Preserving Religious Freedom in Time of Crisis: Remarks by Elder Bednar

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You seemed contemptuous of the advocacy in the editorial for lawmaking bodies to craft legislation now to safeguard religious liberties in the face of future pandemics, in effect telling religious freedom advocates that if they don’t like what’s going on, they should take their chances, such as they are, with litigation in courtrooms where activist judges preside. Viewing the judicial system (not the legislative branch of government) as an avenue of law making instead of law interpretation is a leftist sentiment. A robust legislative branch of government helps to keep the courts from being clogged with grievances. 

I am not talking about law making.  Why would we need to create new law if the claim is that religion is already protected by law in the constitution from such orders?  The claim is that the law was violated, not that there is no law to protect religion - and therefore one is needed.   If the claim is that the law was violated, then that should be settled in court (that is why we have them), not by making redundant legislation.  

The claim is that this is "unprecedented".  Well, it absolutely is not. 

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by pogi

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Agreed!  What happens if this blows up in Utah and our healthcare system is overrun?  What happens if the governor (right-wing and Latter-day Saint) closes church again to protect lives?  Elder Bednar said “never again”.  Will people disobey governor Herbert’s right to enact emergency measures to protect the people?  Elder Bednar is unjustly eliciting mistrust in a pandemic when government officials are rightly acting within their powers to protect.  I am very bothered by that.

I'm terribly disappointed in Elder Bednar right now, funny right, coming from an outsider now. But it's the Trump supporters that see his example that are not taking this serious enough, just watching the rallies is enough said. Now it's being reported that Europe isn't allowing USA non essential visitors possibly, not yet firmed up, so great, thanks Donald Trump and those that don't care to wear masks all in the name of freedom. Where did that get us, surely not much freedom now. We're an embarrassment to the world. I'm not leftest nor rightest, I'm a good in-between, where it's sane and reasonable.

Here's the report, great, I wonder what Elder Bednar will do when he wants to visit the Rome temple now, if he had any desire. Or the missionaries, or leaders that need to visit Europe for any church work. What kind of freedom is that Bednar? I wish he had more revelation or inspiration on the right thing to do. 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/23/politics/eu-us-coronavirus-travel/index.html

Edited June 24, 2020 by Tacenda

[pogi]

29 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm terribly disappointed in Elder Bednar right now, funny right, coming from an outsider now. But it's the Trump supporters that see his example that are not taking this serious enough, just watching the rallies is enough said. Now it's being reported that Europe isn't allowing USA non essential visitors possibly, not yet firmed up, so great, thanks Donald Trump and those that don't care to wear masks all in the name of freedom. Where did that get us, surely not much freedom now. We're an embarrassment to the world. I'm not leftest nor rightest, I'm a good in-between, where it's sane and reasonable.

Here's the report, great, I wonder what Elder Bednar will do when he wants to visit the Rome temple now, if he had any desire. Or the missionaries, or leaders that need to visit Europe for any church work. What kind of freedom is that Bednar? I wish he had more revelation or inspiration on the right thing to do. 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/23/politics/eu-us-coronavirus-travel/index.html

I think you are going a little far here to the point of mocking Elder Bednar, and getting too political in bashing the president and some of his supporters (although I don't think masks are a political issue - they are a public health issue). 

I love and respect Elder Bednar, and he has the right to speak his opinion, even if I disagree and am disappointed in this instance.  We should not misconstrue or expect every engagement an apostle speaks at to be anything other than his opinion. He does not speak for the church in these instances, nor is he expected to speak only by revelation.  

I also don't think that "we" are an embarrassment.  

But I do understand your disappointment. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by pogi

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think you are going a little far here to the point of mocking Elder Bednar, and getting too political in bashing the president and some of his supporters.

I love and respect Elder Bednar, and he has the right to speak his opinion, even if I disagree and am disappointed in this instance.  We should not misconstrue or expect every engagement an apostle speaks at to be anything other than his opinion. He does not speak for the church in these instances, nor is he expected to speak only by revelation.  

I also don't think that "we" are an embarrassment.  

But I do understand your disappointment. 

Yes, I did go over board, I lead with my emotions way too much. Thanks Pogi, I do respect your opinion. And I'm angry that the covid isn't dissipating here like other countries. Sorry to play the blame game.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

Don't know for sure how accurate Simon Southerton's FB posted theory is, maybe some feedback?

𝗘𝗹𝗱𝗲𝗿 𝗕𝗲𝗱𝗻𝗮𝗿 𝗶𝘀 𝗵𝗲𝗹𝗽𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗽𝗮𝗻𝗱𝗲𝗺𝗶𝗰 𝘀𝗽𝗿𝗲𝗮𝗱

I have many LDS and former LDS family members and friends, many of whom live in Utah. For many weeks I was openly praising the actions of the LDS Church. While they took too long to close temples, where many of the oldest members regularly attend, they were ahead of the curve with their unilateral decision to close meetinghouses. The number of cases in Utah reflected the success of these responsible social distancing measures.

For two months Utah had one of the lowest rates of spread of the virus. Then Utah started to open up. On the 24th May Mormons went back to church, albeit in groups of less than 100. Almost perfectly on cue, COVID cases started to spike about 5 days later, the mean incubation time for the virus. The growth in cases is now alarming.

It’s unlikely the spike is only the result of Mormons going back to church, since society was starting to leave lockdown around that time, but I have heard reports of wards where there have been clusters. Many Mormons are also full on Trump supporters and are likely to be dismissive of social distancing rules like their president.

On the 17th June Elder Bednar, an apostle and one of the most senior leaders of the Mormon Church, spoke at a law conference on religious freedom via a web link. His talk was reported in the Deseret News and on the LDS website. These are some of Bednar's comments that were quoted in the news reports.

“…𝙞𝙛 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙛𝙖𝙞𝙩𝙝𝙛𝙪𝙡 𝙖𝙧𝙚 𝙣𝙤𝙩 𝙜𝙖𝙩𝙝𝙚𝙧𝙞𝙣𝙜, 𝙨𝙤𝙤𝙣𝙚𝙧 𝙤𝙧 𝙡𝙖𝙩𝙚𝙧 𝙩𝙝𝙚𝙮 𝙬𝙞𝙡𝙡 𝙗𝙚𝙜𝙞𝙣 𝙩𝙤 𝙨𝙘𝙖𝙩𝙩𝙚𝙧”.

“𝙏𝙝𝙚 𝙥𝙤𝙬𝙚𝙧 𝙤𝙛 𝙜𝙤𝙫𝙚𝙧𝙣𝙢𝙚𝙣𝙩 𝙢𝙪𝙨𝙩 𝙝𝙖𝙫𝙚 𝙡𝙞𝙢𝙞𝙩𝙨,”

“𝙏𝙝𝙞𝙨 𝙩𝙞𝙢𝙚 𝙤𝙛 𝙧𝙚𝙨𝙩𝙧𝙞𝙘𝙩𝙞𝙤𝙣 𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝙘𝙤𝙣𝙛𝙞𝙣𝙚𝙢𝙚𝙣𝙩 𝙝𝙖𝙨 𝙘𝙤𝙣𝙛𝙞𝙧𝙢𝙚𝙙 𝙛𝙤𝙧 𝙢𝙚 𝙩𝙝𝙖𝙩 𝙣𝙤 𝙛𝙧𝙚𝙚𝙙𝙤𝙢 𝙞𝙨 𝙢𝙤𝙧𝙚 𝙞𝙢𝙥𝙤𝙧𝙩𝙖𝙣𝙩 𝙩𝙝𝙖𝙣 𝙧𝙚𝙡𝙞𝙜𝙞𝙤𝙪𝙨 𝙛𝙧𝙚𝙚𝙙𝙤𝙢,”

“𝙒𝙝𝙞𝙡𝙚 𝙗𝙚𝙡𝙞𝙚𝙫𝙚𝙧𝙨 𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝙩𝙝𝙚𝙞𝙧 𝙧𝙚𝙡𝙞𝙜𝙞𝙤𝙪𝙨 𝙤𝙧𝙜𝙖𝙣𝙞𝙯𝙖𝙩𝙞𝙤𝙣𝙨 𝙢𝙪𝙨𝙩 𝙗𝙚 𝙜𝙤𝙤𝙙 𝙘𝙞𝙩𝙞𝙯𝙚𝙣𝙨 𝙞𝙣 𝙖 𝙩𝙞𝙢𝙚 𝙤𝙛 𝙘𝙧𝙞𝙨𝙞𝙨, 𝙣𝙚𝙫𝙚𝙧 𝙖𝙜𝙖𝙞𝙣 𝙘𝙖𝙣 𝙬𝙚 𝙖𝙡𝙡𝙤𝙬 𝙜𝙤𝙫𝙚𝙧𝙣𝙢𝙚𝙣𝙩 𝙤𝙛𝙛𝙞𝙘𝙞𝙖𝙡𝙨 𝙩𝙤 𝙩𝙧𝙚𝙖𝙩 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙚𝙭𝙚𝙧𝙘𝙞𝙨𝙚 𝙤𝙛 𝙧𝙚𝙡𝙞𝙜𝙞𝙤𝙣 𝙖𝙨 𝙨𝙞𝙢𝙥𝙡𝙮 𝙣𝙤𝙣𝙚𝙨𝙨𝙚𝙣𝙩𝙞𝙖𝙡.”

Bednar even drew the false equivalence between restricting religious freedom and allowing people to purchase gas. People need gas to buy essential items to sustain life. They don’t need to gather in large numbers in churches to keep them alive!

For a state struggling with a significant spike in COVID cases, calling for less restrictions on gatherings is a thoughtless and poorly-timed message, given he leads the dominant religious group in Utah. Church gatherings are notorious for spreading the virus. Bednar’s comments are dangerous and ill advised and yet the LDS Church widely publicised them on its website and in the major Utah newspaper read by Mormons.

Bednar is forgetting that half the church does not live in the United States. They couldn't care less about the second amendment and the US constitution right now. The only thing most non-Americans know about the US constitution is that it is used to protect the right of Americans to buy semi-automatic weapons so they can shoot their countrymen more efficiently. That is the extent of it.

Many non-US members of the church live in countries with universal health care and strong social safety nets. These countries have far higher levels of trust in their governments, their scientific and health institutions and have for the most part been pretty content to accept that in these exceptional circumstances they need to do what the government has asked of them.

And the benefits of following our non-US government's COVID rules are plain to see. The number of new cases a day in all of Europe now numbers around 4,000 and is falling. In all of Asia, Australia and New Zealand it is far, far less. Australia gets concerned when we have more than 20 cases a day. The US is now approaching 30,000 new cases per day! [The US just topped 36,000 new cases]

It's not hard to imagine how non-US Mormons might feel reading Bednar complaining about government overreach. All I am hearing from my Australian Mormon relatives is praise for the wisdom of our government. There will be many non-US Mormons who will be very confused, if not alarmed, by Bednar’s obsession with individuals liberties and government interference at a time like this.

Bednar's comments will also be misconstrued by large numbers of American Mormons who hang off every word he says. Many will be inclined to feel more cynical about government health regulations and more inclined to flout social distancing rules.

It was a serious error of judgment for the church to publicise Bednar’s comments on the church's website. These views are completely Amerocentric and send a poor message at a critical time in the progress of the pandemic.

𝙏𝙝𝙞𝙨 𝙥𝙤𝙨𝙩 𝙞𝙨 𝙥𝙪𝙗𝙡𝙞𝙘. 𝙋𝙡𝙚𝙖𝙨𝙚 𝙛𝙚𝙚𝙡 𝙛𝙧𝙚𝙚 𝙩𝙤 𝙨𝙝𝙖𝙧𝙚.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/…/bednar-covid-19-…

Edited June 24, 2020 by Tacenda

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

 There will be many non-US Mormons who will be very confused, if not alarmed...

There will be many US Mormons confused and alarmed too.  The good governors in our country deserve better than for their own religious leaders to sew distrust and discord in a time like this.  They acted within their rights and duty to protect and preserve the lives of their people in emergency.  Religious liberty is not paramount to that right and duty of the governor to protect the public in emergency.  That is a dangerous message and a path that no church should go down.  Governors have saved many lives by temporarily shutting down churches in pandemics past.  Their ability to protect the people should never be weakened by the desires of a few to act against all caution, placing the lives of the many in geopardy.  

Edited June 24, 2020 by pogi

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Bednar even drew the false equivalence between restricting religious freedom and allowing people to purchase gas. People need gas to buy essential items to sustain life. They don’t need to gather in large numbers in churches to keep them alive!

I agree that people need to buy gas. But do people need to go inside the convenience store and purchase taquitos, corn dogs, or whatever other fine delicacy that happens to be served up on the "roller grill?"

And is it fair to allow 35+ people to be crammed into such a small space just so they can all get their self-served, over-sized soft drink fix, while simultaneously preventing that same number of people from being able to gather in a sanctuary which happens to be orders of magnitudes larger? 

 

[pogi]

53 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I agree that people need to buy gas. But do people need to go inside the convenience store and purchase taquitos, corn dogs, or whatever other fine delicacy that happens to be served up on the "roller grill?"

And is it fair to allow 35+ people to be crammed into such a small space just so they can all get their self-served, over-sized soft drink fix, while simultaneously preventing that same number of people from being able to gather in a sanctuary which happens to be orders of magnitudes larger? 

 

It's food...     Do you really expect governor's, in the midst of an emergency pandemic, to go through a list of each food vendor and start inspecting each food item they sell, designating some as essential and other's as non-essential based on their nutrition labels and calorie, fat, and sugar content? 

"Oh no, no, no, no, no, that taquito has five more fat grams than allowed."  

"Hey big fella, are those donuts really a "need"?  Now put them back and go pick out some broccoli or something." 

"Nice try pal but the chips isle is restricted!"  

"Pizza...serious....pizza???"

"That better be a diet 7up buddy!  Let me taste...that's sugar, isn't it?  I taste sugar, don't I?  DON'T I???"  

"Think again Mr.!  Now, drop your nachos and kindly exit the building with your hands high...you can buy a salad next door."

"I see your mouth moving, but your belly is doing all the talking.  Lose the tootsie roll!"

Food is food.  The government has no place closing one food vendor and not another because they think people should eat more healthy.

Edited June 24, 2020 by pogi

[ksfisher]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Don't know for sure how accurate Simon Southerton's FB posted theory is, maybe some feedback?

 

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Bednar is forgetting that half the church does not live in the United States. They couldn't care less about the second amendment and the US constitution right now.

Southerton is forgetting that Elder Bednar is not addressing a worldwide audience of church members, but a Religious Freedom Annual Review hosted by BYU Law School. 

Correctly identifying the intended audience helps put anyone's remarks in context.  By ignoring this basic starting point Southerton shows that he is less interested in engaging Elder Bednar's remarks and more interested in criticizing an apostle and attacking the church.

[Amulek]

20 minutes ago, pogi said:

Food is food.  The government has no place closing one food vendor and not another because they think people should eat more healthy.

It's not about whether or not the food is healthy, it's about how the food is served. Have you never been inside a QuikTrip or some other similar gas station?

The food items are left out on warming pins where anyone can touch them (see, e.g., here). There is a sneeze guard, but that doesn't prevent anyone from breathing on or around them. Or from picking one up and then putting it back. It's basically a buffet, only without anyone walking around any of the self-serve items ever - which, in addition to hot food, includes donuts, hand operated slushy-drink machines (which aren't being washed), and publicly available microwaves (cleaned about as often as the slushy machines). 

 

[pogi]

17 minutes ago, Amulek said:

It's not about whether or not the food is healthy, it's about how the food is served. Have you never been inside a QuikTrip or some other similar gas station?

The food items are left out on warming pins where anyone can touch them (see, e.g., here). There is a sneeze guard, but that doesn't prevent anyone from breathing on or around them. Or from picking one up and then putting it back. It's basically a buffet, only without anyone walking around any of the self-serve items ever - which, in addition to hot food, includes donuts, hand operated slushy-drink machines (which aren't being washed), and publicly available microwaves (cleaned about as often as the slushy machines). 

In Utah, self-serve stations and buffets were banned statewide unless they only serve pre-packaged foods.  Was it different in Washington?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

Southerton is forgetting that Elder Bednar is not addressing a worldwide audience of church members, but a Religious Freedom Annual Review hosted by BYU Law School. 

Correctly identifying the intended audience helps put anyone's remarks in context.  By ignoring this basic starting point Southerton shows that he is less interested in engaging Elder Bednar's remarks and more interested in criticizing an apostle and attacking the church.

I was thinking the same thing until I read the section where he repeated the fact the Church put it on their website and widely publicized it.  I don't think he was so much criticizing the choice of the original audience, but the one it was extended to by the Church's media.

Quote

yet the LDS Church widely publicised them on its website and in the major Utah newspaper read by Mormons.

 

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I was thinking the same thing until I read the section where he repeated the fact the Church put it on their website and widely publicized it.  I don't think he was so much criticizing the choice of the original audience, but the one it was extended to by the Church's media.

 

The church did put it on their website, but that still shouldn’t strip the original context from the address.  

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I was thinking the same thing until I read the section where he repeated the fact the Church put it on their website and widely publicized it.  I don't think he was so much criticizing the choice of the original audience, but the one it was extended to by the Church's media.

 

 

51 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

The church did put it on their website, but that still shouldn’t strip the original context from the address.  

Any thinking person ought to be able to extract universal and timeless truths from the scriptures while recognizing the original context in which they were uttered. The same goes for the public addresses of latter-day apostles. 
 

Furthermore, the principles in the U.S. Constitution pertaining to freedom of choice and moral agency do have a divine and scriptural imprimatur and thus do have universal application. He who has ears to hear, let him hear. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

In Utah, self-serve stations and buffets were banned statewide unless they only serve pre-packaged foods.  Was it different in Washington?

Uncertain. I know it was different in Texas though. Buffets were closed along with all other restaurants, but there was no observable difference at gas stations - other than that the price of gas dropped down to levels I haven't seen in years due to the oil market bottoming out. 

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

The church did put it on their website, but that still shouldn’t strip the original context from the address.  

No, of course not, but it adds to it.  The context of the second intended audience needs to be addressed, not ignored. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by Calm

[nuclearfuels]

On 6/17/2020 at 3:08 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

Here’s an important article posted on “Newsroom” on the Church website covering remarks by Elder David A. Bednar to the BYU Law Society. It deals with the importance of preserving religious liberty even during a time of pandemic or other crisis. After giving the link, I’ll post excerpts. But I recommend going there and reading the whole thing. 
 

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/bednar-covid-19-pandemic-religious-freedom

Elder Bednar warned there is a danger in limiting a religious organization’s right to gather. “Gathering, in short, is at the core of faith and religion. Indeed, if the faithful are not gathering, sooner or later they will begin to scatter. And because gathering lies at the very heart of religion, the right to gather lies at the very heart of religious freedom.”

Further from the article:

 

In North America, Elder Bednar pointed out, jurisdictions deemed services related to alcohol, animals and marijuana as essential, while the services of religious organizations were classified as nonessential, even when those activities could be safely conducted.

The senior Church leader cited examples in one state where Catholic priests were barred from anointing a parishioner with holy oil in the performance of last rites, even if that person did not have COVID-19. In the same state, Latter-day Saints were not allowed to perform baptisms. 

“The power of government must have limits,” asserted Elder Bednar.

“This time of restriction and confinement has confirmed for me that no freedom is more important than religious freedom,” said the senior leader of the global faith. “Protecting a person’s physical health from the coronavirus is, of course, important, but so is a person’s spiritual health.”

I think it striking that Elder Bednar used examples involving Catholics as well as Latter-day Saints. As Church members we should be about the business of safeguarding religious freedom for everyone, not just ourselves  

 

Seems like Elder Bednar is speaking to topics President Oaks has often spoken about.

I don't see a conflict between government guidance and Apostolic counsel.

It's like prayer in school - I did it all the time, didn't tell anyone. I don't need permission from the govt to practice my religion and to be honest, prefer having church at my home. 

People at home can not easily manipulate me into going on scout campouts.

If I wanted to baptize one of my children, I would. I don't need a crowd. Most families in our ward have simply postponed thier children's baptism tell this farce is over

I really dont' worry about it, especially since Romney for sure has our best interests at heart.

Edited June 25, 2020 by nuclearfuels

[Tacenda]

Don't go to NY if you're from Utah, residents are banned and may get fined $10,000 if they don't quarantine 2 weeks. Wow, it looks bad. Sadly my county was mentioned in the news as well as having a huge increase of cases. I swear,  hadn't felt like the end was as near as I have today. Quite depressing, but not to everyone, I guess I should be happy about it. But afraid what is next. Today on the news it said the US could be getting a huge dust storm, and California had a 5.8 earthquake yesterday, and the pandemic and the George Floyd BLM...I feel the nation is so divided, that it's got me quite sick to my stomach. I seriously feel bad for those people that are just starting out with families or adulthood, or those in their younger years like in elementary school. I hope this nightmare ends soon. Oh I hope so! Sorry to be so dramatic, very exhausted. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by Tacenda

[MustardSeed]

Tacenda, one gal to another, you will feel significantly better if you grant yourself a week long break from daily internet and news cruising. I’ll send you $50 if I’m wrong .

[Tacenda]

35 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Tacenda, one gal to another, you will feel significantly better if you grant yourself a week long break from daily internet and news cruising. I’ll send you $50 if I’m wrong .

Awww, this right here is a very good suggestion and makes me love this board all the more! I will definitely work on doing this, thanks for being so thoughtful with this comment. Going to start by not watching CNN, and hopefully take a break from FB and all my little private FB groups that I read. 

[Calm]

48 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Awww, this right here is a very good suggestion and makes me love this board all the more! I will definitely work on doing this, thanks for being so thoughtful with this comment. Going to start by not watching CNN, and hopefully take a break from FB and all my little private FB groups that I read. 

You can set your FB to hide someone for 30 days, iirc.  I saw that when I defriended everyone who were more acquaintances than friends that I had friended when I first joined eons ago...and then ignored because it was too much to wade through it all.  I just kept two of those I find very interesting and then some close friends who post only upbeat stuff.  But you could just set it for a break rather than co plate defriending.

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

You can set your FB to hide someone for 30 days, iirc.  I saw that when I defriended everyone who were more acquaintances than friends that I had friended when I first joined eons ago...and then ignored because it was too much to wade through it all.  I just kept two of those I find very interesting and then some close friends who post only upbeat stuff.  But you could just set it for a break rather than co plate defriending.

Thanks, good advice, that's a lot of people, haha!

[CV75]

As a Church we acted in good faith with a new situation and thanked governments for doing their best to protect the public health, and the Church guidelines for resuming group activities (chapels, temples, youth, etc.) are quite a bit more restrictive than those put out by many government jurisdictions. Having this experience, it is good to assess where we can do better in preserving freedom of religious expression while determining our own guidelines which are quite conservative anyway.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

As a Church we acted in good faith with a new situation and thanked governments for doing their best to protect the public health, 

I agree that we did things right in the beginning, however Elder Bednar is now accusing governments of violating religious liberty in an unprecedented way, demanding that it never happen again.  Not a very sincere thank you.

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

and the Church guidelines for resuming group activities (chapels, temples, youth, etc.) are quite a bit more restrictive than those put out by many government jurisdictions.  Having this experience, it is good to assess where we can do better in preserving freedom of religious expression while determining our own guidelines which are quite conservative anyway.

We have given governor's power and authority in emergency situations to determine guidelines and enforce them in the interest of saving lives and public health.  To give churches authority to make their own guidelines would be a disaster.  They are not privileged with the same resources the governor has to make these decisions.  They do not have access to top health experts with inside knowledge of outbreak areas and other important data in decision making.  Why should religion be privileged and immune from executive order when no one else is?    If you leave it up to some churches, they would continue gathering in mega churches with thousands.  Even with restrictions, some churches refuse to follow them and we see huge outbreaks like in Oregon.  No way in heck should religion be given this kind of immunity and be expected to act in appropriate ways in determining their own guidelines in emergency pandemics.  

The CDC discourages singing.  The church has not.  In Utah, the church is gathering in groups of 99 and singing together in areas where the rest of the population is limited to gathering sizes of 20.  We certainly are taking advantage of a special privilege that we should not have.  I think we started out on the right foot, but we are not being conservative anymore (at least here).

Edited June 25, 2020 by pogi

[ksfisher]

14 minutes ago, pogi said:

We have given governor's power and authority in emergency situations to determine guidelines and enforce them in the interest of saving lives and public health.

 

14 minutes ago, pogi said:

In Utah, the church is gathering in groups of 99 and singing together in areas where the rest of the population is limited to gathering sizes of 20.  We certainly are taking advantage of a special privilege that we should not have.

So you're saying that the governor can set the rules and we should follow those rules (agreed).  But when the governor's rules say that a church can do something we shouldn't do it?