provoman Posted January 23, 2021 Posted January 23, 2021 10 minutes ago, Calm said: As someone who loves seeing the stars at night, light pollution is a big thing for me. Also affects my sleep. There was a neighbor that would keep their rather strong porch or something light on all night which meant if I slept with my window open (standard as it improves quality of sleep massively most of the year), the light would keep me awake. I compromised by sleeping with a mask, but that causes other issues like overheating. When I lived with my grandmother, it was nice looking out of the bedroom window and seeing the Provo temple (mile away I am guessing). But when it is bedtime, mentally it helps to see the neighborhood in darkness. I bet I am not the only one with sleep issues who gets affected that way. you are not alone. I use the mask the bucky mask from bed bath and beyond.
Calm Posted January 23, 2021 Posted January 23, 2021 11 minutes ago, provoman said: you are not alone. I use the mask the bucky mask from bed bath and beyond. Tried that one.slipped around too much. I use a memory foam one with a terry cloth cover. Very bulky overall, but usually doesn’t press against my eyes at all, which really bugs me even if lightly and is the only one where I feel like my skin is still breathing. On my third one. We have nicknamed it my “eye bra” for I think obvious reasons if you look at it. https://www.overstock.com/Luggage-Bags/Travel-Accessories/3106/cat.html?featuredproduct=16635736&featuredoption=27675336&kid=9553000357392&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=22959881-000-000&cnc=US&guid=327845da-a7ab-4504-befd-dfa7c4788704&sponsoredproductid=14044506&cid=248968&type=pla&targetid=pla-400625908227&track=pspla&gclid=EAIaIQobChMInOGp_4Sx7gIVBNvACh2tvQthEAQYAiABEgJsgfD_BwE
Scott Lloyd Posted January 23, 2021 Posted January 23, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Calm said: I have not labeled this specific effort “innovation from grassroots”. This is not innovation. I was speaking in a more global sense about how leadership has always allowed itself to be influenced by input for others besides God and giving two parameters I see among others to provide context. I also said “possibly devout members”...meaning we have no clue about their ongoing relationship with the Church, if any, so how can you know enough about them to assume they are dissendents? And if you view the whole thing as a zoning issue of people you have no idea about their religious affiliation or status, why did you use the term “dissidents”? I used the term dissidents as pertaining to their relationship with their own municipal government. The government, provisionally, at least, had approved the Church’s intent to construct a temple accompanied by a residential development. The residents engaged in activism against that project and petitioned their local government to disallow it. That makes them, by definition, dissidents. I agree with you that neither of us (at least I don’t) has any idea of their religious affiliation or level of devoutness. I had already explicitly stated that for my part. If you don’t either, then it strikes me as odd that you would be raising the point about innovation in the Church arising from grassroots movements when that is obviously irrelevant to the subject at hand. When I consider the past history of grassroots innovation in the Church, I’m apt to think of Primary (Aurelia Spencer Rogers) or Sunday School (Richard Ballantyne) or Relief Society (Eliza R. Snow) or the Welfare Plan (Harold B. Lee as a stake president), an initiative by one or more rank-and-file members on a local-unit basis that is later adapted, expanded upon and implemented Church-wide. I’ve got to say the thing least apt to enter my mind is a group of indignant citizens trying to use the teeth of local-government fiat to block a project by the Church. Edited January 23, 2021 by Scott Lloyd 1
Calm Posted January 23, 2021 Posted January 23, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: That makes them, by definition, dissidents. Given the baggage with the word, applying it in this case seems likely to lead to misunderstandings as I suspect most will read it as saying they are in habitual protest against the Church or government rather than it being one, unique situation. In general, people think “Alexei Navalny” or “Liu Xiaobo” or someone like them when people hear “dissident”; in the Church probably “Kate Kelly” or “Sam Young” springs to mind. Edited January 23, 2021 by Calm 2
Scott Lloyd Posted January 23, 2021 Posted January 23, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Calm said: Given the baggage with the word, applying it in this case seems likely to lead to misunderstandings as I suspect most will read it as saying they are in habitual protest against the Church or government rather than it being one, unique situation. In general, people think “Alexei Navalny” or “Liu Xiaobo” or someone like them when people hear “dissident”; in the Church probably “Kate Kelly” or “Sam Young” springs to mind. So that’s what this is all about? You don’t like my word choice? Glad to have that cleared up at long last. I tend to think there’s more to it than that, though — like my challenging of the notion that God is apt to set His servants straight by raising up outside opposition to block implementation of their decisions. Edited January 23, 2021 by Scott Lloyd 1
Calm Posted January 23, 2021 Posted January 23, 2021 8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I tend to think there’s more to it than that, though — like my challenging of the notion that God is apt to set His servants straight by raising up outside opposition to block implementation of their decisions. You keep challenging straw men that are not my position, so not seeing how that could be what ‘it’, whatever “it” is, is about
Scott Lloyd Posted January 24, 2021 Posted January 24, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Calm said: You keep challenging straw men that are not my position, so not seeing how that could be what ‘it’, whatever “it” is, is about Did you not say, “I leave the possibility open that the residents received inspiration that there were better options out there and it was okay to push the Church to look for them”? Expressing understanding for their sentiments is one thing. Seriously entertaining the notion that God inspired them to pressure their county government to act unfavorably toward the Church’s rezoning request is quite another. And the above quote misstates the known facts. Nowhere has it been reported that the residents received or claimed to have received divine inspiration to tell the Church leaders to look for better site options. What they did was to petition the county to disallow a rezoning of the land because they didn’t want their own rural milieu altered. I don’t know that they otherwise give a rip about where the Church puts its temple. Edited January 24, 2021 by Scott Lloyd
Calm Posted January 24, 2021 Posted January 24, 2021 (edited) You are adding nuances into my comment that aren't there. I don’t care to put the effort into clarifying given how often that just creates more stuff I have to explain. For example, your last comment in that I was describing possibilities, not claiming facts. Edited January 24, 2021 by Calm
Scott Lloyd Posted January 24, 2021 Posted January 24, 2021 14 minutes ago, Calm said: You are adding nuances into my comment that aren't there. I don’t care to put the effort into clarifying given how often that just creates more stuff I have to explain. For example, your last comment in that I was describing possibilities, not claiming facts. So “leave open the possibility” is different, then, than “seriously entertain”? Not trying to add nuance to your comment, just ascertain your meaning.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 24, 2021 Posted January 24, 2021 For what it’s worth, Tad Walch of the Deseret News has written this backstory account of the Erda episode: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.deseret.com/platform/amp/faith/2021/1/21/22242578/lds-mormon-church-jesus-christ-tooele-temple-utah-recount-battle 1
Calm Posted January 24, 2021 Posted January 24, 2021 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: So “leave open the possibility” is different, then, than “seriously entertain”? Obviously, yes. Need more facts to seriously entertain anything. Edited January 24, 2021 by Calm 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 24, 2021 Posted January 24, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calm said: Obviously, yes. Need more facts to seriously entertain anything. So even though you raised the possibility, you don’t seriously entertain the idea that God would raise up a group of residents to contradict the prophets and apostles by means of grievances brought before municipal government. I’m quite glad to know that and am willing to leave it there. Edited January 24, 2021 by Scott Lloyd
nuclearfuels Posted January 26, 2021 Posted January 26, 2021 On 1/19/2021 at 3:43 PM, HappyJackWagon said: I don't pay much attention to local Utah politic Me neither. It makes every day of my life all the more beautiful 1
Bob Crockett Posted January 28, 2021 Posted January 28, 2021 On 1/22/2021 at 7:21 PM, Calm said: As someone who loves seeing the stars at night, light pollution is a big thing for me. Also affects my sleep. There was a neighbor that would keep their rather strong porch or something light on all night which meant if I slept with my window open (standard as it improves quality of sleep massively most of the year), the light would keep me awake. I compromised by sleeping with a mask, but that causes other issues like overheating. When I lived with my grandmother, it was nice looking out of the bedroom window and seeing the Provo temple (mile away I am guessing). But when it is bedtime, mentally it helps to see the neighborhood in darkness. I bet I am not the only one with sleep issues who gets affected that way. My favorite temple is Draper. But one day I was climbing with friends from a trailhead on Foothill to Lone Peak. We had to start at 2:00 a.m. My friends grumbled the whole way about the Temple. I started thinking about it and wondered if Solomon kept his temples alight with torches all night long. I can see the theoretical reason for doing so, I suppose. I live half time in Draper now and can see three temples from where I live in the middle of the night. It brings me peace rather than anxiety. Who knows, but I am sympathetic.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 28, 2021 Posted January 28, 2021 (edited) On 1/27/2021 at 10:44 PM, Bob Crockett said: My favorite temple is Draper. But one day I was climbing with friends from a trailhead on Foothill to Lone Peak. We had to start at 2:00 a.m. My friends grumbled the whole way about the Temple. I started thinking about it and wondered if Solomon kept his temples alight with torches all night long. I can see the theoretical reason for doing so, I suppose. I live half time in Draper now and can see three temples from where I live in the middle of the night. It brings me peace rather than anxiety. Who knows, but I am sympathetic. Do your friends grumble about all the high-end houses that pre-dated the temple but exist around it? Or is it just development by the Church of Jesus Christ they don’t like? I have lived pretty much my whole life in the area where I live now, about a 10-15 minutes’ drive from the temple. But in my youth, there was no temple there. Or houses. Or streets, cul-de-sacs, curbs, sidewalks, street lights, water lines or sewers. It was without any infrastructure to speak of. It was known as Corner Canyon then as it is now. It was pristine, an ideal place for hiking and camping in the wilds. In fact my very first camp as a newly minted Boy Scout was a winter camp in Corner Canyon. We had a later winter camp there, after I became a patrol leader. My patrol and I climbed to a rock outcropping, which we rather pretentiously christened Mustang Summit after the name of our patrol. Were I so inclined, I suppose I could complain about how the area since then has gone to pot because rich people like to build their houses higher up the mountain than any of the great unwashed down lower in the valley. But I’m not so inclined. I recognize that a certain amount of such development is inevitable. If it is to be, I think it a good thing that the neighborhood — any neighborhood — can be sanctified by the presence of a beautiful House of the Lord. Again, I wonder if your friends are as apt to complain about the spoiling of the area by residential development in general as they are by the presence of the temple. Or if they are too young or moved in too recently to remember how it was before. Edited January 29, 2021 by Scott Lloyd
Bob Crockett Posted January 28, 2021 Posted January 28, 2021 25 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Do your friends grumble about all the high-end houses that pre-dated the temple but exist around it? Or is it just development by the Church of Jesus Christ they don’t like? I have lived pretty much my whole life in the area where I live now, about a 5-10 minutes’ drive from the temple. But in my youth, there was no temple there. Or houses. Or streets, cul-de-sacs, curbs, sidewalks, street lights, water lines or sewers. It was without any infrastructure to speak of. It was known as Corner Canyon then as it is now. It was pristine, an ideal place for hiking and camping in the wilds. In fact my very first camp as a newly minted Boy Scout was a winter camp in Corner Canyon. We had a later winter camp there, after I became a patrol leader. My patrol and I climbed to a rock outcropping, which we rather pretentiously christened Mustang Summit after the name of our patrol. Were I so inclined, I suppose I could complain about how the area since then has gone to pot because rich people like to build their houses higher up the mountain than any of the great unwashed down lower in the valley. But I’m not so inclined. I recognize that a certain amount of such development is inevitable. If it is to be, I think it a good thing that the neighborhood — any neighborhood — can be sanctified by the presence of a beautiful House of the Lord. Again, I wonder if your friends are as apt to complain about the spoiling of the area by residential development in general as they are by the presence of the temple. Or if they are too young or moved in too recently to remember how it was before. It is only the lighting that offends. I wonder what it is like to live right next door.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 28, 2021 Posted January 28, 2021 20 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said: It is only the lighting that offends. I wonder what it is like to live right next door. Probably no worse than living near a grocery store or strip mall or lighted city street. Like many of the peasants down in the valley do. 1
Tacenda Posted January 29, 2021 Posted January 29, 2021 On 1/28/2021 at 11:32 AM, Scott Lloyd said: Do your friends grumble about all the high-end houses that pre-dated the temple but exist around it? Or is it just development by the Church of Jesus Christ they don’t like? I have lived pretty much my whole life in the area where I live now, about a 10-15 minutes’ drive from the temple. But in my youth, there was no temple there. Or houses. Or streets, cul-de-sacs, curbs, sidewalks, street lights, water lines or sewers. It was without any infrastructure to speak of. It was known as Corner Canyon then as it is now. It was pristine, an ideal place for hiking and camping in the wilds. In fact my very first camp as a newly minted Boy Scout was a winter camp in Corner Canyon. We had a later winter camp there, after I became a patrol leader. My patrol and I climbed to a rock outcropping, which we rather pretentiously christened Mustang Summit after the name of our patrol. Were I so inclined, I suppose I could complain about how the area since then has gone to pot because rich people like to build their houses higher up the mountain than any of the great unwashed down lower in the valley. But I’m not so inclined. I recognize that a certain amount of such development is inevitable. If it is to be, I think it a good thing that the neighborhood — any neighborhood — can be sanctified by the presence of a beautiful House of the Lord. Again, I wonder if your friends are as apt to complain about the spoiling of the area by residential development in general as they are by the presence of the temple. Or if they are too young or moved in too recently to remember how it was before. My husband lived on Boulter street all of his growing up years! I wonder if you guys know each other. He was famous for draining some pond or something in the hills above Draper, and he's mentioned riding his dirt bike in the hills as well. I remember when we first started dating of going to the Iceberg, and seeing the fire station and Taco Time I believe, but not much else. Nothing like it is today.
mfbukowski Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 On 1/28/2021 at 11:21 AM, Scott Lloyd said: Probably no worse than living near a grocery store or strip mall or lighted city street. Like many of the peasants down in the valley do. The LA temple is just a few miles from Santa Monica airport, and the pilots (mostly private jets) as well as the air traffic controllers actually use Moroni in navigation at night. The setting is on a natural rise, the tower always well lit, and in the surrounding mile or so radius, it is in a relatively unlit section so it is easy to spot from the air- this gleaming golden pinnacle rising out of a darker surrounding area. Just plain gorgeous! v 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: The LA temple is just a few miles from Santa Monica airport, and the pilots (mostly private jets) as well as the air traffic controllers actually use Moroni in navigation at night. The setting is on a natural rise, the tower always well lit, and in the surrounding mile or so radius, it is in a relatively unlit section so it is easy to spot from the air- this gleaming golden pinnacle rising out of a darker surrounding area. Just plain gorgeous! v I think there is exquisite symbolism in a lighted temple standing out from dark surroundings or against a darkened sky. I may have mentioned this on here before, but my family and I had the opportunity to attend the first session of the Draper Temple dedication about 12 years ago. We had to leave before daylight to arrive in time for the session. As we approached from the north, we could see the lighted temple on the otherwise dark mountainside. It looked ethereal, as though it were suspended in the air. I suggested to my family that we remember the moment and let that image of the temple symbolically guide us as the temple and the things we learn therein are a beacon in an often dark world. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 6 hours ago, Tacenda said: My husband lived on Boulter street all of his growing up years! I wonder if you guys know each other. He was famous for draining some pond or something in the hills above Draper, and he's mentioned riding his dirt bike in the hills as well. I remember when we first started dating of going to the Iceberg, and seeing the fire station and Taco Time I believe, but not much else. Nothing like it is today. I don’t live in Draper proper. I live and have lived in Crescent, an adjacent former farming community. I don’t know offhand where Boulter Street is.
Tacenda Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 9 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I don’t live in Draper proper. I live and have lived in Crescent, an adjacent former farming community. I don’t know offhand where Boulter Street is. Oh, if you go south past the Draper park and make your first left by the Corner Canyon Church and head east to Boulter street and make a right you'll see a large Stake center coming up on the right and my in-laws former home is the white house right next to it, they gave up some land so that it could be built. The owners are now remodeling it. That's my husband's childhood home. I've never heard of Crescent, is it more east toward Sandy? Wait, just asked my husband, he knows the area. My husband and I road our bikes through all those streets and the trail during the summer.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 29 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Oh, if you go south past the Draper park and make your first left by the Corner Canyon Church and head east to Boulter street and make a right you'll see a large Stake center coming up on the right and my in-laws former home is the white house right next to it, they gave up some land so that it could be built. The owners are now remodeling it. That's my husband's childhood home. I've never heard of Crescent, is it more east toward Sandy? Wait, just asked my husband, he knows the area. My husband and I road our bikes through all those streets and the trail during the summer. If it’s the trail I’m thinking of, I go walking on it quite often. Does it run parallel to the railroad tracks and lead from the north toward the IFA store and Draper Park?
JLHPROF Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I think there is exquisite symbolism in a lighted temple standing out from dark surroundings or against a darkened sky. None more so than the Salt Lake Temple. The entire gospel journey is represented in its design. Edited January 30, 2021 by JLHPROF 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 30, 2021 Posted January 30, 2021 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: None more so than the Salt Lake Temple. The entire gospel journey is represented in its design. I was referring to the general impact of the lighted edifice standing out against dark surroundings, but you’re right about the Salt Lake Temple design being rich with gospel symbolism. Other temples too. I once interviewed the man who designed the art glass windows in the Winter Quarters temple. He very explicitly explained to me the symbolism he was deliberately incorporating into the designs, stuff the average person would miss without having a tutorial like he was giving me. This was while the temple was under construction. He was also involved with a number of others of the Church’s temples.
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