experience the Dark Night of the Soul, but that is also a manifestation of God. To repeat my issue from the other thread, the LDS claims, if we make sure we're using the same definitions, don't seem to be much different from Catholicism (I can't speak to other sects), even though the claims are framed as being unique. 4
JLHPROF Posted February 21, 2021 Posted February 21, 2021 1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said: And when I spend time on retreat at Benedictine monasteries, I often experience a deep union with Him. I also often experience the Dark Night of the Soul, but that is also a manifestation of God. I love that expression. 2
3DOP Posted February 21, 2021 Posted February 21, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said: That was the point I was trying to make in the thread that smac97 made. Anyone can check out our discussion on the pope and the LDS prophet here: How did I miss that thread???? It appears from what I have seen that you were very thorough and indeed to some extent, persuasive, because you had modest, attainable goals. You were not trying to prove the LDS to be false, but rather only highlighted the possibility that it is easy for LDS to misunderstand what Catholics have always believed in regard to apostolic authority and revelation in the Catholic Church. Anyway, bravo. I probably won't add to the remarks in this thread or that one, but wanted to thank you for the generous and thoughtful manner in which you have represented our Catholic faith. Edited February 21, 2021 by 3DOP 4
MiserereNobis Posted February 21, 2021 Posted February 21, 2021 (edited) 43 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I love that expression. I like Loreena McKennit! Have you heard her Dante's Prayer? It has similar sentiments. Edited February 21, 2021 by MiserereNobis 1
JLHPROF Posted February 21, 2021 Posted February 21, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: I like Loreena McKennit! Have you heard her Dante's Prayer? It has similar sentiments. Yes, I love all her music. The pagan, the religious, the Christian, the Muslim. Dante's Prayer is another great one, actually one of my favorites. Edited February 21, 2021 by JLHPROF 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted February 22, 2021 Posted February 22, 2021 (edited) 17 hours ago, Meadowchik said: At some point, "all due respect" for others demands some humility on my part ... Claiming to have discovered the fount of all truth and meaning for not just myself but for anyone else in existence seems to run counter to the respect for other people or any possible Deity. Got it. Your enlightened relativism is a humbler, more respectful, less judgemental and therefore vastly superior approach to life. Edited February 22, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan
Meadowchik Posted February 22, 2021 Posted February 22, 2021 15 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Got it. Your enlightened relativism is a humbler, more respectful, less judgemental and therefore vastly superior approach to life. What is the irony of me expecting the same humility from myself that I expect from others?
HappyJackWagon Posted February 22, 2021 Posted February 22, 2021 On 2/20/2021 at 5:25 PM, JLHPROF said: Well that's just it. What is described as revelation in the Church today is no longer unique to the Church. There is literally no difference in LDS claims of revelation comparative to any other Christian sect. IMO this is spot on. Inspiration and the kind of personal revelation people receive in the church is no different than any other faithful Christian I've known. But in the church there is a sense of greater expectation based on church history and truth claims AND there is often a level of arrogance in the church that we have more revelation than any other sect, even though there is no noticeable difference. 2
Theosis Posted February 22, 2021 Posted February 22, 2021 I think we can qualify the OP and state that sure, "little R" revelation is certainly present in our church today. I think a great many are receiving personal revelation quite frequently - I also don't think this is unique to members of the LDS Church. However, if were talking about "big R" revelation, top down revelation conveyed to a set apart Prophet of God I think it's really easy to identify and say no, we don't see big R revelation today. I don't know why that is but it seems to me, now more than ever, the world is in need of a prophetic voice speaking for God in an authoritative way. Perhaps we expect too much. If we take the Bible as a guide (for both political and spiritual events) I really think our times would call for bible like prophetic involvement. The children of Israel certainly were not spiritually prepared to receive it and were in great apostasy but God still provided for their world at large.
Hamba Tuhan Posted February 23, 2021 Posted February 23, 2021 On 2/22/2021 at 4:16 AM, MiserereNobis said: But as a Catholic, I get this, too. I feel the presence of God in my life. I feel the gentle love of the Blessed Virgin guiding me. God corrects me frequently, too. And when I spend time on retreat at Benedictine monasteries, I often experience a deep union with Him. For which I'm grateful! It's also what I would expect ... so much so, in fact, that I'm stunned when I occasionally find the opposite. One of my good mates here claims that his entire parish is 'spiritually dead'. I genuinely hope he's exaggerating! (He also claims he's the only person who attends mass who isn't 60+ and female ...) Quote To repeat my issue from the other thread, the LDS claims, if we make sure we're using the same definitions, don't seem to be much different from Catholicism (I can't speak to other sects), even though the claims are framed as being unique. The difference, I strongly suspect, is more one of experience than of definition. It made sense to me personally when people on my mission, for example, told me what they were experiencing that was wonderfully new to them, but if I hadn't experienced it myself, it would have been so many words. But seriously, at the foundation, I revel in the goodness of a loving Father in Heaven Who pours out blessings on all of His children. This I've experienced too!
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