The Nehor Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 14 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said: Tell that to the young man who said the N-word in a google document in High School and then lost his admittance to Harvard. Good.
Ipod Touch Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Good. Yes Nehor! You get your revenge on that guy for saying somethign when he was 16! Grrr! That you are willing to destroy the future of a young man, says a lot about your morals. What about the girl at the Kendrick Lamar concert? Should we destroy her future too? And it is a bit rich, isn't it. Didn't you complain when Dr. Scratch create an entry for you on the now defunct "Encyclopedia of Mopologetics?" And why? Because he listed some of the stupid things YOU said on this board years and years ago. And now you want to stand on your rameumpton and condemn a someone for what THEY said 10 years ago? Also, your NCMO movement was clearly an affront to women. Even a threat to their safety. You should be banned from the board. See how easy it is to play this game? Edited December 17, 2020 by Ipod Touch 1
The Nehor Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said: Yes Nehor! You get your revenge on that guy for saying somethign when he was 16! Grrr! That you are willing to destroy the future of a young man, says a lot about your morals. What about the girl at the Kendrick Lamar concert? Should we destroy her future too? And it is a bit rich, isn't it. Didn't you complain when Dr. Scratch create an entry for you on the now defunct "Encyclopedia of Mopologetics?" And why? Because he listed some of the stupid things YOU said on this board years and years ago. And now you want to stand on your rameumpton and condemn a someone for what THEY said 10 years ago? Also, your NCMO movement was clearly an affront to women. Even a threat to their safety. You should be banned from the board. See how easy it is to play this game? Yes, I thought I recognized your posting style. How you been you depraved weirdo? 1
Ipod Touch Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 Just now, The Nehor said: Yes, I thought I recognized your posting style. How you been you depraved weirdo? Really? This is your response? Shows how empty your virtue signalling really is. 1
The Nehor Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Ipod Touch said: Really? This is your response? No, my account was hacked. 2
Calm Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 33 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said: you are literally accusing DezNat of being white nationalists because they use a stupid hash tag. You are accusing young people of being racists and not just young and stupid. You should be ashamed of yourself. How is this not its own form of virtue signaling? 2
Ipod Touch Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Calm said: How is this not its own form of virtue signaling? You are right. I'll own it. I am virtue signalling that grown adults shouldn't smear young people because -- let's be honest here -- they disagree with their politics. 1
Dan McClellan Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 36 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said: Ok Boomer I was born in 1980. Quote Your pearl clutching illustrates the point. Absurd moral outrage doesn't help solve the problem of actual racism and actual white supremacy. There you go insisting that white folks are the ones who get to decide what is "actual racism and actual white supremacy." Quote Much easier to attack young people than actually do the hard work of trying to address these social ills. I've run for office twice, chaired a school community council, and have spent a decade studying racism and advocating for anti-racism in all kinds of different fora. I'm not attacking young people, I'm advocating for an informed approach to anti-racism. You're just trying to frame things in a way that serves your short-term rhetorical goals, which are definitely not anti-racist. Quote But continue to virtue signal, Dan. I'm not virtue signaling any more than you are. 1
Dan McClellan Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Ipod Touch said: You are right. I'll own it. I am virtue signalling that grown adults shouldn't smear young people because -- let's be honest here -- they disagree with their politics. Yeah, it's definitely not that. I have plenty of conservative friends I respect and do not at all think are racist, and I have known plenty of progressive people who have been wildly racist. You seem to think you have a grip on the world because you have strong feelings and have found rhetoric that resonates with those feelings, but the kind of rhetoric you're promoting is the poster child for Dunning-Kruger. You simply do not have the foggiest idea just how little you know about racism and how to combat it. Edited December 17, 2020 by Dan McClellan 1
Tacenda Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 36 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said: This is absolute nonsense. You are illustrating our current moral panic. A young adult being edgy and saying stupid things isn't "the single largest threat to domestic tranquility." Just because you say it, doesn't make it true. Give me a break and get out of your bubble. I understand a little of what you mean. But we are long past knowing better now. In my youth we'd say racist things without realizing it and I'm embarrassed to say. I'm glad that someone didn't come down hard on me as a youth, or keep me out of a certain school etc. Or forever label myself as a racist for a dumb comment that was handed down to me. That's why now we need to crush the comments that are racist. Not crush the youth that may be saying these things, but somehow break the stupid chain. It almost feels like we're going backwards in this regard ever since the last four years of giving the okay for groups like the white nationalist. I think there are limits to our freedoms. If there wasn't where would we be?
Ipod Touch Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Dan McClellan said: There you go insisting that white folks are the ones who get to decide what is "actual racism and actual white supremacy." I'm not white. I'm quite brown. But thanks for illustrating that you don't think a brown person can disagree with you. That's racist right there. Amirite? Am I playing this game correctly? And I'm confused, aren't you a white person who is deciding what is actual racism and white supremacy? 4 minutes ago, Dan McClellan said: I've run for office twice, chaired a school community council, and have spent a decade studying racism and advocating for anti-racism in all kinds of different fora. I'm not attacking young people, I'm advocating for an informed approach to anti-racism. You're just trying to frame things in a way that serves your short-term rhetorical goals, which are definitely not anti-racist. The fact you are a politician isn't lost on me. You are using this issue to support your own political aims. It isn't a coincidence that Deznat is on the opposite of the political spectrum from you. Also, I wont' fall for your rhetorical trick. You certainly can't accuse me (a brown person!) of being racist. So you say that I'm not "anti-racist." Glad to see you have been reading Ibram Kendi and Robin DiAngelo.
Ipod Touch Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 5 minutes ago, Tacenda said: That's why now we need to crush the comments that are racist. Not crush the youth that may be saying these things, but somehow break the stupid chain. I agree with this. But it is important to note that comments do not equal an existential threat to our Republic.
Ipod Touch Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Dan McClellan said: You simply do not have the foggiest idea just how little you know about racism and how to combat it. Yes, Dan. As a brown person I have absolutely no idea what racism is or what it looks like. Can you whitesplain to me some more? If I am to believe Ibram Kendi, this makes you the racist. Edited December 17, 2020 by Ipod Touch
The Nehor Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 6 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said: You certainly can't accuse me (a brown person!) of being racist. I can. Racist. 1
Dan McClellan Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said: Tell that to the young man who said the N-word in a google document in High School and then lost his admittance to Harvard. Students claimed his presence on campus would "literally threaten their safety." That is absolutely insane. Or tell it to the young lady who was invited up on stage to sing a song with Kendrick Lamar. The song included the N-word. Lamar set this girl up and then took the time to publicly shame her for singing the lyrics of his own song! Get out of here with your nonsense that there isn't absolute moral panic about this. If we can't differentiate between the jackholes of "Patriot Prayer" using the word, and a young person using the word singing a song or trying to be edgy, we are being incredibly foolish and unnecessarily hurting young people. No, there's an enormous difference between consequences for doing something wrong and believing these folks are all budding Klan members. I used to use the word myself when I was younger, and I was called out for it in a firm and direct way. I apologized and I learned about my responsibilities in a pluralistic society. The people who called me out remained my friends and did not think I was a budding Klan member. They knew I made a mistake, and I suffered consequences for it and then grew as a result. We live in a world where no white young adult has an excuse for thinking it's acceptable to use that word, so they are knowingly pushing boundaries if they do. If they suffer consequences, they can learn from them, or they can try to destroy the frameworks that imposed those consequences. One of those things promotes anti-racism and the other is rhetorical prophylaxis for white supremacy. You're simply and indisputably wrong about the notion that being called out for using the n-word equates to thinking anyone who uses it is a budding Klan member, but you don't want to acknowledge that because if you do, it takes away a strong rhetorical bludgeon that you can use to justify and defend casual racism. The sooner you get over that, the less entrenched you will be in a racist worldview when called to account. Also, you flatly misrepresented Kendrick Lamar. He did not publicly shame her, he asked her to "bleep one single word" and then gave her a chance to sing the song again. He did not say she was a budding Klan member, he acknowledged a mistake and then gave her an opportunity to fix it. Quote https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-44209141 When I was 20, I opposed gay marriage. I once told someone "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." Looking back, I am embarrassed I ever said this. And I"m just glad moral busy-bodies like yourself weren't around to hear it, and then use it to "cancel" me because I represent a threat to society. I used to use homophobic slurs a lot when I was young, and then one time a friend called me out for it direct and firmly. It embarrassed me, but they didn't stop being my friend, and it was precisely the jolt I needed to get over feeling the need to use that word. Nobody got "cancelled." If nobody ever faces consequences for doing these things, they will continue to do them, thinking they are ok. We cannot just demand no one oppose the us of racial or homophobic slurs on the grounds that any push-back at all constitutes inappropriate "cancel culture." All that does is enable and facilitate the perpetuation of those slurs. Quote I was a young stupid kid. I said a stupid thing. It is disgusting that YOU are willing to destroy the lives of young people because you (absurdly) think that they represent and existential threat. Yeah, you need to save the histrionics. This isn't about destroying lives, it's about course corrections. Framing it as destroying lives prevents those course corrections and perpetuates the problems. That's not really your call to make, too. Quote And you are literally accusing DezNat of being white nationalists because they use a stupid hash tag. No, it's not because of a hashtag, it's because of all the white nationalism. Quote You are accusing young people of being racists and not just young and stupid. You should be ashamed of yourself. Feigning indignation isn't gonna buttress your poor rhetoric. Do better. Edited December 17, 2020 by Dan McClellan 1
Meadowchik Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 53 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said: This is absolute nonsense. You are illustrating our current moral panic. A young adult being edgy and saying stupid things isn't "the single largest threat to domestic tranquility." Just because you say it, doesn't make it true. Give me a break and get out of your bubble. You disagree with the claim that white supremacist nationalism is the largest threat to domestic tranquility right now? The current data seems to be solid that it is. Deznat might be a softer version of the trends, but it feeds into the same sentiments.
Dan McClellan Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 5 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said: Yes, Dan. As a brown person I have absolutely no idea what racism is or what it looks like. Certainly not anti-Black racism. You've not said anything that betrays even rudimentary familiarity with the concept as it operates above the colloquial level. I'm happy to be demonstrated to be wrong. Quote Can you whitesplain to me some more? If I am to believe Ibram Kendi, this makes you the racist. We're all enablers of racism in one form or another. I don't think you understand Kendi or this issue quite as well as you want me to think you do, and trying to use accusations of racism as rhetorical deflection only further supports my suspicions. Can you show me I'm wrong? 1
Ipod Touch Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Meadowchik said: The current data seems to be solid that it is. Um, this article is about the *anarchist* group who wanted to kidnap the governor. Some of these people actually participated BLM protests this summer.
Dan McClellan Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 13 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said: I'm not white. I'm quite brown. But thanks for illustrating that you don't think a brown person can disagree with you. Didn't anywhere say a brown person couldn't disagree with me. Quote That's racist right there. Amirite? Am I playing this game correctly? It would be if I had suggested that no brown person could disagree. Quote And I'm confused, aren't you a white person who is deciding what is actual racism and white supremacy? No, I'm a white person pointing to the findings of decades of research and scholarship from minority communities. These findings are not mine. I'm just reporting on the consensus. I am a linguist and have a lot to say about what these terms mean and how they're used, and that's absolutely my prerogative to share. Quote The fact you are a politician isn't lost on me. I'm not a politician. I'm a scripture translation supervisor. I ran for office not to be a politician, but to try to make politics less political. Quote You are using this issue to support your own political aims. It isn't a coincidence that Deznat is on the opposite of the political spectrum from you. No, I'm commenting on an issue that affects me and those people around me directly, and I'm leveraging my expertise as a student of language and of identity politics. Quote Also, I wont' fall for your rhetorical trick. You certainly can't accuse me (a brown person!) of being racist. The notion that brown people can't be racist is just laughably naive. Racism is about institutions and systems, not just personal prejudices (of course, a person can develop prejudices against the race with which they identify, too, I'm just pointing out that's not what racism is). Quote So you say that I'm not "anti-racist." Glad to see you have been reading Ibram Kendi and Robin DiAngelo. I've read Kendi, but I'm not a huge fan of DiAngelo. I've read well beyond two popular authors, though, and it doesn't appear you've read either. "Anti-racism" is not limited to those two authors, but I can see how someone who hasn't done much research might assume that's where people get the term.
Ipod Touch Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Dan McClellan said: Can you show me I'm wrong? Yes. You are a white person, explaining to a brown person, what racism is. I appreciate the input, but I've experienced racism. I know what it is. 3 minutes ago, Dan McClellan said: I don't think you understand Kendi or this issue quite as well as you want me to think you do, and trying to use accusations of racism as rhetorical deflection only further supports my suspicions. I've read Kendi and listened to a few of his talks. This makes me no expert, but I think I have a fairly good idea of what his views are. And for the record, I'm not accusing you of being a racist. I'm showing how easy it is to play the game of calling other people racist. According to Kendi, you are in no position to impose your (white) views on my (brown) lived experience. I think this notion is absurd. And this is illustrated by how I can use Kendi and DiAngelo's logic to accuse you of being a racist. 7 minutes ago, Dan McClellan said: Certainly not anti-Black racism. You've not said anything that betrays even rudimentary familiarity with the concept as it operates above the colloquial level. I'm happy to be demonstrated to be wrong. I simply reject the modern notion of "anti-racism." It is a political tool used against political opponents. 1
Dan McClellan Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Ipod Touch said: This is absolute nonsense. You are illustrating our current moral panic. A young adult being edgy and saying stupid things isn't "the single largest threat to domestic tranquility." Just because you say it, doesn't make it true. Give me a break and get out of your bubble. The FBI, DHS, and other agencies all agree that white supremacy is the biggest domestic threat our country faces. I suggest you get better informed.
Ipod Touch Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, Dan McClellan said: It would be if I had suggested that no brown person could disagree. You assumed I was white.
Ipod Touch Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 Just now, Dan McClellan said: The FBI, DHS, and other agencies I don't think this appeal to authority is very convincing. In the 1960s, the FBI thought the civil rights movement was a big threat to our domestic tranquility.
Meadowchik Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 5 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said: Um, this article is about the *anarchist* group who wanted to kidnap the governor. Some of these people actually participated BLM protests this summer. It's about the DHS assessment of white supremacist threats. From the Guardian article: Quote “The threat is serious and intense,” said Vanda Felbab-Brown, a terrorism and extremism expert at Brookings. “It is by far the most serious domestic danger in the US on many levels – the frequency of attacks, the level of recruitment, the scope of ambition of the groups and the wider political capital they are building.” If 2019 was the deadliest year in a quarter of a century for domestic terrorism in America, 2020 is shaping up to be the year that white supremacy spreads its wings. Groups are showing a degree of confidence unparalleled in the modern era. Agitators have seized the dual opportunities of the coronavirus pandemic and the Black Lives Matter protests to come out of the shadows and on to the streets. Even before the start of the pandemic, they were flexing their muscles. Felbab-Brown recalls attending the gun rally in Richmond, Virginia, in January that attracted thousands of extremists carrying semi-automatic assault rifles. “There were militia members from all across the US, Trump supporters with guns, gun rights supporters, all mixing together in large crowds. They drew energy from each other, enlarged their networks and emboldened their thinking – and that was before Covid.” Since the pandemic struck in late January, the rightwing surge has gathered pace. Armed groups of extremists have presented themselves as vigilante security guards, ostensibly protecting property during anti-police brutality protests but in reality confronting peaceful protesters and sowing chaos and violence that has culminated in loss of life. Though studies have noted the rise of far-right violence in the US as far back as 2007, there is one aspect of today’s political climate that makes the current threat level uniquely dangerous: Donald Trump. In the recent presidential debate with Joe Biden he notoriously declined to denounce the extremist group the Proud Boys, exhorting them to “stand back and stand by”. From the DHS document: Quote However, I am particularly concerned about white supremacist violent extremists who have been exceptionally lethal in their abhorrent, targeted attacks in recent years. I am proud of our work to prevent terrorizing tactics by domestic terrorists and violent extremists who seek to force ideological change in the United States through violence, death, and destruction.
Dan McClellan Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Ipod Touch said: Yes. You are a white person, explaining to a brown person, what racism is. I appreciate the input, but I've experienced racism. I know what it is. That's a pretty naive take. Being brown doesn't mean you magically have data to which white folks do not have access. You have absolutely experienced things that I can never experience, and will face obstacles in this world that I will never face, but that doesn't mean you have achieved an adequate understanding of the forces and systems responsible for those experiences. That understanding is available to all, and you have betrayed an abject ignorance of, and even an opposition to, it. Quote I've read Kendi and listened to a few of his talks. This makes me no expert, but I think I have a fairly good idea of what his views are. And for the record, I'm not accusing you of being a racist. I'm showing how easy it is to play the game of calling other people racist. I'm not playing that game. I'm taking the time to very carefully explain the issues with your approach, and your responding by barking petty and absurd rhetoric and pretending it's the same thing. Quote According to Kendi, you are in no position to impose your (white) views on my (brown) lived experience. I have imposed absolutely nothing whatsoever on your lived experience. I have criticized your grasp of the socio-structural forces at play. Quote I think this notion is absurd. And this is illustrated by how I can use Kendi and DiAngelo's logic to accuse you of being a racist. You have yet to actually use any of their logic in any way, you've just barked assertions that don't actually align with their positions. Quote I simply reject the modern notion of "anti-racism." It is a political tool used against political opponents. And your rejection is precisely a political tool used against political opponents. All public speech is political. We're all here playing identity politics, but some of us are quite a bit more informed about that than others. You clearly don't understand either Kendi or DiAngelo.
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