How would you make a covenant or two-way promise with God?

[AtlanticMike]

49 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That's a wonderful blessing.  But it doesn't mean that everyone, yourself included, will always get what they pray for.  Sometimes we ask for things that are not in our best interest to receive, even when they are good things.

Thank you for saying that it was a wonderful blessing, I appreciate that. To stay on topic of nuclearfuels thread, I firmly believe if you pray to God, your going to get something and most of the time your going to get for what you ask. I think Gods anxious and just waiting for you to ask. It's not as easy as asking for a lollipop and 10 seconds later your hit in the head with a falling lollipop. Most of time it's a door being opened so you to help you take advantage of a certain situation. You got to put in most of the work, he's just nudging you along, just like a parent Should, it's really simple once you realize there's nothing to fear in asking for blessings. I'm not forcing God to do anything, I'm asking then watching for opportunities, easy peezy!

[AtlanticMike]

15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I agree, after reading your post, I regretted posting but left it. I've done the same and prayed and was directed to do something that reaped benefit. And this surely helped my belief in God. So it wasn't very kind to try to put a blemish on your experience.

I didnt take it that way at all, it was a legitimate question. Thank you

[Ahab]

14 hours ago, Tacenda said:

If this is how you treat them, I'd rather not get any kind of inheritance that was hung over them like that.

God works the same way.  Your works determine the reward(s) he will give you.  He loves all of us the same and could not possibly love us any more than he already does.

[Kenngo1969]

This thread reminded me of this, from then-Elder Oaks:  https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/dallin-h-oaks/timing/

For what it's worth.  

 

Here's one, among several I could choose, of several good "money" quotes:

 

Quote

 

If we have faith in God and if we are committed to the fundamentals of keeping His commandments and putting Him first in our lives, we do not need to plan every single event—even every important event—and we should not feel rejected or depressed if some things—even some very important things—do not happen at the time we had planned or hoped or prayed.

Commit yourself to put the Lord first in your life, keep His commandments, and do what the Lord’s servants ask you to do. Then your feet are on the pathway to eternal life. Then it does not matter whether you are called to be a bishop or a Relief Society president, whether you are married or single, or whether you die tomorrow. You do not know what will happen. Do your best on what is fundamental and personal and then trust in the Lord and His timing.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Kenngo1969

[AtlanticMike]

Nuclearfuels, this is how I see your question being fulfilled. 

[bluebell]

35 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Thank you for saying that it was a wonderful blessing, I appreciate that. To stay on topic of nuclearfuels thread, I firmly believe if you pray to God, your going to get something and most of the time your going to get for what you ask. I think Gods anxious and just waiting for you to ask. It's not as easy as asking for a lollipop and 10 seconds later your hit in the head with a falling lollipop. Most of time it's a door being opened so you to help you take advantage of a certain situation. You got to put in most of the work, he's just nudging you along, just like a parent Should, it's really simple once you realize there's nothing to fear in asking for blessings. I'm not forcing God to do anything, I'm asking then watching for opportunities, easy peezy!

I completely agree that we don't need to fear asking for blessings.  We just need to be careful that we don't create a god in our own image that is going to lead to a faith crisis when our Father in Heaven does not behave the way we have decided He should always behave if He loves us. 

Knowing what my kids as for, and how often is it not in their best interest (or the best interest of others, as Calm pointed out), and knowing the difference between my ability to judge what is best for me and my Father in Heaven's, we'll have to agree to disagree on the issue.   

Edited December 29, 2020 by bluebell

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

I firmly believe if you pray to God, your going to get something and most of the time your going to get for what you ask.

Given the number of people I know who have asked for healing for themselves or others, I disagree that most of the time you get what you ask for.

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I completely agree that we don't need to fear asking for blessings.  We just need to be careful that we don't create a god in our own image that is going to lead to a faith crisis when our Father in Heaven does not behave the way we have decided He should always behave if He loves us. 

It's not about asking for blessings.  It's about having sufficient faith in God to receive the blessings he's already promised for obedience.  One of my favorite scriptures pointed this out.

Hebrews 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

It's not that our blessing come at Heavenly Father's whims.  If he promises something and we are faithful and obedient we WILL receive it on his timeline.  God simply cannot lie, so if an already promised blessing doesn't come it's either we didn't fulfill the requirement or it's not yet time.  I don't believe that all blessings are the result of God's fickle grace.  We influence directly through our actions the blessings he gives us.

The faith crisis comes when we either try to set the timing or think we've obeyed but haven't.  If we acknowledge those things and remain faithful the blessing will come.

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Given the number of people I know who have asked for healing for themselves or others, I disagree that most of the time you get what you ask for.

Then there are one of only a few options, some of which include:

1. They asked amiss and should not have sought healing
2. They didn't fulfill a requirement for the blessing
3. God lied in his promise that we would be healed
4. Insufficient faith as with the Apostles and the inability without fasting

Edited December 29, 2020 by JLHPROF

[Kenngo1969]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

It's not about asking for blessings.  It's about having sufficient faith in God to receive the blessings he's already promised for obedience.  One of my favorite scriptures pointed this out.

Hebrews 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

It's not that our blessing come at Heavenly Father's whims.  If he promises something and we are faithful and obedient we WILL receive it on his timeline.  God simply cannot lie, so if an already promised blessing doesn't come it's either we didn't fulfill the requirement or it's not yet time.  I don't believe that all blessings are the result of God's fickle grace.  We influence directly through our actions the blessings he gives us.

The faith crisis comes when we either try to set the timing or think we've obeyed but haven't.  If we acknowledge those things and remain faithful the blessing will come.

[Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.]

[bluebell]

25 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

It's not about asking for blessings.  It's about having sufficient faith in God to receive the blessings he's already promised for obedience.  One of my favorite scriptures pointed this out.

Hebrews 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

It's not that our blessing come at Heavenly Father's whims.  If he promises something and we are faithful and obedient we WILL receive it on his timeline.  God simply cannot lie, so if an already promised blessing doesn't come it's either we didn't fulfill the requirement or it's not yet time.  I don't believe that all blessings are the result of God's fickle grace.  We influence directly through our actions the blessings he gives us.

The faith crisis comes when we either try to set the timing or think we've obeyed but haven't.  If we acknowledge those things and remain faithful the blessing will come.

Yes, if He specifically promises us something we should have faith to receive, as Sarah did when she had faith that when God said she would have a child as an old woman it would happen.

But I’m talking about wanting something righteous that God hasn’t specifically told us we would personally  receive.

I’m speaking of the righteous woman who prays daily for a child for years and isn’t told by God she would have one, despite being worthy. 

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Insufficient faith as with the Apostles and the inability without fasting

Knowing my mother as I did, I have great doubt about that, especially given how God blessed her in other ways, while not healing her.

Quote

They asked amiss and should not have sought healing

How can it be wrong to ask for healing, especially when the reason is to be a better mother, friend, spouse, servant of the Lord?

Edited December 29, 2020 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Yes, if He specifically promises us something we should have faith to receive, as Sarah did when she had faith that when God said she would have a child as an old woman it would happen.

But I’m talking about wanting something righteous that God hasn’t specifically told us we would personally  receive.

I’m speaking of the righteous woman who prays daily for a child for years and isn’t told by God she would have one, despite being worthy. 

I understand that.
So if God can't lie there must be another explanation.  Scripture provides us the options for a blessing being withheld.
Assuming God can't lie and the woman is worthy then one of the other reasons must be the cause.

[AtlanticMike]

24 minutes ago, Calm said:

Given the number of people I know who have asked for healing for themselves or others, I disagree that most of the time you get what you ask for.

Wow calm, I'll admit this is a tough one, especially since I dont know you or the people your talking about. But I'm going to assume that maybe you've had some health problems or possibly someone close to you has. So there's a good chance anything I say will come across as insensitive. No matter what what our age, health problems and eventually death is extremely hard to deal with. Let me leave you with this quote  incase you've never heard it before,  I love to think about it when ever I'm down and worried about life, for some reason it gives me hope, it's by Tecumseh. "" So live your life that the fear of death can never enter  your heart. Trouble no one about their religion.  Respect others in their view and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life,  beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and prosperous in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great divide. 

  When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their  lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home.""

     That's one of my favorite quotes, Tecumseh was a noble warrior and was a brave man. That's the best I got calm.

   

[JLHPROF]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

How can it be wrong to ask for healing, especially when the reason is to be a better mother, friend, spouse, servant of the Lord?

I think you know the gospel answer to that as well as I do when speaking in generalities. 
God may have needed it to be a trial of faith, a wiser purpose, a timing matter, or simply a life path that needed to be walked.
These could fall under asking amiss, ie, asking for something other than God's plan.

However, in your Mother's specific case I couldn't say.  But I know that would not be an easy burden.  

[Calm]

3 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Wow calm, I'll admit this is a tough one, especially since I dont know you or the people your talking about. But I'm going to assume that maybe you've had some health problems or possibly someone close to you has. So there's a good chance anything I say will come across as insensitive. No matter what what our age, health problems and eventually death is extremely hard to deal with. Let me leave you with this quote  incase you've never heard it before,  I love to think about it when ever I'm down and worried about life, for some reason it gives me hope, it's by Tecumseh. "" So live your life that the fear of death can never enter  your heart. Trouble no one about their religion.  Respect others in their view and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life,  beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and prosperous in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great divide. 

  When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their  lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home.""

     That's one of my favorite quotes, Tecumseh was a noble warrior and was a brave man. That's the best I got calm.

   

I am not the least bit bothered that God has his own timeline when it comes to healing, but thank you for your quote, it is a beautiful one.

I have seen too many blessings fulfilled, both immediate and delayed, to doubt that blessings not yet fulfilled will eventually be fulfilled in God’s time. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Calm

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

I understand that.
So if God can't lie there must be another explanation.  Scripture provides us the options for a blessing being withheld.
Assuming God can't lie and the woman is worthy then one of the other reasons must be the cause.

But you still haven't provided a scripture reference that supports the idea that if someone doesn't get a righteous desire there must be a cause other than it's not God's will at that time.

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Knowing my mother as I did, I have great doubt about that, especially given how God blessed her in other ways, while not healing her.

How can it be wrong to ask for healing, especially when the reason is to be a better mother, friend, spouse, servant of the Lord?

I don't know that, necessarily, it is wrong to ask for healing, but, a few years ago, Elder Bednar did speak of faith to not be healed.  (I know you know all of what follows, Calm.  I'm simply posting it for the benefit of others who may benefit from Elder Bednar's insights.)  Here is a link to his address: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/broadcasts/article/ces-devotionals/2013/01/that-we-might-not-shrink-d-c-19-18?lang=eng.  He spoke of a young couple, "John" and "Heather," who had just been sealed in the Temple when the young man found out he had cancer.  When first he was diagnosed, Elder Bednar visited "John" in the hospital and spoke of asking him some questions he had not planned on asking, one of which is whether the young man had faith to not be healed.

In part, Elder Bednar said:  

Quote

 

Righteousness and faith certainly are instrumental in moving mountains—if moving mountains accomplishes God’s purposes and is in accordance with His will. Righteousness and faith certainly are instrumental in healing the sick, deaf, or lame—if such healing accomplishes God’s purposes and is in accordance with His will. Thus, even with strong faith, many mountains will not be moved. And not all of the sick and infirm will be healed. If all opposition were curtailed, if all maladies were removed, then the primary purposes of the Father’s plan would be frustrated.

And this is how he concluded his remarks.

 

Quote

 

For many of you, their story is, has been, or could be your story. You are facing, have faced, or will yet face equivalent challenges in your lives with the same courage and spiritual perspective that John and Heather did. I do not know why some people learn the lessons of eternity through trial and suffering—while others learn similar lessons through rescue and healing. I do not know all of the reasons, all of the purposes, and I do not know everything about the Lord’s timing. With Nephi, you and I can say that we “do not know the meaning of all things” (1 Nephi 11:17).

 

But some things I absolutely do know. I know we are spirit sons and daughters of a loving Heavenly Father. I know the Eternal Father is the author of the plan of happiness. I know Jesus Christ is our Savior and Redeemer. I know Jesus enabled the Father’s plan through His infinite and eternal Atonement. I know that the Lord, who was “bruised, broken, [and] torn for us” (“Jesus of Nazareth, Savior and King,” Hymns, no. 181), can succor and strengthen “his people according to their infirmities” (Alma 7:12). And I know one of the greatest blessings of mortality is to not shrink and to allow our individual will to be “swallowed up in the will of the Father” (Mosiah 15:7).

 

Though I do not know everything about how and when and where and why these blessings occur, I do know and I witness they are real. I testify that all of these things are true—and that we know enough by the power of the Holy Ghost to bear sure witness of their divinity, reality, and efficacy. My beloved brothers and sisters, I invoke upon you this blessing: even that as you press forward in your lives with steadfast faith in Christ, you will have the capacity to not shrink. I bear this witness and I invoke this blessing in the sacred name of the Lord Jesus Christ, amen.

 

 

[Islander]

On 12/22/2020 at 11:02 PM, JLHPROF said:

It's been a while since I saw such false doctrine from a Church member.  (I am remembering you're a member correctly right?)  This is pure protestantism, the very attitude that the restoration clarified.

What happens is that I am not an LDS gnostic. I actually study the scriptures. ALL the scriptures. And in all the scriptures, OT, NT, BM you can see (if you study) that the word of God is reiterated. Here is my response to the OP:

We are ALL indebted to our Heavenly Father for everything and I quoted scripture to the point. But you continue bent on yourm prideful belief that you can be "righteous", stand alone and independently of God and, somehow, derive blessings, from somewhere on account of that. That is what the pharisees believe in regards to the Law of Moses and Jesus. They thought that salvation came from "obedience" to the Law. The problem is NOBODY can keep the law perfectly and all the law does is point your sin and the fact that you can't keep it. 

"For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not." Eccl 7:20

"The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Psa 14:2-3

"Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts." Isa 6:5

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.1 John 1:8-10

"Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great goodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O wretched man that I am! Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities. I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset me. And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted." 2 Ne 4:17-19 (One of my very favorite scriptures)

"O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods. Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires." Ether 3:2

So, believe what you may, but it is evidently clear from scripture that every blessing we receive comes by the grace of God. Without a broken heart and contrite spirit that manifest itself in quiet, faithful, humble obedience, we are nothing and are nothing before Him that is EVERYTHING. You see, your pride leads you to believe that you have any kind of righteousness that deserves anything. It all makes evident that you do not know the scriptures.

But, alas, I leave you with my favorite scripture from the Book of Mormon:

"And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be meek, and lowly of heart.  If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have [love]; for if he have not [love] he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have [love]." Mor  7:43-44

The pure love of Christ in our hearts and radiating out to everything and everyone is the righteousness of Christ in us. That is how and (the ONLY) way we become righteous. 

[Islander]

On 12/27/2020 at 9:21 PM, nuclearfuels said:

You're funny. 

Line upon Line: D&C 130:20–21

www.churchofjesuschrist.org › new-era › 2010/10 › lin...

 

1.  

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated. Irrevocably decreed. Irrevocably—unchangeably

That talks about discipline. If you want to receive a testimony of tithing and be blessed in general in your life, you MUST be faithful and obedient and live the law of tithing. That does not mean that you can "force" God to bless you or extract a blessing from God on account of obedience. There are theological and practical reasons for it. Observance of the "outward performances" did not save Israel. Obedience MUST be driven by faith, love and gratitude for the grace of God in our lives. Just ritual, practice or mere ordinance is a vain endevour. The Lord is absolutely into pure motivations. He wants to change what is in our hearts that drives behavior, rather than practice or obedience for its own sake.

"O what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow." Isa 1:11-17

"And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be meek, and lowly of heart. If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have [love}; for if he have not [love] he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have [love]." Mor 7:43-44

In other words, is the love for God, the things of God and the people of God (which includes the enemies of God by the way) is the primary trait and defining characteristic of a true disciple. Not obedience. Obedience is the byproduct of faith not the objective of it.

 

[AtlanticMike]

8 hours ago, Islander said:

That talks about discipline. If you want to receive a testimony of tithing and be blessed in general in your life, you MUST be faithful and obedient and live the law of tithing. That does not mean that you can "force" God to bless you or extract a blessing from God on account of obedience. There are theological and practical reasons for it. Observance of the "outward performances" did not save Israel. Obedience MUST be driven by faith, love and gratitude for the grace of God in our lives. Just ritual, practice or mere ordinance is a vain endevour. The Lord is absolutely into pure motivations. He wants to change what is in our hearts that drives behavior, rather than practice or obedience for its own sake.

"O what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow." Isa 1:11-17

"And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be meek, and lowly of heart. If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have [love}; for if he have not [love] he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have [love]." Mor 7:43-44

In other words, is the love for God, the things of God and the people of God (which includes the enemies of God by the way) is the primary trait and defining characteristic of a true disciple. Not obedience. Obedience is the byproduct of faith not the objective of it.

 

Your last paragraph you say, obedience is the by product of faith not the objective of it. In my opinion, you couldn't be further from the truth. Obedience can bring you to faith. I know a painter who was addicted to cocaine, was so low he was considering suicide. One day his brother took him to see his pastor to discuss what was going on in his life. He told the pastor he couldn't feel anything inside and was over living, life had nothing to offer. The pastor took the guy under his wing and asked him to give him 4 weeks to change his mind, 4 weeks, before he kills himself. The only thing he asked, was the guy do exactly what he says no matter if he thought it was a ridiculous endeavor. With absolutely no faith, no will to live, the guy followed the pastors instructions and miraculously around 10 or so weeks later, he was a regular at Sunday services. He's a faithful member of that church and he now has faith in god, it came through obedience and the direction of a pastor, not the other way around. I would suggest, dont limit God. He will use whatever means neccessary to bring you back to him. He's one smart cookie. Also, there's many talks from apostles on the bearing of testimony without having a testimony. They reccomend doing it, not waiting till you have one, then bear your testimony. Because they also recognize, it's not how you get back to God that's important,  it's that you get there, and there's 1000s of paths, not just one, like you describe.

[JLHPROF]

10 hours ago, Islander said:

In other words, is the love for God, the things of God and the people of God (which includes the enemies of God by the way) is the primary trait and defining characteristic of a true disciple. Not obedience. 

If you love me keep my commandments.

You can't love God if you don't obey.  It's one of those laws upon which the blessing is predicated.

D&C 58:2 For verily I say unto you, blessed is he that keepeth my commandments, whether in life or in death; and he that is faithful in tribulation, the reward of the same is greater in the kingdom of heaven.

Moriah 2:41 And moreover, I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven, that thereby they may dwell with God in a state of never-ending happiness. O remember, remember that these things are true; for the Lord God hath spoken it.

Edited December 31, 2020 by JLHPROF

[Islander]

On 12/31/2020 at 5:30 AM, AtlanticMike said:

Your last paragraph you say, obedience is the by product of faith not the objective of it. In my opinion, you couldn't be further from the truth. Obedience can bring you to faith. I know a painter who was addicted to cocaine, was so low he was considering suicide. One day his brother took him to see his pastor to discuss what was going on in his life. He told the pastor he couldn't feel anything inside and was over living, life had nothing to offer. The pastor took the guy under his wing and asked him to give him 4 weeks to change his mind, 4 weeks, before he kills himself. The only thing he asked, was the guy do exactly what he says no matter if he thought it was a ridiculous endeavor. With absolutely no faith, no will to live, the guy followed the pastors instructions and miraculously around 10 or so weeks later, he was a regular at Sunday services. He's a faithful member of that church and he now has faith in god, it came through obedience and the direction of a pastor, not the other way around. I would suggest, dont limit God. He will use whatever means neccessary to bring you back to him. He's one smart cookie. Also, there's many talks from apostles on the bearing of testimony without having a testimony. They reccomend doing it, not waiting till you have one, then bear your testimony. Because they also recognize, it's not how you get back to God that's important,  it's that you get there, and there's 1000s of paths, not just one, like you describe.

Why would you obey if you don't believe?  How would you live a principle, walk in the dark or hold on if you don't have faith. 

The problem is that you do not see the hand of God in the painter's turn around. It is the Spirit who stirs our heart. You MUST have faith, even if it is as small as a mustard seed. The painter HAD to have some modicum of faith in order to obey or otherwise there was absolutely no reason to follow thru! 

The ability to believe is a gift of God. I keep pointing to the scriptures but you believe that man, on its own, is capable of seeking after God. That is impossible. The Fall cased us to be DEAD spiritually. ("...we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually...Ether 3:2), It is our Heavenly Father whom provides the spiritual stirrings (small as they may be) that allows faith to take root. "By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, so that no one may boast." Eph 2:8-9.

There is only ONE path to God. the Prophet Joseph Smith declared, “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 121). Without a testimony and faith in the salvation that is in Christ, there is no salvation. And He marked the path to follow. We must do as He did and love as He loved: If you believe that there is some other way, except the way that He pointed to, that is another gospel of your own making. 

[Islander]

On 12/31/2020 at 7:35 AM, JLHPROF said:

If you love me keep my commandments.

You can't love God if you don't obey.  It's one of those laws upon which the blessing is predicated.

D&C 58:2 For verily I say unto you, blessed is he that keepeth my commandments, whether in life or in death; and he that is faithful in tribulation, the reward of the same is greater in the kingdom of heaven.

Moriah 2:41 And moreover, I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven, that thereby they may dwell with God in a state of never-ending happiness. O remember, remember that these things are true; for the Lord God hath spoken it.

I guess you do not understand the scriptures you just quoted. Love presupposes everything. If we LOVE, of course we will obey. If you disobey is the evidence that DO NOT love. And those that LOVE the Lord and  thus obey Him are blessed. 

I pointed to you from scriptures how God rejected "practical obedience" (sacrifice, ritual, liturgy) without love but you ignored it because it does not fit your man-made theology. 

[AtlanticMike]

2 hours ago, Islander said:

Why would you obey if you don't believe?  How would you live a principle, walk in the dark or hold on if you don't have faith. 

The problem is that you do not see the hand of God in the painter's turn around. It is the Spirit who stirs our heart. You MUST have faith, even if it is as small as a mustard seed. The painter HAD to have some modicum of faith in order to obey or otherwise there was absolutely no reason to follow thru! 

The ability to believe is a gift of God. I keep pointing to the scriptures but you believe that man, on its own, is capable of seeking after God. That is impossible. The Fall cased us to be DEAD spiritually. ("...we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually...Ether 3:2), It is our Heavenly Father whom provides the spiritual stirrings (small as they may be) that allows faith to take root. "By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, so that no one may boast." Eph 2:8-9.

There is only ONE path to God. the Prophet Joseph Smith declared, “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 121). Without a testimony and faith in the salvation that is in Christ, there is no salvation. And He marked the path to follow. We must do as He did and love as He loved: If you believe that there is some other way, except the way that He pointed to, that is another gospel of your own making. 

You asked, why would you obey if you dont believe? Well, because it works, it can bring you to a relationship with christ. Actually, isnt that exactly how converts are taught? When a missionary knocks on a door that person doesn't have faith yet. But through the lessons and following the direction of the missionaries (obeying their guidance) they can eventually gain a testimony (faith, belief).  Many people have been brought to a relationship with jesus in the church and in christianity by following the guidance of someone else, putting their trust in someone besides god until their able to kindle a relationship on their own with him. The path isnt as narrow as you make it out to be.