He was arrested in Provo riot; now, he’s been arrested for storming of the Capitol

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

That is fair. As I mentioned, I found the info interesting that’s been given and it points to him being more than a bit of a lone figure with some wonky ideas. But that’s about as far as that can go. 
I also agree a bit with pogi on the discrepancy between BLM and some of the issue that led up to the domestic terrorism here. And this maybe more my frustrations with how conversations with them have gone. Often here (and other places) BLM was strongly critiqued from those not invested or really effected by the problems,  with only some recognition about the cause and concern. Whenever a small number became violent it all became a mob or riots and anarchy this. It was a tightrope of discussion that often lost or minimized the main point: that black people, families, and communities among other minority groups have faced unfair and even brutal treatment from police across the country and there has been very little to change this for decades. 
 

for this, I get that it can easily veer political, but it’s still irritating to watch the focus not be on at least some of the less political and more religious influences that’s fed a serious turn/growth of conservative radicalism. There’s a problem in conservative/religious circles but instead of focusing on what exactly that is...there’s discussion on a guy who’s non-representative of those largely there. It bothers me that the same level of critique, analysis, and concern tie to BLM isn’t being give when it’s proverbially in one’s own house (not specifically you, but more conservative circles). 

 

with luv, 

bd

I know you are a professional in these areas, but I just spoke to a Behavoral Detectional Officer buddy and sent him the mug shot, and he confirmed that it showed surprise/fear, but he could have faked it, and either way it doesn't mean much.

So much for my unerring wisdom in such matters.   

My bad.

🙄🤯

 

Edited January 15, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

The first part is a stretch to suggest this has any religious relevance simply because the dude is from Utah.

Or because the shooting was across the street from the Temple.  It is not like the protest was staged in front of the temple.  It just was blocking a major intersection.  From what I could tell in the video, there were more people on the opposite sides of the street, probably due to the traffic flow pattern (cars were stopped there due to waiting for light to change). 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Calm

[CV75]

47 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I appreciate your thoughts. 

Regarding the geographic aspects of the Church (or, if you will, Zion), I think they are even more influential to Latter-day Saints than geographic aspects would generally be in other groups or cultures. Hence, I consider a temple of the Church to be a sacred space and hold it in high reverence, regardless of where in the world it is located. And I have affinity for Church members in lands and cultures where I would otherwise find little in common with myself. 

I was especially disturbed, therefore, to think that the Provo riot (and yes, Calm, I’m going to continue to call it that) transpired within a quarter-mile, if that, from the Provo City Center Temple. I live one county away from Provo, but I would feel the same if I lived on the other side of the world. 

Yes, I've often considered our unit boundaries to be akin to the designated inheritances for Israel, that we should regard them with reverence. That would go for our temple boundaries also, now that you mention Provo City Center Temple. I live 30 minutes from a temple, and fortunately in an area that is not a riot "destination" spot so I haven't that personal experience. The worst I've seen are protestors at the old Hill Cumorah Pageant and a temple open house or two; nothing to be alarmed about. But given the prophecies about the land of the Restoration (USA), the Constitution and governments (D&C), as a people we generally identify with upholding our form of government, laws, etc. no matter our particular party alignment, and what we've seen in our streets and Capitol of late cover the gamut of the stages of grief and loss.

 

[CV75]

22 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Yep, I agree that it is an insightful book. The religious-themed radicalisation right now is complex and forms of it are relatively widespread. The Righteous Mind addresses the question of changing peoples' minds. While that is an important goal, it's not the only objective in this situation where dogma has resulted in sedition.

The book also discusses how hearts (the recognition and appreciation of all moral foundations, no harm/no foul as they are inherent -- if I can borrow a term, "inalienable" -- for those who possess any of them) can change as well as minds, and is 100% supportive of the role of religion to bind individuals to righteous (as Haidt defines it) societies that accomplish both and constructively compromise.

I see where Scott has requested that a discussion focusing on examples of LDS "dogma" (in the eye of the beholder) causing sedition be addressed in a new thread (if you want to start it).

[pogi]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Or because the shooting was across the street from the Temple.  It is not like the protest was staged in front of the temple.  It just was blocking a major intersection.  From what I could tell in the video, there were more people on the opposite sides of the street, probably due to the traffic flow pattern (cars were stopped there due to waiting for light to change). 

I simply don’t recall that being the topic of discussion.  Maybe mentioned in passing.  It was a political al thread.

[CV75]

15 minutes ago, pogi said:

The second part of your comment is not what this thread is about.

The first part is a stretch to suggest this has any religious relevance simply because the dude is from Utah.  This is a news event at best, political at worst. 

I'm not sure what you are referring to as the second part; please specify.

The first part, that the dude is from Utah, is part of why he is the topic on a religious discussion board (for many people, Utah's reputation and Utahan identity have much to do with religion).

[Scott Lloyd]

13 minutes ago, pogi said:

I simply don’t recall that being the topic of discussion.  Maybe mentioned in passing.  It was a political al thread.

Smac made a point of not feeling he could safely allow his daughter to go with friends to the temple grounds because of their proximity to the rioting. 

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Smac made a point of not feeling he could safely allow his daughter to go with friends to the temple grounds because of their proximity to the rioting. 

Likely would have felt the same way about them going to the restaurants on those streets as well though I am guessing, so not really religious. 

[Scott Lloyd]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

Likely would have felt the same way about them going to the restaurants on those streets as well though I am guessing, so not really religious. 

I’m using this to illustrate that the proximity of the temple to ground zero of the rioting was indeed part of the discussion. 

[pogi]

58 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I'm not sure what you are referring to as the second part; please specify.

Here is the second part I was referring which is not the topic of debate:

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Two books I find highly informative in understanding where people are coming from are:  On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century, by Timothy Snyder, and The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion, by Jonathan Haidt.

I  think it will take some genius to use this opportunity that has been extended to us from the beginning of the pandemic through last summer's protests through this current distress -- which I view as a trajectory of revealing the bad, worse and worst of human nature (2 Thessalonians 2:3) on a broad scale (the man of sin is not a political leader but the natural man we all can be) -- to tackle these issues. As the books above show, the resolution is not necessarily political, and we all know what we preach.

My 2 cents for not shutting down! 

Quote

The first part, that the dude is from Utah, is part of why he is the topic on a religious discussion board (for many people, Utah's reputation and Utahan identity have much to do with religion).

So I should be allowed to start a thread about any political topic so long as it is centered around a character (who doesn't even have to be Latter-day Saint, or even religious for all we know) from Utah?

Seems like a political loop-hole to talk about political topics.  

 

 

[pogi]

32 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m using this to illustrate that the proximity of the temple to ground zero of the rioting was indeed part of the discussion. 

Is that part of the discussion here?

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, pogi said:

Is that part of the discussion here?

I’ve mentioned it a number of times now. 
 

What is it you are asking?

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, pogi said:

Here is the second part I was referring which is not the topic of debate:

So I should be allowed to start a thread about any political topic so long as it is centered around a character (who doesn't even have to be Latter-day Saint, or even religious for all we know) from Utah?

Seems like a political loop-hole to talk about political topics.  

 

 

Pogi, you’ve got a burr under your saddle over the fact they won’t let you get into partisan politics. I don’t make the rules here; as far as I know, none of the contributors here do. 
 

From your very first post here (the second post of the thread) you’ve been spun up over your own supposition that I’m claiming Antifa was behind the Capitol riot. I’ve made no such claim. I don’t plan to make any such claim. 
 

Can you stand down now? 

[pogi]

15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Can you stand down now? 

Standing down and standing by. 

Enjoy your political thread which you claim to refuse to participate in.  I can't believe we are talking about Provo riots after what has happened.  That is my burr. Bye. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by pogi

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And you’re going to see to it that it doesn’t, I see. 

I was responding with what I knew about Sullivan then you threw a snide remark about how cavalier I was about the poor people being minorly inconvenienced by a protest. You picked this fight and you did it very intentionally.

[The Nehor]

For any who are interested I asked a couple of people I know who were involved more closely about Sullivan. According to them his main motivation for joining the protest seemed to be grifting. He was trying to make money off the whole thing. After pretty much everyone was warned off of him he tried to set up his own independent movement and failed. The general consensus is he probably switched sides to try to grift a new group of people, got caught up in the insanity, and probably ruined his life. No one is shedding any tears.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Standing down and standing by. 

Enjoy your political thread which you claim to refuse to participate in.  I can't believe we are talking about Provo riots after what has happened.  That is my burr. Bye. 

I can’t either. It is probably going to be the new “but emails” whataboutism all over again with no self-consciousness about the even vaster divides between the things being compared. I am hopeful it will not work to distract from an actual coup attempt incited by politicians but I’ve been surprised before.

I have imagined myself going back in time to the 1980s to warn people that “then former California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger will condemn the self-coup attempt by US President Donald Trump after he and his followers incite a mob to murder his Vice President and members of Congress. Shortly after that a pillow salesman meets with the President to discuss declaring martial law.” We are in the stupidest timeline.

[Harry T. Clark]

His brother says that John Sullivan might have been leading the riot as well as there to document it and was part of Antifa:

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/01/huge-brother-arrested-antifa-blm-activist-john-sullivan-turned-brother-says-brother-somehow-charge-us-capitol-riots-video/

[provoman]

13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

For any who are interested I asked a couple of people I know who were involved more closely about Sullivan. According to them his main motivation for joining the protest seemed to be grifting. He was trying to make money off the whole thing. After pretty much everyone was warned off of him he tried to set up his own independent movement and failed. The general consensus is he probably switched sides to try to grift a new group of people, got caught up in the insanity, and probably ruined his life. No one is shedding any tears.

What indication is there that "he switched sides". The protest was a perfect setting for an agent provocateur, not saying is one, it is just a another possible reason for him being there...him just wanting to foment trouble. Had he not set out to incite the crowd, he probably would not be in the situation his now; that is, if he had only shown up and "reported" what was happening.  

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

His brother says that John Sullivan might have been leading the riot as well as there to document it and was part of Antifa:

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/01/huge-brother-arrested-antifa-blm-activist-john-sullivan-turned-brother-says-brother-somehow-charge-us-capitol-riots-video/

Quote

Sullivan also organized an Antifa-Insurgence rally on January 6th at the Washingotn Monument at 11 AM before they stormed the US Capitol.

And did anyone actually show up for it who was left wing?  Is there any evidence that Insurgence is more than just him?  There is nothing that indicates he was with anybody iirc from the affidavit which described in detail what you could hear on the video (though it may have left stuff out).

[Calm]

Quote

James told the FBI he believed his brother was not only involved in the riots at the US Capitol but somehow was in charge.

James Sullivan: “He was going in there to document but he was also part of the Antifa groups

I don’t think their paraphrase matches the quote much. 
 

Info on the woman:

Quote

a blonde woman accompanying Sullivan who appears to be his accomplice, Jade Sacker, gleefully exclaims, “We did it!”

“You were right! We did it,” she boasts.

one accomplice that appears to be with him.  

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/01/caught-video-antifa-protester-john-sullivan-brags-posing-trump-supporter-breaking-window-us-capitol-building-riots/

Where is the video of the rally he had?  This guy can’t resist publicizing himself. Where is the video of him at 11 with all of his buddies showing they had planned to be there with him instead of a few just showing up because they knew of the Trump rally?  We get a video of just him talking and some people we can’t see yelling. 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Calm

[The Nehor]

16 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

His brother says that John Sullivan might have been leading the riot as well as there to document it and was part of Antifa:

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/01/huge-brother-arrested-antifa-blm-activist-john-sullivan-turned-brother-says-brother-somehow-charge-us-capitol-riots-video/

Was “somehow in charge”? Okay. From what I’ve heard the rest of his family is alt-right and have been for years so I am not surprised they are trying to support the party line/lie that the FBI has investigated and dismissed.

I admit there have been a lot of laughs at this turnabout. Imagine you go to the rally ready to serve the President. He inspires you to act and you charge in to ‘stop the steal’. You are later arrested and all the people you did this for start saying you are Antifa. The internet slap fights between those who were there and said there weren’t Antifa leading them and the theorycrafters trying to explain it away were ramming heads. Of course that involved a lot more people confessing their crimes to prove they aren’t Antifa and made the FBI’s job a lot easier. Like I said: stupidest time line. It’s only saving grace is that it is sometimes hilarious.

Edited January 16, 2021 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, provoman said:

What indication is there that "he switched sides". The protest was a perfect setting for an agent provocateur, not saying is one, it is just a another possible reason for him being there...him just wanting to foment trouble. Had he not set out to incite the crowd, he probably would not be in the situation his now; that is, if he had only shown up and "reported" what was happening.  

Mostly because he had no loyalty to the “cause” in the first place so why would be bother doing this for it? When I say switch sides I don’t mean he became a partisan of the Q-Anon conspiracy. It would be a cynical shift to find new marks. He was probably there primarily to get some credibility for his next scam with maybe some wanting to be there for the spectacle and chaos of it all thrown in.

[provoman]

17 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

His brother says that John Sullivan might have been leading the riot as well as there to document it and was part of Antifa:

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/01/huge-brother-arrested-antifa-blm-activist-john-sullivan-turned-brother-says-brother-somehow-charge-us-capitol-riots-video/

hmmm...the affidavit from the FBI for his arrest, does not mention his brother that I recall.

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, provoman said:

hmmm...the affidavit from the FBI for his arrest, does not mention his brother that I recall.

And the Gateway Pundit article is utter garbage. He was the head of Utah BLM/Antifa? Uhhhh.....no. Lies, lies, and more lies.