DezNat (Deseret Nation) = White Nationalism? - Part 2

[smac97]

16 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Here’s a very recent video wherein Kwaku, among others, identifies as a Desnat. Kwaku is notorious for being an outrageous wisecracker and I think it’s likely his “I hate Deznat” was tongue-in-cheek.

Huh.  Well, I'll certainly give this a look.  Thank you for sharing.

Thanks,

-Smac

[juliann]

17 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Here’s a very recent video wherein Kwaku, among others, identifies as a Desnat. Kwaku is notorious for being an outrageous wisecracker and I think it’s likely his “I hate Deznat” was tongue-in-cheek.

A 45 minute video isn't  proof.  Please give a timestamp where he declares himself as a DezNat.  

[juliann]

All I'm learning is that DezNat is a hashtag that has differing definitions. I'm confused. Is this an organized racist alt right group or a mix of strange people,  or just another handy slur? 

[Ipod Touch]

10 minutes ago, juliann said:

Is this an organized racist alt right group or a mix of strange people,  or just another handy slur? 

A hashtag used by Truest of True Blue Mormons.  It is used to post reactionary content to those they deem "progmos."  It's the Mormon version of /pol or /r/TheDonald.

Hashtag users generally express enthusiastic support for the Church and its leaders.  A favorite statement of theirs, is "Brigham Did Nothing Wrong"

This is a take 4chan's "Hitler Did Nothing Wrong" and is a reaction to their perception that "progmos" basically see Brigham Young as Adolf Hitler.

The whole point is to poke the progmo moral bear because he responses to "Brigham Did Nothing Wrong" are as hysterical as expected. It is a cycle.

ETA: And some people who use the hashtag say things that are truly racist and misogynist. For example, #RepealTheNineteenth is sometimes used alongside #DezNat

Edited December 8, 2020 by Ipod Touch

[juliann]

2 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

A hashtag used by Truest of True Blue Mormons.  It is used to post reactionary content to those they deem "progmos."  It's the Mormon version of /pol or /r/TheDonald.

Hashtag users generally express enthusiastic support for the Church and its leaders.  A favorite statement of theirs, is "Brigham Did Nothing Wrong"

This is a take 4chan's "Hitler Did Nothing Wrong" and is a reaction to their perception that "progmos" basically see Brigham Young as Adolf Hitler.

The whole point is to poke the progmo moral bear. Because, the responses to "Brigham Did Nothing Wrong" are as hysterical as expected.

OK...that is the first thing I've seen that makes sense, thanks. I don't share their sense of humor and I don't think this is good idea but I understand the premise. I can see where interests can intersect when it comes to annoyance over "progmos" who deride church supporters. I would expect to find the same racism I see in the Mormon and exMormon world. The racous environment would probably result in it being less hidden behind niceties. But once that element is there, decent people need to leave. 

[teddyaware]

18 minutes ago, juliann said:

A 45 minute video isn't  proof.  Please give a timestamp where he declares himself as a DezNat.  

It’s proof alright because the proof is on the video. I’m not going to watch it again for you. If you’re interested enough to want to know, watch the video. Otherwise, all the best.

[juliann]

2 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

It’s proof alright because the proof is on the video. I’m not going to watch it again for you. If you’re interested enough to want to know, watch the video. Otherwise, all the best.

It's board courtesy, teddy. We have never allowed people to merely name a book or long video as evidence. It does need to be a quote or timestamp. It isn't reasonable to expect people to watch a 45 min. video. 

[teddyaware]

38 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Huh.  Well, I'll certainly give this a look.  Thank you for sharing.

Thanks,

-Smac

Does Kwaku’s response, “My 2nd trip to LA in one week. When you write/film a new show taking down the CES Letter you gotta do it right. Can’t wait for you guys to see it 💛” seem like he’s mad at Robert?

Does 

Edited December 8, 2020 by teddyaware

[smac97]

8 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Does Kwaku’s response, “My 2nd trip to LA in one week. When you write/film a new show taking down the CES Letter you gotta do it right. Can’t wait for you guys to see it 💛” seem like he’s mad at Robert?

Does 

Huh.  You seem to have a point.

I'm confused now.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Ipod Touch]

10 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Does Kwaku’s response, “My 2nd trip to LA in one week. When you write/film a new show taking down the CES Letter you gotta do it right. Can’t wait for you guys to see it 💛” seem like he’s mad at Robert?

I don't think you know how Twitter works?

Robert replied or retweeted kwaku.  Kwaku did not respond to Robert. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Ipod Touch

[teddyaware]

4 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

I don't think you know how Twitter works?

Robert replied or retweeted kwaku.  Kwaku did not respond to Robert. 

So was Robert communicating with Kwaku? If so, same difference.

 

[juliann]

I'm a little uncomfortable evaluating a Black guy's reaction to this kind of stuff......from a few minutes of that video it seems Kwaku deals with this stuff by laughing at it. Maybe it isn't an issue.  Who knows.  I don't think we are in a position to ....nor is it appropriate..... to read additional meaning into an online interaction.

I remain interested in the DezNat aspect. 

[juliann]

1 minute ago, teddyaware said:

So was Robert communicating with Kwaku? If so, same difference.

 

Please stop plastering racist jargon. It's offensive no matter who did or said what. 

[teddyaware]

21 minutes ago, juliann said:

It's board courtesy, teddy. We have never allowed people to merely name a book or long video as evidence. It does need to be a quote or timestamp. It isn't reasonable to expect people to watch a 45 min. video. 

Well since I don’t feel like watching it again, I’ll likely delete it. I’ll have to decide what to do. Does it help if I tell you I’m virtually sure the comments were made in the second half of the video?

[teddyaware]

2 minutes ago, juliann said:

Please stop plastering racist jargon. It's offensive no matter who did or said what. 

So I’m not allowed to post what smac originally posted so it’s easy for him to see I’m quoting Robert accurately? I’m sure you know this, yet you nonetheless come close to accusing me of intentionally posting racist jargon. Not fair.

[juliann]

22 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

So I’m not allowed to post what smac originally posted so it’s easy for him to see I’m quoting Robert accurately? I’m sure you know this, yet you nonetheless come close to accusing me of intentionally posting racist jargon. Not fair.

Oops, sorry about that. No one should be reposting racist comments. They don't stop being racist just because someone else said them and why are we exposing people to it. Treat it like you would porn. You don't have to show it to talk about it. 

[Ipod Touch]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

So was Robert communicating with Kwaku? If so, same difference.

 

From the larger context it seems that Robert is friendly with Kwaku.  Regardless, variants of the n-word should be avoided.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, juliann said:

All I'm learning is that DezNat is a hashtag that has differing definitions. I'm confused. Is this an organized racist alt right group or a mix of strange people,  or just another handy slur? 

I don't know much beyond the name of Deznat.  Seen enough though that its use bothers me, so I go looking to see what someone posts if they associate with it.

This stuff reminds me of Incel.***  It was started by a woman as a support group for people who were living outside a relationship, but morphed tragically imo into a movement of a very different and dangerous quality.  During the transition, before most everyone understood Incel in the same way, I assume they had a variety of posters posting for both the original purpose and others posting the new aggressive version.  

If a transition is not so obvious, if there are posters committed to the original idea and fighting to maintain that sense of the community, there would be a time of mixed messages.  

This might be happening in DezNat, there will be non-racists posting using that hashtag.  Why should we tarnish them with the same racist brush because they have been invaded by others?  Why not instead judge them by their own comments?

Isn't condemning all of Deznat as racist the same as condemning anyone who identifies as exmormon and posts on one of the exmormon sites as antimormon just because there are lots of antimormons posting on those sites?

***

Quote

The first online community to use the term "incel" was started in 1993 when a Canadian university student known only by her first name, Alana, created a website in order to discuss her sexual inactivity with others.[5][29][30][31] The website, titled "Alana's Involuntary Celibacy Project", was used by people of all genders to share their thoughts and experiences.[5] In 1997, she started a mailing list on the topic that used the abbreviation INVCEL, later shortened to "incel", for "anybody of any gender who was lonely, had never had sex or who hadn't had a relationship in a long time".[32] During her college years and after, Alana realized she was bisexual and became more comfortable with her identity.[31] She stopped participating in her online project around 2000 and gave the site to a stranger.[33][30] In 2018, Alana said of her project, "It definitely wasn't a bunch of guys blaming women for their problems. That's a pretty sad version of this phenomenon that's happening today. Things have changed in the last 20 years."[32] When she read about the 2014 Isla Vista killings, and that parts of the incel subculture glorified the perpetrator, she wrote, "Like a scientist who invented something that ended up being a weapon of war, I can't uninvent this word, nor restrict it to the nicer people who need it."[34][31] She expressed regret at the change in usage from her original intent of creating an "inclusive community" for people of all genders who were sexually deprived due to social awkwardness, marginalization, or mental illness.[22]

The message board love-shy.com was founded in 2003 as a place for people who felt perpetually rejected or were extremely shy with potential partners to discuss their situations.[35][36] It was less strictly moderated than its counterpart, IncelSupport, which was also founded in the 2000s, and while IncelSupport welcomed men and women and banned misogynistic posts, love-shy.com's userbase was overwhelmingly male. Over the next decade, the membership of love-shy.com and other online communities like 4chan increasingly overlapped.[33] In the 2000s, incel communities became more extremist as they adopted behaviors common on forums like 4chan and Reddit, where extremist posts were encouraged as a way to achieve visibility....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel

Edited December 9, 2020 by Calm

[webbles]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

So was Robert communicating with Kwaku? If so, same difference.

 

Based off the tweet you shared, Robert wasn't trying to communicate with Kwaku.  He was sharing to the people who are listening to him (Robert) what Kwaku said.  And he (Robert) was adding his own commentary.  It is possible that Kwaku hasn't even seen what Robert wrote.

[Kenngo1969]

There is (so I'm told, by people who claim to know) such a concept as "in-group vs. out-group" language.  Personally, I think the n-word is reprehensible no matter who uses it, at whom it is directed, and regardless of the circumstances.  However, allegedly, "in-group" usage is supposed to be less offensive than "out-group" usage.  (Indeed, the former is said to not be offensive at all.)  I'm not at all sure about that, but it ain't my circus, so ...

[The Nehor]

Deznat is a nationalist movement. That alone makes it very very suspect in an international church.

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

Oops, sorry about that. No one should be reposting racist comments. They don't stop being racist just because someone else said them and why are we exposing people to it. Treat it like you would porn. You don't have to show it to talk about it. 

Since promoting racist ideas or attitudes was the farthest thing from my mind when I reposted Smac’s post for his reading convenience, your condemnatory comments are viewed by Yours Truly as nothing less than self-righteous posturing, likely.because you’re frustrated that I’m proving Kwaku does, in fact, consider himself to be a Deznat. Here’s more proof for you: an angry post I found on reddit in which the writer bemoans Kwaku identifying himself as a Deznat.

Since I cannot contact President Nelson or any of the 12 Apostles directly, maybe someone will pass this along. Expressly distance the church from #deznat and Kwaku

Institutional

Don't dance around it. Don't be wishy-washy. They are an element that has no place in the church. Call a special news conference and out right say, we do not condone the deznat ideology, nor any violent acts (committed or implied) against other human being based on religious affiliation. Silence is acceptance.

I know that this has been said in general ways, like Dallin Oaks most recent General Conference talks, but they don't believe that they are the ones being admonished. And as long as they receive money from the More Good Foundation, they will believe they have the support of the church.

Edited December 9, 2020 by teddyaware

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

There is (so I'm told, by people who claim to know) such a concept as "in-group vs. out-group" language.  Personally, I think the n-word is reprehensible no matter who uses it, at whom it is directed, and regardless of the circumstances.  However, allegedly, "in-group" usage is supposed to be less offensive than "out-group" usage.  (Indeed, the former is said to not be offensive at all.)  I'm not at all sure about that, but it ain't my circus, so ...

Here's an interesting short essay about that by Gloria Naylor: The Meaning of a Word

It discusses in the "in-group" use of the n-word and what that means, and then also brings up the issue of how consensus gives a word meaning, so if the "in-group" has changed the meaning of that word in their use, then the meaning is changed. She argues words only mean what we agree they mean.

[Calm]

On 12/8/2020 at 5:44 PM, teddyaware said:

because you’re frustrated that I’m proving Kwaku does, in fact, consider himself to be a Deznat.

Actually you are quite wrong. At this point he does not identify with them, if there was ever a time he saw himself aligned with them. 
 

I have confirmed it with Hanna. 
 

Edited to be more accurate In paraphrase 

Edited December 17, 2020 by Calm

[Meadowchik]

Hashtags are still a new kind of media. They very efficiently aggregate attention and information. I agree that the DezNat hashtag is loaded with harmful meaning and it should not be promoted.