The Father and the Son Appeared to Joseph Smith

[marineland]

This is from Lesson 22 (Religion 250 manual).

"Our entire case as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints rests on the 
validity of this glorious First Vision. ... Nothing on which we base our doctrine, nothing 
we teach, nothing we live by is of greater importance than this initial declaration. I submit 
that if Joseph Smith talked with God the Father and His Beloved Son, then all else of which 
he spoke is true".

Examining the logic of this statement, if Joseph Smith's teaching of God not being from 
everlasting to everlasting and that he was a man who became a God is false, would this 
mean the First Vision never really happened?

"To the youth listening today or reading these words in the days ahead, I give a specific 
challenge: Gain a personal witness of the Prophet Joseph Smith. … Read the testimony of 
the Prophet Joseph Smith in the Pearl of Great Price. … This is Joseph's own testimony of 
what actually occurred".

Do church leaders ever invite you to gain a personal witness of the Apostles Peter or Paul?

Tony
 

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, marineland said:

Do church leaders ever invite you to gain a personal witness of the Apostles Peter or Paul?

They constantly encourage us to gain a personal witness of the scriptures we read which includes the testimonies of these men, so pretty much the same thing.  There are those who phrase it even more precise as getting a personal witness for a specific scripture passage containing the words of an apostle or disciple or other leader teaching the gospel, but I can’t think of examples off the top of my head. 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Calm

[theplains]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

They constantly encourage us to gain a personal witness of the scriptures we read which includes the testimonies of these men, so pretty much the same thing.  There are those who phrase it even more precise as getting a personal witness for a specific scripture passage containing the words of an apostle or disciple or other leader teaching the gospel, but I can’t think of examples off the top of my head. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/36481_eng.pdf?lang=eng

Brigham Young and Joseph Smith seemed to downplay the importance of past scriptures, even those
that were contemporary with them.

Pages 198-199 (chapter 16)

"Brother Joseph turned to Brother Brigham Young and said, 'Brother Brigham, I want you to take 
the stand and tell us your views with regard to the [living] oracles and the written word of 
God.' Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible, and laid it down; he took the Book 
of Mormon, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down 
before him, and he said: 'There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God 
from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day. And now, said he, 'when compared with the 
living oracles those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct 
to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and 
generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books.' That was 
the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation: 'Brother 
Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth.' "

[teddyaware]

3 hours ago, marineland said:

This is from Lesson 22 (Religion 250 manual).

"Our entire case as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints rests on the 
validity of this glorious First Vision. ... Nothing on which we base our doctrine, nothing 
we teach, nothing we live by is of greater importance than this initial declaration. I submit 
that if Joseph Smith talked with God the Father and His Beloved Son, then all else of which 
he spoke is true".

Examining the logic of this statement, if Joseph Smith's teaching of God not being from 
everlasting to everlasting and that he was a man who became a God is false, would this 
mean the First Vision never really happened?

"To the youth listening today or reading these words in the days ahead, I give a specific 
challenge: Gain a personal witness of the Prophet Joseph Smith. … Read the testimony of 
the Prophet Joseph Smith in the Pearl of Great Price. … This is Joseph's own testimony of 
what actually occurred".

Do church leaders ever invite you to gain a personal witness of the Apostles Peter or Paul?

Tony
 

First of all, the Book of Mormon clearly and unambiguously teaches that God has existed from all eternity, and that there never was a time when there was no God. In fact, the Book of Mormon asserts that nothing at all could exist if there were no God... So In the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, God always was and always will be.

Secondly, if the same everlasting God chooses to fill one of his children, as a joint heir with Christ, with the eternal fulness of His perfect, uncreated Spirit of divine love, intelligence, wisdom and power, there is no reason at all why that individual should not function in the stead of God because he would never do, think or feel anything that God himself wouldn’t do, think or feel; and this because he’s filled with all the fulness of God, possessing, in eternal fulness, the same divine attributes that Christ possesses, and Christ is even as the Father.

In practical terms, if a son of God possesses all things that the Father Himself possesses, why shouldn’t he be entrusted to be seated upon a divine throne to rule over and judge the nations with a rod of iron, just as Christ does?

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2)

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3)

Edited October 16, 2020 by teddyaware

[theplains]

2 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

First of all, the Book of Mormon clearly and unambiguously teaches that God has has existed from all eternity, and that there never was a time when there was no God. In fact, the Book of Mormon asserts that nothing at all could exist if there were no God... So In the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, God always was and always will be.

"In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it
is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell
you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that
idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see."
(History of the Church, volume 6 - http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/History_of_the_Church/Vol_VI).

[teddyaware]

49 minutes ago, theplains said:

"In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it
is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell
you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that
idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see."
(History of the Church, volume 6 - http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/History_of_the_Church/Vol_VI).

He’s saying that though God indeed was from eternity, and that there never was a time when there was no God, the personage we call our God and Father grew into that role in much the same way Christ grew in wisdom, knowledge and stature, while on earth, until he, too, became perfect.

The point you’re missing is that the same uncreated divine spirit of love, light, truth, and power that animates Christ can, by the divine right of joint heirship, also dwell in eternal fulness within his sons and daughters. And if as joint heirs they are filled with the same eternal fulness of divine power, there is no reason why they shouldn’t be called to sit upon the throne of Christ and do the same works he does, even as he promised we would. 

It’s likely that the difference between your view and ours is while you believe God indeed does have the power to make his sons and daughters sinless, holy, powerful and quite godly, we believe he has the power, through the infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice of Christ, to enable his sons and daughters to be fully transformed to become even as he is. In other words, we believe he’s powerful enough to perfect the redemptive process.

Do you believe God lacks the transformative power to make his children as pure, holy, strong and loving as he is?  

Edited October 16, 2020 by teddyaware

[TheTanakas]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

"In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it
is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell
you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that
idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see."
(History of the Church, volume 6 - http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/History_of_the_Church/Vol_VI).

We don't worship that God.  Our Heavenly Father was once a man who became a God.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/36481_eng.pdf?lang=eng

Brigham Young and Joseph Smith seemed to downplay the importance of past scriptures, even those
that were contemporary with them.

Pages 198-199 (chapter 16)

"Brother Joseph turned to Brother Brigham Young and said, 'Brother Brigham, I want you to take 
the stand and tell us your views with regard to the [living] oracles and the written word of 
God.' Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible, and laid it down; he took the Book 
of Mormon, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down 
before him, and he said: 'There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God 
from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day. And now, said he, 'when compared with the 
living oracles those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct 
to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and 
generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books.' That was 
the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation: 'Brother 
Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth.' "

Accentuating the more valuable nature of one does not diminish from the importance of the other.   We are still asked to gain a testimony of the scriptures.  Calm spoke the truth. 

[pogi]

4 hours ago, marineland said:

Examining the logic of this statement, if Joseph Smith's teaching of God not being from 
everlasting to everlasting and that he was a man who became a God is false, would this 
mean the First Vision never really happened?

I'm not following your logic here. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/36481_eng.pdf?lang=eng

Brigham Young and Joseph Smith seemed to downplay the importance of past scriptures, even those
that were contemporary with them.

Prior to Come Follow Me, our Sunday School every week was studying “past scriptures”, two years out of four about the Bible. 
 

That past prophets are not considered as important as listening to what God intends you to listen today, this doesn’t in anyway signify that past scriptures aren’t very important as well or even essential.

Brigham was a special case in his extreme devotion to Joseph, but plenty of times emphasized scripture study. 
 

Quote

Every evening, President Brigham Young sounded the prayer bell and gathered his family around him to sing and hear counsel, study the word of God, and conduct family prayers. He believed in studying the scriptures and compared them to “a finger-post which points out the road we should travel. Where do they point? To the Fountain of light” (DBY,127). He exhorted the Saints: “Do you read the Scriptures, my brethren and sisters, as though you were writing them a thousand, two thousand, or five thousand years ago? Do you read them as though you stood in the place of the men who wrote them? If you do not feel thus, it is your privilege to do so, that you may be as familiar with the spirit and meaning of the written word of God as you are with your daily walk and conversation, or as you are with your workmen or with your households” (DBY,128).

 

Quote

It is your privilege and duty to live so as to be able to understand the things of God. There are the Old and New Testaments, the Book of Mormon, and the book of Doctrine and Covenants, which Joseph has given us, and they are of great worth to a person wandering in darkness. They are like a lighthouse in the ocean, or a finger-post which points out the road we should travel. Where do they point? To the Fountain of light (DBY, 127).

 

Quote

I believe the words of the Bible. … I believe the doctrines concerning salvation contained in that book are true, and that their observance will elevate any people, nation or family that dwells on the face of the earth. The doctrines contained in the Bible will lift to a superior condition all who observe them; they will impart to them knowledge, wisdom, charity, fill them with compassion and cause them to feel after the wants of those who are in distress, or in painful or degraded circumstances. They who observe the precepts contained in the Scriptures will be just and true and virtuous and peaceable at home and abroad. Follow out the doctrines of the Bible, and men will make splendid husbands, women excellent wives, and children will be obedient; they will make families happy and the nations wealthy and happy and lifted up above the things of this life (DBY, 125).

 

Quote

I say we take this book [the Bible] for our guide, for our rule of action; we take it as the foundation of our faith. It points the way to salvation like a fingerboard pointing to a city, or a map which designates the locality of mountains, rivers, or the latitude and longitude of any place on the surface of the earth that we desire to find, and we have no better sense than to believe it; hence, I say that the Latter-day Saints have the most natural faith and belief of any people on the face of the earth (DBY, 125).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-17?lang=eng

There are a number of more quotes in this chapter including specific to the Bible.
 

[theplains]

20 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Do you believe God lacks the transformative power to make his children as pure, holy, strong and loving as he is?

No. I don't believe God lacks this ability but Isaiah 43:10 teaches against this occuring.

"Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which
God hath prepared for them that love him."

In the Book of Mormon, I find 9 occurrences of "exalt" and its variants.  Which of them
means becoming a God?

[theplains]

20 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

We don't worship that God.  Our Heavenly Father was once a man who became a God.

Who atoned for his sins and the sins of his wife when they were growing up on
some other world?

[CV75]

On 10/16/2020 at 12:19 PM, marineland said:

This is from Lesson 22 (Religion 250 manual).

"Our entire case as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints rests on the 
validity of this glorious First Vision. ... Nothing on which we base our doctrine, nothing 
we teach, nothing we live by is of greater importance than this initial declaration. I submit 
that if Joseph Smith talked with God the Father and His Beloved Son, then all else of which 
he spoke is true".

Examining the logic of this statement, if Joseph Smith's teaching of God not being from 
everlasting to everlasting and that he was a man who became a God is false, would this 
mean the First Vision never really happened?

"To the youth listening today or reading these words in the days ahead, I give a specific 
challenge: Gain a personal witness of the Prophet Joseph Smith. … Read the testimony of 
the Prophet Joseph Smith in the Pearl of Great Price. … This is Joseph's own testimony of 
what actually occurred".

Do church leaders ever invite you to gain a personal witness of the Apostles Peter or Paul?

Tony
 

Regarding the logic: Joseph Smith saying something that was not true about God does not mean the First Vision did not happen (specific to the statement, his having talked with God the Father and His Beloved Son).

I do not recall and specific invitation about getting a personal witness of the Apostles Peter or Paul. That doesn't prevent anyone from seeking and obtaining one, it just doesn't have much to do directly with the actuality of the Restored Gospel, which is the case being made in this statement.