Church and Naacp Release Joint Statement on Recent Violence

[Tacenda]

20 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Tacenda, is your police cam edited? or uncut?

It comes from the police, so if it is it was them. I tried to watch every minute but 3 hours is a long time, so fast forwarded through some of it. I just think they handled it wrong, and believe they feel bad. They probably did not want the outcome it had. 

[rodheadlee]

Thank You Tacenda.

[Meadowchik]

11 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Oh, please!  I doubt you have have any idea what goes into training law enforcement officers.

You mean, like this?

Or this?

Or this?

Or this?

Or this?

Or this?

 

Just for the record, you have provided six links, for Apex Officer, Dolan Consulting Group, Police One, Power DMS, CIT International, and Police Chief Magazine. All the pages are titled relevant to de-escalation training. The first four are all commercial training services or  combination of related products, the CIT one is a joint consulting collaboration effort dot.org, and the last is a dot.org magazine. (It would probably be a good idea to introduce what you are linking a bit more specifically.)

So these are not necesarily representative of standard police training. Here's a sample form from North Carolina, for example, containing study areas for basic training in law enforcement.

What I am talking about is the overall approach of law enforcement culture and training. I think that the links you provided are pretty clear anecdotal evidence that people are willing to pay for or collaborate for these types of resources to supplement basic police education, meaning that the basics have been or are insufficient. It's unfortunate that it is liability insurance carriers which are the ones making a dent in police training standards. It is good that such influence is coming from somewhere, though, towards American police reform.

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by Meadowchik

[Tacenda]

On 6/26/2020 at 2:19 AM, Amulek said:

I watched the entire, uncut, video (warning: significant language), and they guy was never in any danger.

After ignoring multiple orders from the officer - including after being informed he was being detained - the cop did, ultimately draw his taser and hold it at his ribs, pointing towards the ground.

After continued non-compliance, the officer eventually draw his firearm and (again) held it against his chest, pointed toward the ground.

The officer was calm and professional throughout the entire encounter, and the independent report of the incident found that there was no evidence of racial bias on the part of the officer involved. 

Incidentally, I found the Facebook video that you posted to be highly misleading at the end, where it deals with the faculty member's arrival and how the incident is resolved.

They cut the film together to make it look like this white guy shows up, says that the fellow lives there, and the cops all just totally take him at his word - you know, because he's white, and cops are obviously all racist. 

And to drive the point home about just how racist the cops are, they make sure to overlay the following commentary during that section of the video, "The police officers never asked the faculty member, a white man, to confirm his identity or prove that he worked for the college."  [emphasis in original]

When, in reality, the faculty member doesn't show up until the very end of the standoff, after the police had already had somebody go into the building and confirm with two residents that the guy did, in fact, live there, and the Sargent on the scene had already instructed the officer to return the student's ID and take off.

In other words, the police officers didn't bother with confirming the "white man's" identity - not because he was white, but because they had all of the information necessary to close out their investigation already - making his identity totally irrelevant at that point. 

 

You say he wasn't in any danger, but like Elijah, he very well could have died because of this altercation. I like these comments in the bold from the link...

"Wah wah wah he should have listened and sat down" says all the white people that won't ever go through this. 

So did he think he was stealing.....trash?

Also, the officer called dispatch and says that he was carrying a blunt object...what the ? He knows full well it's a trash picker. I guess that's why all the cops left what they were doing to help this policeman, sadly. It's clearly racial profiling, first on the person that called in and then it continued with the first police officer.

Now, last but not least, how would you feel if you were picking up trash as a job, and several police question/surround you about it? And if you were black, now how would you feel?

Are we in America???

 

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by Tacenda

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Just for the record, you have provided six links, for Apex Officer, Dolan Consulting Group, Police One, Power DMS, CIT International, and Police Chief Magazine. All the pages are titled relevant to de-escalation training. The first four are all commercial training services or  combination of related products, the CIT one is a joint consulting collaboration effort dot.org, and the last is a dot.org magazine. (It would probably be a good idea to introduce what you are linking a bit more specifically.)

So these are not necesarily representative of standard police training. Here's a sample form from North Carolina, for example, containing study areas for basic training in law enforcement.

What I am talking about is the overall approach of law enforcement culture and training. I think that the links you provided are pretty clear anecdotal evidence that people are willing to pay for or collaborate for these types of resources to supplement basic police education, meaning that the basics have been or are insufficient. It's unfortunate that it is liability insurance carriers which are the ones making a dent in police training standards. It is good that such influence is coming from somewhere, though, towards American police reform.

 

 

 

Can you possibly be any more  condescending?

With your stellar qualifications, I'm sure the benighted masses can use you on your local Civilian Review Board.  You should send the board your resume.  Good luck!

Edited June 27, 2020 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

You say he wasn't in any danger, but like Elijah, he very well could have died because of this altercation. I like these comments in the bold from the link...

"Wah wah wah he should have listened and sat down" says all the white people that won't ever go through this. 

So did he think he was stealing.....trash?

Also, the officer called dispatch and says that he was carrying a blunt object...what the ? He knows full well it's a trash picker. I guess that's why all the cops left what they were doing to help this policeman, sadly. It's clearly racial profiling, first on the person that called in and then it continued with the first police officer.

Now, last but not least, how would you feel if you were picking up trash as a job, and several police question/surround you about it? And if you were black, now how would you feel?

Are we in America???

 

 

"It's only a ..." has gotten more than a few police officers killed, Tacenda.  And "racial profiling"?  Tell me again which one of the officers mentioned race, and when?  Listen to police officers?  Yep.  Do what they tell you to do, even if you think they're being unreasonable?  Yep.  Later on, you can complain to anyone who will listen about how racist, unreasonable, et cetera the cops were being.  The media eat that stuff up, so it's not as if you won't find anyone to listen to you. You can complain to the officer's department.  You can file a complaint with the agency responsible for certifying police officers in the jurisdiction.  And you can even file a lawsuit if you want to do that.  But then and there?  Yep.  Listen.  Do exactly what they tell you to do, exactly when they tell you to do it.

[Meadowchik]

38 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Can you possibly be any more  condescending?

With your stellar qualifications, I'm sure the benighted masses can use you on your local Civilian Review Board.  You should send the board your resume.  Good luck!

Yikes. I promise I tried to construct a substantive and respectful reply to yours:

12 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Oh, please!  I doubt you have have any idea what goes into training law enforcement officers.

 

[Kenngo1969]

16 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Yikes. I promise I tried to construct a substantive and respectful reply to yours:

 

Like I said, I'm sure the benighted masses in your local law enforcement agency can use your expertise on the local Civilian Review Board, and will look forward to receiving your resume.  No doubt, you will be leading the vanguard in police reform that is so desperately needed!  Good luck!

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

"It's only a ..." has gotten more than a few police officers killed, Tacenda.  And "racial profiling"?  Tell me again which one of the officers mentioned race, and when?  Listen to police officers?  Yep.  Do what they tell you to do, even if you think they're being unreasonable?  Yep.  Later on, you can complain to anyone who will listen about how racist, unreasonable, et cetera the cops were being.  The media eat that stuff up, so it's not as if you won't find anyone to listen to you. You can complain to the officer's department.  You can file a complaint with the agency responsible for certifying police officers in the jurisdiction.  And you can even file a lawsuit if you want to do that.  But then and there?  Yep.  Listen.  Do exactly what they tell you to do, exactly when they tell you to do it.

This is the thing that confuses me so often when the TV starts up with a video of a conflict between police officers - all officers of every color - and Blacks - or anyone else in a conflict. The officer gives very specific instructions and what does the individual do? Ignore, resist, attempts to take the officer's gun, etc. Where do these people grow up and who teaches them this kind of behavior?

I have been stopped a few times for speeding. I don't do a thing unless the officer tells me. I don't attempt to get my documents out until the officer arrives at my window and asks; then I tell him what I am doing before I do - My license is in my wallet. I will take it out now." "My insurance card is in my glove compartment; I will get it now."  My dad taught me to do that. 

But to resist arrest, take a gun and then want to complain about being put on the ground, tazed, or even shot. Before you do anything you look in the mirror and tell yourself you are an idiot. Why is it so difficult to respect a person in authority?  

[rodheadlee]

On 6/26/2020 at 9:27 AM, Meadowchik said:

It's rather natural for militarised police to behave the way they do because that is the mentality of their training. I would say it's more like they're trained as robots as in given the primary operating system of force, where it is very difficult to switch out of that MO. 

This is a major characteristic that needs to change. De-escalation, including emotional maturity training, also simply defunding the militarised approach and diverting funds to community approaches to managing nonviolent issues of public safety.

These types of police reform can benefit police, by not only broadening their skillset and modus operandi but also relieving them of some duties that are better suiting to others.

If the police were militarized they would use real bullets, not rubber bullets. After a day of using real bullets there would be no more riots.  This happened once during the Rodney King riots in Las Vegas. No I don't have a link but I was living there at the time. We all went armed.

[Amulek]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

You say he wasn't in any danger, but like Elijah, he very well could have died because of this altercation. I like these comments in the bold from the link...

"Wah wah wah he should have listened and sat down" says all the white people that won't ever go through this. 

Well, count me in with the group of people (white or otherwise) who thinks he should have sat the heck down.

When a cop orders you to do something, the absolute safest course of action is to comply. 

When you fail to comply with a law enforcement officer's orders (lawful or not), you are only going to escalate the situation and potentially get yourself hurt or killed.

The time to get justice for misuse of authority is in a courtroom where you're surrounded by attorneys and judges - not on the street when it's just you and the police. 

 

Quote

Also, the officer called dispatch and says that he was carrying a blunt object...what the ? He knows full well it's a trash picker. I guess that's why all the cops left what they were doing to help this policeman, sadly.

Almost anything can be used as a weapon. He needed backup because he was the only officer on scene, the guy was becoming increasingly agitated, and and he was refusing to comply with orders. If the situation were to continue to escalate, he would need another officer there for assistance or at least be a witness.

 

Quote

It's clearly racial profiling, first on the person that called in and then it continued with the first police officer.

You're confusing the stories. Nobody called anybody. And perhaps you should go back and read the independent report into the incident which I posted earlier - they concluded that race has nothing to do with the encounter. 

 

Quote

Now, last but not least, how would you feel if you were picking up trash as a job, and several police question/surround you about it? And if you were black, now how would you feel?

I have been questioned by the police before - including, within the last six months, for trespassing and attempted robbery (actually a really funny story). 

When I haven't been certain as to why they were questioning me I generally feel confused at first, because I am trying to puzzle out what they are looking for. So I usually just ask them. Sometimes they'll tell you, sometimes not. 

But so long as you remain calm and cordial, everything usually works out just fine. 

 

[Meadowchik]

58 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

If the police were militarized they would use real bullets, not rubber bullets. After a day of using real bullets there would be no more riots.  This happened once during the Rodney King riots in Las Vegas. No I don't have a link but I was living there at the time. We all went armed.

The militarisation of US police is well-documented.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Meadowchik

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

If the police were militarized they would use real bullets, not rubber bullets.

Rubber bullets were invented for the military:

https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Rubber_bullet

Quote

Rubber bullets were invented by the British Ministry of Defence for use against rioters in Northern Ireland during The Troubles.^[8] They were first used in 1970 in Northern Ireland

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by Calm

[rodheadlee]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

Rubber bullets were invented for the military:

https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Rubber_bullet

 

Ok, I'm wrong. But what happened in Vegas was real.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

Ok, I'm wrong. But what happened in Vegas was real.

I see that as highly likely, but having read some reports can’t say I have no doubt now.  Gunfire was reported, and it was also reported that officers drew their guns, so even if them firing was not reported, I think there was a good chance it happened. 

Added:

https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/local-las-vegas/when-las-vegas-westside-boiled-over-after-rodney-king-verdicts-in-1992/

Here’s one that reports exchanges:

Quote

On April 30, black residents of the west side began to loot and burn stores and gun battles occurred at major intersections between rioters and police.

https://www.blackpast.org/african-american-history/west-las-vegas-riot-1992/

It should be pointed out imo that rubber bullets are being fired at times at nonviolent individuals as well as those throwing nothing worse than water bottles**** (which while a thunk and possibly painful, with wearing helmets and using shields and other riot gear is not that harmful and much less harmful than rubber bullets or other things fired from a gun or launcher), so I am thinking you are not suggesting real bullets be used in the same way as rubber bullets are currently being used. 

***I am not saying these are the only things being thrown at police, just that there are documented cases of use of rubber bullets and other things when police were not threatened with bodily injury. 

Edited June 27, 2020 by Calm

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

... It should be pointed out imo that rubber bullets are being fired at times at nonviolent individuals as well as those throwing nothing worse than water bottles**** (which while a thunk and possibly painful, with wearing helmets and using shields and other riot gear is not that harmful and much less harmful than rubber bullets or other things fired from a gun or launcher) ...

More evidence that police can't win, then, because, supposedly, the sight of police in riot gear tends to inflame crowds.  Whaddayagonna do?

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

This is the thing that confuses me so often when the TV starts up with a video of a conflict between police officers - all officers of every color - and Blacks - or anyone else in a conflict. The officer gives very specific instructions and what does the individual do? Ignore, resist, attempts to take the officer's gun, etc. Where do these people grow up and who teaches them this kind of behavior?

I have been stopped a few times for speeding. I don't do a thing unless the officer tells me. I don't attempt to get my documents out until the officer arrives at my window and asks; then I tell him what I am doing before I do - My license is in my wallet. I will take it out now." "My insurance card is in my glove compartment; I will get it now."  My dad taught me to do that. 

But to resist arrest, take a gun and then want to complain about being put on the ground, tazed, or even shot. Before you do anything you look in the mirror and tell yourself you are an idiot. Why is it so difficult to respect a person in authority?  

I'll admit he should have complied, but really don't you think it odd that he was being interrogated like that? Like he was committing a crime? Really wonder if police are bored or something. 

[Meadowchik]

13 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

This is the thing that confuses me so often when the TV starts up with a video of a conflict between police officers - all officers of every color - and Blacks - or anyone else in a conflict. The officer gives very specific instructions and what does the individual do? Ignore, resist, attempts to take the officer's gun, etc. Where do these people grow up and who teaches them this kind of behavior?

I have been stopped a few times for speeding. I don't do a thing unless the officer tells me. I don't attempt to get my documents out until the officer arrives at my window and asks; then I tell him what I am doing before I do - My license is in my wallet. I will take it out now." "My insurance card is in my glove compartment; I will get it now."  My dad taught me to do that. 

But to resist arrest, take a gun and then want to complain about being put on the ground, tazed, or even shot. Before you do anything you look in the mirror and tell yourself you are an idiot. Why is it so difficult to respect a person in authority?  

Shock and trauma can disrupt a person's ability to follow directions.

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Shock and trauma can disrupt a person's ability to follow directions.

And fear isn't a good path to respect.

[USU78]

5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Shock and trauma can disrupt a person's ability to follow directions.

Evidence that this is the problem and not maleducation and malacculturization consists of?

[Meadowchik]

28 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Evidence that this is the problem and not maleducation and malacculturization consists of?

If you want to try to show that maleducation and malacculturization are the cause, go for it. 

[USU78]

54 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

If you want to try to show that maleducation and malacculturization are the cause, go for it. 

Deflection after argument by assertion.

Understood. 🙄 I imagine this is the shock and fear in action:

https://nypost.com/2020/05/30/male-baltimore-cop-knocks-woman-out-in-shocking-video/

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by USU78

[Meadowchik]

17 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Deflection after argument by assertion.

Understood. 🙄 I imagine this is the shock and fear in action:

https://nypost.com/2020/05/30/male-baltimore-cop-knocks-woman-out-in-shocking-video/

 

What did I deflect from? Why would I help you make your own argument?

Dude, you really need to take responsibility for your own ideas here. This is becoming a chronic behaviour with you in this thread.

That shock and trauma can disrupt a person's ability to follow directions is a scientific fact. If you want to discuss the implications of this with me further, or where I am actually going with it, you can simply ask. 

[Rain]

15 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

More evidence that police can't win, then, because, supposedly, the sight of police in riot gear tends to inflame crowds.  Whaddayagonna do?

Did I already post about this?   Really sorry if I double post.  I've talked about it in other places and I'm mixed just where I have discussed it. 

 I learned about this from reading The Culture Code: The Secrets of Highly Successful Groups Kindle Edition by chance as the riots were getting started.

Daniel Coyle, the author, talked about the 2014 Football tournament in Portugal.  They expected to have quite a bit of violence that came along with it.  They started looking at the different ways to protect themselves with weapons etc, but they also looked at research done by Clifford Stott, including the riots in 1992. 

Clifford suggested they go about things a little differently.  Instead of going in the start with riot gear he suggested that they send in their most friendly officers that could build trust and relationships with the people. Long story short, it worked.

Coyle talked about little cues that leaders and groups give that we might not recognize are happening that will help direct what happens in crowds/groups, but that we can consciously use as well. Things such as what they are wearing, how they are armed, how they interact with the crowds.

So officers CAN win, but if they go in with the idea of win/win like Steven Covey talks about then things can go much better than we often see spread across the news.

Anyway, that got me interested so I did a search for Stott. I found his twitter account and he tweeted a link to a part of a show titled, "Policing Expert: Protests Are 'Opportunity to Solidify Relationships' Between Law Enforcement, Communities where Ed Maguire was interviewed.  

Ed Maguire had some really interesting things to say and I would love to read more from him sometime.  He wrote a guide for police (which I haven't found yet) that he suggests be read by police officers.  I would seriously love to see this happen after learning a little about it.  I know initially it could be scary, but oh how cool the effects could be. 

 Something Maguire said:

Every police leader in the country right now should be viewing these protests as an opportunity to solidify the relationships they have with their community. This should not be an us verses them thing. This should be an us and them thing. We are all in it together. Let's use this opportunity to have dialog about how to improve policing in our community, in our little corner of the world and form enduring relationships with the many aspects and the many groups in out community so these kinds of unfortunately events don't happen here.

Edited June 28, 2020 by Rain

[Nacho2dope]

On 6/27/2020 at 9:01 AM, Tacenda said:

You say he wasn't in any danger, but like Elijah, he very well could have died because of this altercation. I like these comments in the bold from the link...

"Wah wah wah he should have listened and sat down" says all the white people that won't ever go through this. 

So did he think he was stealing.....trash?

Also, the officer called dispatch and says that he was carrying a blunt object...what the ? He knows full well it's a trash picker. I guess that's why all the cops left what they were doing to help this policeman, sadly. It's clearly racial profiling, first on the person that called in and then it continued with the first police officer.

Now, last but not least, how would you feel if you were picking up trash as a job, and several police question/surround you about it? And if you were black, now how would you feel?

Are we in America???

 

 

I think its unfortunate that you would say "all white people say this."  If you are watching the protest at all there are several, "white people" that would never make this statement. There are several other races that would, as I would, make this statement to listen to and follow police instruction.