Are men staying single more nowadays?

[Stargazer]

On 11/30/2020 at 6:10 AM, poptart said:

Really?  No one seemed to care at all about how I was growing up, to all appearances I was the white trash kid who didn't matter.

I'm very sorry for your experiences! You've mentioned them from time to time here, and I admire you for being able to deal with what has been handed you. 

You do know that what happens out of other peoples' sight is unseen and frequently unrecognized? If others saw what was being done to you and failed to act, then they share a degree of blame for it. But if they did not know they cannot be held to account.  Did not anyone see what was being done to you? If they did see, and did nothing, then they needed their ... ahem ... kicked.

[poptart]

On 12/1/2020 at 7:58 AM, Stargazer said:

I'm very sorry for your experiences! You've mentioned them from time to time here, and I admire you for being able to deal with what has been handed you. 

You do know that what happens out of other peoples' sight is unseen and frequently unrecognized? If others saw what was being done to you and failed to act, then they share a degree of blame for it. But if they did not know they cannot be held to account.  Did not anyone see what was being done to you? If they did see, and did nothing, then they needed their ... ahem ... kicked.

That's why I live the way I do, there are a lot of triggers out there I have to watch out for.  It's so easy for someone to ruin you, with what I have against me I live as low key as I do and avoid things here like the drama WASP suburbanites deal with.  I've left orgs because they're full of WASP families, drama and all.  It's too triggering, that and I despise their racism. 

Ohh they saw it, I wasn't the only kid I knew growing up who had it that bad.  I'll share this, I knew a priest who was a vietnam veteran, he had been a Jesuit for like, 30 years.  Anyway, I asked him once about child abuse and he was quite honest, the Catholic Church and a lot of religious orgs here stateside have had that problem for decades.  The church knew about it and looked the other way.  Here's the thing, the parents knew too.  It's always been this way, so long as their kid doesn't get raped, gets a good education and gets into a good uni, they don't care what happens to anyone elses child.  They will lie through their teeth and deny deny deny, it is what it is.  If the USA did what other countries like Germany does for child welfare we'd have far fewer problems, thing is Americans in general have been entitled lying backstabbers for a while now, all you have to do is take a good look at our society to figure that one out.  I have no sympathy for the hell that's about to fall on WASP families and suburbs, they so deserve it.   I take a look at things like this and it just solidifies my feelings.  You guys did the right thing with family values, I do think this guys wife knew what he was doing but her kids were benefiting from the good things the LDS church does for her members, now that her husbands actions finally caught up to him she feels entitled to sue.  Most Mormons I know understand how good they've got it.  Most religious orgs here are dying due to politics and backstabbing, you guys know what it's like to be persecuted and remind your kids about it.  Makes me sick when I see stuff like this.

https://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/crime/2020/01/08/turner-woman-mormon-lds-church-child-sex-abuse-lawsuit-oregon/2832368001/

Edited December 2, 2020 by poptart

[Chum]

On 11/23/2020 at 11:49 AM, juliann said:

Why do you think this is?

I suspect because of the mental acuity required to complete the countless byzantine steps involved with achieving US citizenship.

[Chum]

On 11/22/2020 at 7:16 PM, poptart said:

Is it me or are more men staying single nowadays?  I run with a different class of people than I think a lot of you guys do so it's a bit of an artificial bubble.  Thought i'd step out of my echo chamber and ask here.  Thanks!

As an older, divorcing male, my expected singleness comes down to kids - mine and maybe others.

I've 5 sons; my youngest graduates HS soon. We'll all be living together for a while yet as the job market is (and has been) magnitudes less viable than what I grew up with. Everything I knew to succeed is wrong for this market and a better way isn't charted yet. Just to clarify, it takes 3 full time incomes to support a household (of one person or six).

And, my ex did a lot of damage. Recovery from that takes time and resources. My time and resources.

Note: Wives-walking-out-on-families seems to be a thing here. Me and other dads on the ward were discussing forming a club or support group or something.

Regarding other kids: A while back I was forming an attachment to an exceptional woman w/ a daughter under 2. I'd love another turn at that phase of familyhood. But what I missed at first (blinded really) was that the welfare of her daughter needed to outweigh everything. As in, the seven of us would need to subsist on what's that little girl doesn't need. Regretfully, I could not see a path to make it work.

For a woman w/o kids the equation flips most of the way over. She'd be entering a family with a lot of need. My kids aren't young; some selfishness is okay. Still though, taking us all on is taking on a lot. Objectively, it looks like we'd be asking more than we'd be giving.

Maybe I could join a fling ward.

 

[poptart]

11 minutes ago, Chum said:

As an older, divorcing male, my expected singleness comes down to kids - mine and maybe others.

I've 5 sons; my youngest graduates HS soon. We'll all be living together for a while yet as the job market is (and has been) magnitudes less viable than what I grew up with. Everything I knew to succeed is wrong for this market and a better way isn't charted yet. Just to clarify, it takes 3 full time incomes to support a household (of one person or six).

And, my ex did a lot of damage. Recovery from that takes time and resources. My time and resources.

Note: Wives-walking-out-on-families seems to be a thing here. Me and other dads on the ward were discussing forming a club or support group or something.

Regarding other kids: A while back I was forming an attachment to an exceptional woman w/ a daughter under 2. I'd love another turn at that phase of familyhood. But what I missed at first (blinded really) was that the welfare of her daughter needed to outweigh everything. As in, the seven of us would need to subsist on what's that little girl doesn't need. Regretfully, I could not see a path to make it work.

For a woman w/o kids the equation flips most of the way over. She'd be entering a family with a lot of need. My kids aren't young; some selfishness is okay. Still though, taking us all on is taking on a lot. Objectively, it looks like we'd be asking more than we'd be giving.

Maybe I could join a fling ward.

 

Other thing too, kids who grow up in living situations like that usually don't turn out like the kids from the more stable two parent households.  No one wants to come out and say it, lot of kids from the more unstable families grow up with a ton of resentment and often times become cold blooded adults.  Lot of us remember how we were treated as kids and have had it with how families here are.  What gets me is how more and more people have kids out of wedlock and assume society will always be there to throw money at them, sooner or later the money pool is going to dry up. I get it, life happens but the way I see it you brought children into this world, it's your job to raise them.  Sure seems concepts like personal responsibility and accountability are bad words to people here, it's why the smarter people just keep quiet anymore and let the idiots destroy themselves. 

 

 

[Chum]

5 minutes ago, poptart said:

Other thing too, kids who grow up in living situations like that usually don't turn out like the kids from the more stable two parent households. 

 

 

Just pointing out that my post was all about the damage done in a two parent household and how the damage stopped when it became a one parent household. I'll add that my wife also grew up in a two parent household. I did not - which was a blessing as my dad was a horrific monster.

My kids are unusually free of resentment because I don't harbor that kind of resentment. We clearly see how my ex made the choices she was capable of. She, however, was a geyser of resentment. Dividing the family reduced the risk of my kids being resentful.

[The Nehor]

On 11/29/2020 at 7:46 AM, Stargazer said:

I think that it is likely that anyone who abuses a child is, to some degree, mentally ill. It is so counter what seems to be the more natural tendency to want to protect children, even other people's children. 

I disagree. Some people are evil.

I am also not convinced that there is a huge interest in protecting children in general. You would think foster care and CPS (and equivalents) would be well funded if that were the case but they are not.

Edited December 8, 2020 by The Nehor

[poptart]

22 minutes ago, Chum said:

Just pointing out that my post was all about the damage done in a two parent household and how the damage stopped when it became a one parent household. I'll add that my wife also grew up in a two parent household. I did not - which was a blessing as my dad was a horrific monster.

My kids are unusually free of resentment because I don't harbor that kind of resentment. We clearly see how my ex made the choices she was capable of. She, however, was a geyser of resentment. Dividing the family reduced the risk of my kids being resentful.

I mean compared to how it used to be way back when and still is in other parts of the world.  The USA did a wonderful job of screwing their families up, my parents were also married and my childhood was pure hell, my father was a violent psychopath.  It's a harsh thing to say him dying was the best thing that ever happened between us, it was that bad.  Its good your children are free from resentment, stories like yours are all too common anymore.  This is why I think what's left of anglo america is kinda done, once you wreck your families to the point they have, it doesn't come back especially with the drug problems the USA has now.  That and the lack of rehab and the foolish refusal among some people to want to help people in those situations.

21 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I disagree. Some people are evil.

I am also not convinced that there is a huge interest in protecting children in general. You would think foster care and CPS (and equivalents) would be well funded if that were the case but they are not.

My thoughts exactly, some people are just plain evil. 

Think I mentioned this in the thread already, knew a priest who was very honest about sex abuse in the church, it's been like this in most orgs here for quite sometime.  For me, older I get more i figure things out like there's so much that people either refuse to talk about and in some cases just lie, child abuse is one of them.  So long as their kid does well in school, gets into a good uni and the parent gets theirs, they really don't care.  They'll pay lip service and spout flowery words but that's about it.  Thing is, now we've had a few generations of people grow up like I have and here we are, political/social divide and all.  I'm going to assume more than a few of the posters here are upper middle class and even you guys freak out at the direction US society is going and how more and more people like me care nothing for families here nor the rules/values they have.  If people would start caring more for the least of these we'd have fewer problems.  BTW, pretty  sure it's not only something Jesus would do, he did say something about it would be better for him to tie a stone round his neck and toss himself in the sea then to harm one of these little ones....

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Luke-17-2/

Here's another gem about providing for your family.  I love the bible...

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Timothy-5-8/

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by poptart

[Chum]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I disagree. Some people are evil.

I am also not convinced that there is a huge interest in protecting children in general. You would think foster care and CPS (and equivalents) would be well funded if that were the case but they are not.

My wife was an abusive parent and that was tied to her entrenched mental illnesses. I may represent another possibility, an abusive parent who was neither mentally ill nor patently evil.

Restating to be clear, I was an abusive parent to my sons. I lashed out at them, regularly, including in public. I hid nothing because I didn't consider my behavior abusive. That was self-deception. Reinforcing that deception: I was complimented, all the time, about what a great dad I was.

Was I mentally ill? Not more than average, I think. Am I evil? There are a lot of negative adjectives people could reasonably apply to me but I don't think anyone would choose that one.

Self assessments are dodgy by nature tho. If you want to gauge for yourself whether I'm mentally ill or evil, ask me anything.

[Calm]

50 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I disagree. Some people are evil.

I am also not convinced that there is a huge interest in protecting children in general. You would think foster care and CPS (and equivalents) would be well funded if that were the case but they are not.

Maybe like puppies and kittens. Out of sight, out of mind, but when hit by cuteness, care gushes. 

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Chum said:

That was self-deception.

What broke you out of that? 

[Chum]

36 minutes ago, poptart said:

I mean compared to how it used to be way back when and still is in other parts of the world. 

So I'm clear, do you see a time in the US when profound abuse of spouses and children wasn't freaking everywhere?

[Chum]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

What broke you out of that? 

I'm not clear. Only that I was finally able to hold onto enough of a realization of the harm I was doing.

It took a longish period of fairly drastic steps to develop empathy I could depend on.

[Chum]

Also if anyone ever wanted to just unload on an abusive parent, I'm good for that too.

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, Chum said:

I'm not clear. Only that I was finally able to hold onto enough of a realization of the harm I was doing.

It took a longish period of fairly drastic steps to develop empathy I could 

Impressive. 

[Stargazer]

On 12/8/2020 at 1:52 AM, The Nehor said:

I disagree. Some people are evil.

You're right. But evil people are frequently / almost always insane.  

On 12/8/2020 at 1:52 AM, The Nehor said:

I am also not convinced that there is a huge interest in protecting children in general. You would think foster care and CPS (and equivalents) would be well funded if that were the case but they are not.

And they frequently hire people who either don't care or who are utter control-freaks. 

But most people seeing a child in physical danger would risk their own safety to protect or rescue them.  That's what I'm talking about. It's a natural reflex.

Seeing a child in an abusive situation may not trigger the immediate danger response, though.

[katherine the great]

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

You're right. But evil people are frequently / almost always insane.

This is the social hall so not to debate, but really? I wholeheartedly disagree that evil people are almost always insane. Do you have any statistics that support that bold proclamation? They may usually have something missing (like empathy) but have seen lots of evil people who walk around daily doing mostly sane things (usually I see them on true crime shows). 

[Stargazer]

8 hours ago, katherine the great said:

This is the social hall so not to debate, but really? I wholeheartedly disagree that evil people are almost always insane. Do you have any statistics that support that bold proclamation? They may usually have something missing (like empathy) but have seen lots of evil people who walk around daily doing mostly sane things (usually I see them on true crime shows). 

I have no statistics on it. Don't think there are any statistics on it, because who collects numbers on this? It's just my opinion. And I don't think my opinion is necessarily correct, just that it might be, to a degree, and so we needn't debate over it. I think of Ted Bundy, for example, and there's a man who was evil, who flipping had to be insane. He too walked around doing mostly sane things (even joined the Church at one point). 

[cherryTreez]

The people that I know that are single are either too shy and struggle with that part of life or are to picky on what they want in a spouse.  

A few of the men want a ten (hot, beautiful, education, etc) and they are a five. They will complain about it while ignoring girls that like them because they are not the hottest.  I saw this all the time in the singles ward years and years ago. Most of them are still single almost 20 years later. 

[Chum]

11 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I wholeheartedly disagree that evil people are almost always insane.

I can hold my father up for a "Was this guy insane; was he evil?" debate. I can't speak to insane but there's a compelling argument that he was mentally ill, particularly in when considering his harmful judgment. As for evil - from his families' perspective he clearly was. He was a person of great and particular abilities and he channeled all of that into ruining the people entrusted to him.

Going back to the original point, I think we don't know what the Venn diagram of evil and insanity looks like. My guess is that insanity is a non-specific term we apply to people w/ an obvious inability to function in society. I also think evil has some fairly fuzzy boundaries.

That said, I think a question we're not quite reaching is "Are evil-doing people capable of better choices, in the moment, in the long run?"

[The Nehor]

21 hours ago, Stargazer said:

You're right. But evil people are frequently / almost always insane.  

I AM NOT INSANE!

[Chum]

2 hours ago, cherryTreez said:

A few of the men want a ten (hot, beautiful, education, etc) and they are a five. They will complain about it while ignoring girls that like them because they are not the hottest.  I saw this all the time in the singles ward years and years ago. Most of them are still single almost 20 years later. 

I don't know if it's the same for women but men retain some struggles maturing. Parts of me will always be a 6yo boy, with the reactions and reasoning that goes along with that.

[poptart]

2 hours ago, cherryTreez said:

The people that I know that are single are either too shy and struggle with that part of life or are to picky on what they want in a spouse.  

A few of the men want a ten (hot, beautiful, education, etc) and they are a five. They will complain about it while ignoring girls that like them because they are not the hottest.  I saw this all the time in the singles ward years and years ago. Most of them are still single almost 20 years later. 

I know men like that who had creative ways to go around that, they'd go on sex vacations to SE Asia and L.America.  Depending on your profession it's not too hard to go abroad to live and work, with the way things are going here I think we'll see more of that like the USA did in the 70s.  Also, people here esp. from my generations are becoming less attractive partner wise, they have children out of wedlock more often, have more mental issues, substance abuse issues yet feel entitled to something for nothing.  Know there's always a number of people who will still give people like that a try but there are a number of men like me who won't.  We didn't have the middle class, entitled WASP childhood and also like me while many of us are cultural Christians at best we're still on opposite ends of the American Christian fence.  I.E, we play by different rules and care little for the entitled and foolish, just as the same people often times had the same feelings for us growing up.  Will be interesting to see how the current social problems impact the institution of marriage, my single self will be watching from afar.

[katherine the great]

1 hour ago, Chum said:

. I can't speak to insane but there's a compelling argument that he was mentally ill

Sure! I’m all on board with the theory that certain types of mental illness increase the propensity for people to do things most most people consider evil. I also believe that most people who are “evil” lack empathy-a fundamentally human trait. But people who are truly insane don’t even know that what they’re doing is wrong. I don’t think a person can really be evil if they don’t know that what they’re doing is wrong.

[katherine the great]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I AM NOT INSANE!

No but you’re delightfully weird. 😄