Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Rajah Manchou

No Longer Speculation. Native Americans Mixed With Polynesians.

Recommended Posts

9 minutes ago, USU78 said:

My grandfather, who missioned on Mau'i and the Big Island 1919-22, would be underwhelmed and unsurprised by this.  https://rsc.byu.edu/book-mormon-alma-testimony-word/hagoth-polynesians

It has been speculation among Mormons since the late 1830s, but this confirms it, so we no longer have to go round and round debating it.

What's more important, is that this opens up the possibility of cultural contacts between the Old World and the New World, before Europeans. The Austronesians were all over the place, migrating between Madagascar, the Comoros Islands, Egypt, the Arabian Peninsula, the East Indies, the Polynesian Islands, and now, South America.

But it’s more likely that Polynesians traveled to the northern coast of South America, says Keolu Fox, a genome scientist at UC San Diego. Polynesian voyagers frequently traveled between islands and could have journeyed to South America and back, perhaps multiple times, Fox says. “In the process, these Polynesians bring back the sweet potato, and they also bring back a small fragment of Native American DNA” from relationships on the mainland. “The ocean is not a barrier” for Polynesians, he says.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I think it is a general belief, or at least was a general belief, that Polynesians are Lamanites. I served a mission is the early 1980s in Polynesia and it was certainly generally held then that they were. I used to believe it when I believed in Lamanites. I still believe in Native Americans and Polynesians though. 

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, Boanerges said:

...............................I still believe in Native Americans and Polynesians though. 

Does that mean you won't be going on the next Malaysian Book of Mormon lands tour? 😎

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Does that mean you won't be going on the next Malaysian Book of Mormon lands tour? 😎

Haha. Interesting you say that because two weeks ago I finally had a long enough holiday to take a train down to the hill that Ralph Olsen identified as Hill Cumorah in the Malay Model

As the first person to officially complete the full Malaysian Book of Mormon lands tour from south to north, I confirm it is well worth the effort, regardless of your opinions on Book of Mormon geography.

Here's a pic of Maroni (Marong) Cave, not far from Hill Ramah (Maw). Marong/Maroni is a title given to warriors, including the warrior who founded the Rahma and Kommoriya city-states here during the Book of Mormon period.

TTRzRl2.jpg

Edited by Rajah Manchou
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

That looks beautifully cool. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Does that mean you won't be going on the next Malaysian Book of Mormon lands tour? 😎

I am likely to skip that and all other Book of Mormon geography events. I do have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and it does undoubtedly testify of Jesus Christ. Where or if any of it actually happened is immaterial to that testimony.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

So what do people think this means?

Share this post


Link to post
On 7/10/2020 at 9:06 PM, Rajah Manchou said:

.............................

As the first person to officially complete the full Malaysian Book of Mormon lands tour from south to north, I confirm it is well worth the effort, regardless of your opinions on Book of Mormon geography........................................

I was just watching a video which argues that the colossal heads and other sculptures of the Olmecs are clearly African in type.  Have you even given any thought to them being Austronesian or Asian?

frozabar-1280x720.jpg

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQeaXFd7FQ-RtbrKE3W5uy                                      Jadeite-mask-Olmec-culture-Mexico-New-Yo

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
17 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I was just watching a video which argues that the colossal heads and other sculptures of the Olmecs are clearly African in type. Have you even given any thought to them being Austronesian or Asian?

There's good reason to go back and reevaluate the arguments for these claims. The research of Betty Meggars comes to mind. It is curious that lost wax metallurgy, common in Asia, has a spontaneous origination in the same tribe (Sinu) that was found to admix with French Polynesia.

877a4b7d803945b7b98b67b45f8786c8.jpgAlso some of the more recent DNA papers that try to make sense of the presence of Asian, Polynesian and Austronesian DNA in South America. The 100% Polynesian DNA in the extinct Botocudo of Brazil is certainly worth looking at again.

Two ancient human genomes reveal Polynesian ancestry among the indigenous Botocudos of Brazil

The authors give 3 equally improbable explanations, but now that we know there was Trans-Pacific contact, the most logical explanation for Polynesian DNA in Brazil is that Polynesians reached South America at least 800 years ago.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Rajah Manchou said:

...................... It is curious that lost wax metallurgy, common in Asia, has a spontaneous origination in the same tribe (Sinu) that was found to admix with French Polynesia.........................

Yes.  Laurette Sejourne, Burning Water: Thought and Religion in Ancient Mexico (Grove Press, 1960), mentions cire perdue (lost wax technique).

See also Stanley Long, “Cire Perdue Copper Casting in Pre-Columbian Mexico: An Experimental Approach,” American Antiquity, 30/2 (Oct 1964):189-192, online at DOI: 10.2307/278850
https://www.jstor.org/stable/278850 , mentioning Sahagun's General History of the Things of New Spain, a Nahuatl text completed in 1555, containing an ethnographic description of cire perdue gold casting.

Marc N. Levine, “Ceramic Molds for Mixtec Gold: a New Lost-Wax Casting Technique from Prehispanic Mexico,” Journal of Archaeological Method and Theory, 26/1 (May 2018): online at
DOI: 10.1007/s10816-018-9377-z , and at https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324898279_Ceramic_Molds_for_Mixtec_Gold_a_New_Lost-Wax_Casting_Technique_from_Prehispanic_Mexico ,

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Interpreter carried a short notice on the Nature article, online at https://interpreterfoundation.org/new-study-finds-some-polynesians-carry-dna-of-ancient-native-americans/.

I've never had much interaction with comments on Interpreter. I've repeated everything below so many times that another post likely won't make much difference. But here goes:

As you know, my opinion is that the Book of Mormon was intended to be an account of the former inhabitants of the American continent and the isles in the sea from which they sprang. When we consider what the author(s) of the Book of Mormon would have known about the people in the islands, there's significant similarity (verisimiltude as Benjamin McGuire puts it) with the Book of Mormon peoples. 

Important to consider that the author of the Book of Mormon wouldn't know what a Polynesian was, he would have known them as Malay. Polynesians were known as Malay until 1842. Before they were known as Malay, they were known as Kumr and Rahmans, from the islands of Kamara/Comoro and Rahman, two nations resembling the geography of Cumorah and Rahma in the Book of Mormon. Gordon Thomasson argues that the word Mormon itself, which is first presented in the Book of Mormon as the Land of Mormon - a wilderness infested by wild beasts - has the Arabic root RMN.

rV4OvfK.png

Rahman (RMN) is a historical nation dating to 582 BC and founded be a warrior named Maroni. From the author's understanding this would have been the source population of the Polynesians in the isles of the sea who, as we now know, discovered America at least 300 years before Columbus.

Edited by Rajah Manchou
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
On 7/15/2020 at 3:39 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Have you even given any thought to them being Austronesian or Asian?

I just stumbled on an interesting paper. The language of the Jabbali people of the Dhofar region in Oman (Khor Rori and Khor Kharfot) appears to have heavy Austronesian influences. Not only Austronesian, but Malay and Kumr (Khmer) influence specifically. 

This potentially means that elements of the language of the people of "Bountiful" are from the same family as the people who discovered America 300 years before Columbus.

"In the recent decades only a few remarks about Modern South Arabian (MSA) lexis has appeared in the literature: for example, ogan (2015:546) describes MSA vocabulary as having a “peculiar aspect, at times so strikingly ‘non-Semitic’ that some sort of external influence (substratum or adstratum) might legitimately suggest itself as an explanatory model” ... The twofold aim of this chapter is, on the one hand, to describe the influence of Arabic on MSA lexis, and, on other hand, to propose Austronesian, and specifically, a pre-documentary phase of the Malagasy language (in its turn influenced by Malay and Javanese languages), which is part of the south-east Barito sub-group, as the source of some of the above-mentioned hitherto unidentifiable MSA lexical items, on the basis of formal and semantic correspondences, as well as of the historical and textual evidence of an Austronesian presence in the geographical area where MSA languages are spoken at present. The chapter is divided into two main sub-sections: the first one is devoted to the Arabic lexical interference in MSA, while the second one illustrates the hypothesis of an Austronesian influence."

A sketch of the Kuria Muria language variety and other aspects of Modern South Arabian

Edited by Rajah Manchou
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

I just stumbled on an interesting paper. The language of the Jabbali people of the Dhofar region in Oman (Khor Rori and Khor Kharfot) appears to have heavy Austronesian influences. Not only Austronesian, but Malay and Kumr (Khmer) influence specifically. 

This potentially means that elements of the language of the people of "Bountiful" are from the same family as the people who discovered America 300 years before Columbus.

........................................

That reminds me of the similarity to Book of Mormon Irreantum of some local terms for “sea”-- ráwrem in Meḥri, rémnem in Jibbali, and renhĕm in Socotri.[1]  Moreover, in the term Khor Kharfot “Kharfot Inlet” (at the mouth of Wadi Sayq in Oman), Kherfut is a Meḥri term meaning something like "abundance" (Warren Aston).[2]


 

[1] P. Bennett, Comparative Semitic Linguistics, 138:68.

[2] Warren P. Aston, “Across Arabia with Lehi and Sariah: ‘Truth Shall Spring out of the Earth’,” JBMS 15/2 (2006):8–25, 110, online at https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/jbms/ ; Warren P. Aston  and Michaela Aston, In the Footsteps of Lehi: New Evidence for Lehi's Journey across Arabia to Bountiful (Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book, 1994); Warren P. Aston, “Arabia’s Hidden Valley: A Unique Habitat in Dhofar Captures Arabia’s Past,” Wildlife Middle East News (WME), 6/4 (March 2013):2-4, online at http://www.wmenews.com/newsletters/1366812925wmenews _V6_I4_eng.pdf .

Edited by Robert F. Smith
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That reminds me of the similarity to Book of Mormon Irreantum of some local terms for “sea”-- ráwrem in Meḥri, rémnem in Jibbali, and renhĕm in Socotri. 

"Body of Water" (ráwrem, rémnem, renhĕm) is presented in the paper as having the Proto-Malayo-Polynesian root *danum with potential shift to *ranum, as it did in the Malagasy word for water ranu.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...